MissouriPicker Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 We've reached a point where we have wood that is already opened-up, on guitars that literally tunes themselves. Next, we'll have guitars that already have the songs in them. It'll be like cable TV. You pick the bands (channels) you want and the songs you want to appear to be playing. Sounds like science-fiction, but technology makes it all possible. I hope we don't lose what playing a musical instrument is all about. We've already got people making millions of dollars for making music without musical instruments....I'm not slamming any of it. I imagine some of this wood is going to look really cool and sound equally cool.. It's just a bit sad. Everything has to be instant gratification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 It's just a bit sad. Everything has to be instant gratification. Though I'm among the people who look forward to actually trying a 'torrefried', I follow your thought. The fine route ahead while a top (whole guitar) opens up, is one of the beautiful aspects and thrills about a deep relationship with an acoustic guitar. Yet as we know, it doesn't really start until 5 years in. The pre-fried tops might be artificial (and who knows how they develop) - still they are a way to take a serious jump forward. A looser broken in guitar is attractive - and half a decade and more to see it happen is worth the journey. But not everyone has the time to wait 3 x 10, , , or the cash and guts to get a 40-50 year blessed oldie. Anyway - pretty exciting it is. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Though I'm among the people who look forward to actually trying a 'torrefried', I follow your thought. The fine route ahead while a top (whole guitar) opens up, is one of the beautiful aspects and thrills about a deep relationship with an acoustic guitar. Yet as we know, it doesn't really start until 5 years in. The pre-fried tops might be artificial (and who knows how they develop) - still they are a way to take a serious jump forward. A looser broken in guitar is attractive - and half a decade and more to see it happen is worth the journey. But not everyone has the time to wait 3 x 10, , , or the cash and guts to get a 40-50 year blessed oldie. Anyway - pretty exciting it is. . The Martin D28 Authentic 1937 is what has got the juices, and cash registers, ticking. Now they have toasted tops as well. They were designed for guitarists that want an identical NEW copy of the famous and very expensive collector only model 1937 D28, but at a fair price instead of the price of a house and car. Of course, the guitarists also don't want to wait any longer than they have to for the guitar to "break in", and also don't want vintage guitar repair bills. The other guitar companies can now get torrefied wood from suppliers, so have joined in the fun. BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Richlite bridge! I'm pretty sure that was just a typo. lots of that on their website and Gibson paperwork. Looms like RW and wouldn't be any reason to use a RW board and then try to fake an ebony bridge. I also just checked the actual spec sheet release from Gibson to dealers and it says rosewood bridge and NO electronics. I would trust that sheet more than the MF website. I have the prototype here too.... rw and no pickup. -Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigshot Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think I prefer to age along with my guitar. I'm in no hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think I prefer to age along with my guitar. I'm in no hurry. There is the reason for a lot of the impatience! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think I prefer to age along with my guitar. I'm in no hurry. You can say that if you're young, but not at my age! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 It's just a bit sad. Everything has to be instant gratification. Amen. I'm so very bored with techno-wizardry & most of what it's spun off. A phrase that almost makes me want to puke is: "When it went viral." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phelonious Ponk Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 It looks like Musicans Friend has them on the web site. The j 45 is listed at $3999 and it says will ship July 17 th. Wow. That's full retail. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Sort of. There is no MSRP anymore. Just MAP now. Only one price. It's about time. No one looked at the MSRP anyway Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 $4000 for the torrefied J45. That's a real jump in price over the old J45 standard. They'll likely start phasing-out the standards due to obsolescence and better ways of burning wood............ Then, about seventy-five years from now there will be all this talk about the incredible J45s that were built during the Ferguson-era at Gibson and the big news will be that the guitar is being brought back with its original "kiln dried" Sitka top for the warm and unmatchable tone the J45 was known for............... Kind of like the Ford Mustang. They improved it so much that it wasn't the Mustang anymore....It's called progress. [thumbup] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm with you Missouri , I like progress but , and I'm sorry for my feelings, torrified tops just sounds like a bit of marketing. Would you buy a wine that was supposedly aged? A steak that didn't need to be hung for as long due to a miracle discovery? In the world of instant gratification they will sell well . and those who forked out the money for them will , of course, write fantastic reviews. And on we go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 One question I have is whether a torrefied top continues to age, or if the torrefaction process, because of how it changes the basic wood structure, "locks" the top into a fixed condition. I guess we're in unknown territory here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I liked MSRP…….50% of MSRP was what the dealer paid for the guitar….always good information to have when shopping……so $3999 for a J-45 with a $15 dollar upgraded top???……that makes sense….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 So if you have a baked top and the brace material is not torrefied what will happen? Is the bridge plate torrefied? How about the bridge? It seems like there could be some room for a problem if the top doesn't change but the braces that are glued to the top expand and contract as well as the bridge plate. What will happen if the sides and back shrink and expand with humidity changes but the top stays the same? I know it's nitpicking but.....Has anyone done their homework on this? I would think there could be a lot of stress building up especially on a top that is under stress from the built in 28 foot radius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm with Hogeye on this one…..these tops have only been in existence a few years now….how does anyone know the longterm life and performance of these guitars? This is NOT the crystallization of resins that happens over time as in vintage guitars, perhaps this process weakens the natural strength of the wood fibers themselves, causing early decay of the wood??? I think the jury is still out on this method…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I have to say that i'm pretty shocked at how fast this one has gotten demonized. Completely shot down while admitting to having never played one or knowing much about it. but we have already decided that it's bad and that it won't hold up. We have even criticized people who may buy it in the future because they like it (and pre determined that they are wrong in liking it). I usually don't call anybody out like this, but I felt like the internet message forum mob rule effect was getting a little too strong here. Other than that, I have seen it compared to the J45 Standard in pricing which isn't really fair. This is a replacement for the J45TV. So it's really not as big of a price hike as it would seem if you compared to that. Along with how everything else has gone up (inflation, etc) then it really isn't too much of an upcharge for the torrefied top. Much better than the deal Martin offers. Also, MSRP hasn't been double the delaer cost. at least not from Gibson. But even if it was, it shouldn't mean too much. a guitar is worth whatever it's worth regardless of what was paid for it by the seller. Several years ago I ended up with a 59 Strat for $400. It's a long story but the seller was completely aware of what it was and the deal was completely fair. anyway....... how much was that Strat worth? did it matter that I only had $400 in it? again, I don't mean to ruffle any feathers and I do apologize, but I felt like this thread was running out of control and not the usual fair judgement I am used to seeing here. Again, I apologize if I insulted anyone. I don't mean to. now, just to show I am not simply pro-Gibson biased....... I am not thinking the Progressives will be good. I can't stand the GForce on the electrics. I have never been a fan of TOM bridges on acoustics. So, I haven't held them yet... but I have never liked the parts going into it. I don't foresee good things. Maybe I will be surprised. -Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie King Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 From what I read about Martin tops the braces are included in the process at least that was my understanding. There are already inherent stresses from different woods when it comes to aging and so forth but if torrification adds to those stresses I cannot say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 . All are typical of complaints that follow when technology or knowledge causes a change a product's traditional components and/or structure. Some justified, some not, but eventually it will shake out and the changes will either stay or get dropped. Some manufactures have bought into torrefaction, but AFAIK Gibson is the only one to go heavy into auto-tuning. I wasn't surprised to see it the Epiphone acoustics, but now a Gibson model. Curious to see how that does. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 From what I read about Martin tops the braces are included in the process at least that was my understanding. There are already inherent stresses from different woods when it comes to aging and so forth but if torrification adds to those stresses I cannot say. To some extent, I believe a torrefied top is likely to be more dimensionally stable over time. As you say, there are already stresses from different bits of the guitar expanding and contracting in different ways. I doubt a torrefied top will have much impact on this aspect of it. Even kiln-dried wood takes time to adjust to changes in humidity, particularly when one side of it is sealed. I think Keith is probably right. I would really like to play one of these alongside an analogous guitar, maybe at J-45 TV. And maybe a J-45 Legend as well. I find the concept of torrefaction really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Don't get me wrong. I'm not poo pooing anything that I haven't played. And I'm certainly not against'new' things. I do hope the new science is a ground breaker ! And may modoc sell loads of guitars :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 To some extent, I believe a torrefied top is likely to be more dimensionally stable over time. As you say, there are already stresses from different bits of the guitar expanding and contracting in different ways. I doubt a torrefied top will have much impact on this aspect of it. Even kiln-dried wood takes time to adjust to changes in humidity, particularly when one side of it is sealed. ... I've seen some claims that torrefaction that goes to the point of crystallizing the resins causes the wood to more stable and less reactive to temperature and humidity changes. So, I'm curious about the baking recipe - if all the manufacturers that are into torrefaction are using more or less the same procedures, temperatures and times, or if there are some significant differences. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Disagreeing on this is like politics. Only in politics it's who's ox is getting gored. In guitars, it's who's *** is getting torrefied. ......Still, it's fun to joke about this stuff, especially when you can playfully push a few of the right buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm sorry…..bringing up un-answered questions about the technology is not DEMONIZING….lol…..using Hyperbole like "demonizing" and then claiming to be trying to calm down the thread is a bit hypocritical I would say……These questions are valid and the industry who is marking up the use of these woods to great profit, has a bit of responsibility to educate the public on questions of longevity, differential shrinking, and other valid questions brought up in this thread…… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm sorry…..bringing up un-answered questions about the technology is not DEMONIZING….lol…..using Hyperbole like "demonizing" and then claiming to be trying to calm down the thread is a bit hypocritical I would say……These questions are valid and the industry who is marking up the use of these woods to great profit, has a bit of responsibility to educate the public on questions of longevity, differential shrinking, and other valid questions brought up in this thread…… The thing that made me use that word wasn't just having questions. that's cool and should happen. absolutely. and yes, it is up to them to show the value. it just seemed like some people were passing judgement before having too much info or experience with them yet and setting up criticism of people who will buy them in the future for one reason or another. perhaps demonizing was too harsh of a word though. I can admit that. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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