Even in my insignificant country we're not safe anymore

[Digger]

I see/hear a lot our, ours, their, theirs, we, us, them, they from all parties and points of view whenever this issue is discussed (I don't mean on here, I mean in general) and I think it betrays the real feelings beneath very often. All the while there is percieved 'groups' of people there is no "US" (in capitals).

 

While there is no "US" there is always the oportunity to believe the press, the hype and the BS but more importantly, all the doors to mutual respect amd understanding are locked.

 

We are human beings, responsible as a whole for ourselves. If everyone who thinks they are blameless (that's everyone, ever noticed) as an individual, group, nation, race or religion just did everthing they could to foster harmony we would have half a chance.

 

Throughout our evolution we evolved in small groups, our tribes or clans.

 

Now we seek to align with others for one reason or another, sporting teams, towns, cities, countries. or religious groups. In the past we used to attack neighbouring clans, not necessarily because they did anything to us, but because they were different! We'd enslave their women and children and kill the men and whilst I'm not saying that is good, at least it gave us genetic diversity which was needed at the time.

 

Forcing peoples of dissimilar race or backgrounds into crowded cities is fraught as there are always going to be tensions. Even for similar people, the high density living of today brings problems, one possible example is the growing trend of road rage.

 

I'm not sure that there is a quick answer as we still have a long way to travel before our natural tendencies work their way out of us but as we only have a handful of millennia from that to this, it isn't hard to see why things are the way they are.

 

Perhaps he ultimate result of the intermingling will be that there won't be anymore "them" just "us"?

 

[charlie brown]

Another thing to think about:

 

 

 

CB

[Digger]

Another thing to think about:

 

 

 

CB

 

 

I'll be dead by then~

[charlie brown]

I'll be dead by then~

 

But, your children and grandchildren won't be. Unless they're slaughtered, by the hordes!

 

 

CB

[jdgm]

Here's a report into the enquiry of the Rotherham incident if your after another source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-35873469

As the Council of Europe's human rights Commissioner I would expect him to be quite well advised.

I never said it carried any legal weight.

Excuse me Ian - I was referring only to the Eurocrat silliness outlined in your last para, not the horrible Rotherham stuff.

I am not arguing and from experience agree with what you say about some attitudes towards women.

 

But Nils Muižnieks obviously doesn't understand English and the meaning of "illegal" properly.

His statement as reported is predicated on an evident misunderstanding/misinterpretation of that word so I have to presume he's ignorant about it.

Evidently his advisers are too, if he has any; I would have hoped someone would have had the sense to tell him 1) it's not a good time, look outside - and 2) don't be a prat.

 

My Dad always used to say - "Never ask a man how he votes!"

[milod]

Just a note here before I get back to writing of rail transload facilities, high school athletes and such...

 

m

 

Those interested in "sci fi" may be interested in this book from the Baen Free Library:

 

http://www.baen.com/categories/free-library/caliphate.html?filter=helpful&order=DESC

 

The author did IMHO a pretty good job of research, and then logical extension of possibilities of what we're seeing today, especially given increasing numbers of de facto Islamic settlements in Europe and then the inevitable reactions worldwide, none of which are such to make many of us pleased at the possibilities. There's no heroic winning culture, in ways, in this tome.

 

Again, some of the research, and one may check the quotes below online rather easily:

 

Islam is a revolutionary ideology and program which seeks to alter the social order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals. Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the Earth which are opposed to the ideology and program of Islam, regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it.

—Sayyed Abul Ala Maududi,

founder of Pakistan's Jamaat-e-Islami, April, 1939

 

=-0=-0

 

We have the right to kill four million Americans—two million of them children — and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands.

—Suleiman Abu Gheith

Al Qaeda Spokesmen, June 2002.

 

It is permissible to set fire to the lands of the enemy, his stores of grain, his beasts of burden—if it is not possible for the Muslims to take possession of them—as well as to cut down his trees, to raze his cities, in a word, to do everything that might ruin and discourage him, provided that the imam (i.e. the religious "guide" of the community of believers) deems these measures appropriate, suited to hastening the Islamization of that enemy or to weakening him. Indeed, all this contributes to a military triumph over him or to forcing him to capitulate.

—Ibn Hudayl,

fourteenth-century Granadan theorist on the subject of jihad

 

=-0

 

I will not blame Norwegian women for the rapes. But Norwegian women must understand that we live in a multi-cultural society and adapt themselves to it.

—Professor Unni Wikan, Oslo, Norway,

6 September 2001

 

-=0=0

 

But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer al-Rafee says, "If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she's wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don't happen."

—Sheik Taj Din Al Hilaly

 

 

=-0

 

Where now is the ancient wealth and dignity of the Romans? The Romans of old were most powerful; now we are without strength. They were feared; now it is we who are fearful. The barbarians paid them tribute; now we are the tributaries of the barbarians. Our enemies make us pay for the very light of day and our right to life has to be bought. Oh, what miseries are ours! To what a state we have descended! We even have to thank the barbarians for the right to buy ourselves off them. What could be more humiliating and miserable?

—Salvian of Marseilles, 5th Century AD

 

=-=-=

 

"They [those who claim Islam is against slavery] are merely writers. They are ignorant, not scholars . . . Whoever says such things is an infidel. Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."

— Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, Saudi cleric, author of the bestselling textbook, al Tawheed (Monotheism) and imam of the Prince Mataeb Mosque, Riyadh, 2003 (circa 1423 AH)

 

=-=-=-=-

 

These Germans, these atheists, these Europeans don't shave under their arms and their sweat collects under their hair with a revolting smell and they stink. Hell lives for the infidels! Down with all democracies and all democrats!"

—Imam Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah Al-Amari,

Preaching the Friday sermon in a Berlin Mosque, 2006

 

=-0=-0=-0

The Europeans were once our slaves; today it is the Muslims. This must change. We must drive the unbelievers into deepest hell. We must stick together and hold our peace until the time comes. You can't see anything yet, but everything is being prepared in secret. You must hold yourself in readiness for the right moment. We must exploit democracy for our cause. We must cover Europe with mosques and schools.

—Sermon recorded in a Bavarian mosque, Early 21st Century

 

-=0=-0

 

"We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us."

—Jens Orback, Swedish Minister for Democracy,

Metropolitan Affairs, Integration and Gender Equality, 2004

 

=-0=-0

 

Some additional history alluded to in the sci fi novel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg

 

=-0=-0=-0

 

Any realistic assessment of any possible scenario will inevitably conclude that nothing that al Qaeda can do can cause the collapse of America and the capitalist system. The worse eventuality in the long run would be that America would be forced to break its hallowed ideal of universal tolerance, in order to make an exception of those who fit the racial profiling of an al Qaeda terrorist. It is ridiculous to think that if al Qaeda continued to attack us such measures would not be taken. They would be forced upon the government by the people (and anyone who thinks that the supposed cultural hegemony of the left might stop this populist fury is deluded).

—Lee Harris, "The Intellectual Origins of America Bashing"

 

=-0=-0

 

The open society is not threatened, it is in a state of dissolution. The date on which the unconditional surrender was announced can be exactly identified: It was the day that the fatwa was issued against Salman Rushdie and the European institutions and governments did NOT react with an immediate break in ALL ties to the Mullah-Regime. Instead those multi-culturally oriented knowers came out and explained to us why Rushdie would have done better not to provoke the mullahs.

 

Europe—Your Last Name is Appeasement!

—Henryk Broder, Welt am Sonntag, 14 November, 2004

 

=-0=-0

 

The weakness of the Arab nations stems from the fact that they buy weapons instead of choosing to do their own research. If it chose the latter course, an Arab state could pull off two miracles at one stroke: invest in an army of researchers and engineers, thus contributing to full employment, and free itself from military dependence on the West.

—Fatima Mernissi, modern, enlightened, liberal,

Moslem feminist, Islam and Democracy

 

-0=-0=

 

Certain persons have been begging me for the past five years to write about war against the Turks, and encourage our people and stir them up to it, and now that the Turk is actually approaching, my friends are compelling me to do this duty, especially since there are some stupid preachers among us Germans (as I am sorry to hear) who are making the people believe that we ought not and must not fight against the Turks. Some are even so crazy as to say that it is not proper for Christians to bear the temporal sword or to be rulers; also because our German people are such a wild and uncivilized folk that there are some who want the Turk to come and rule.

—Martin Luther, "On War Against the Turks," 1528 AD

 

=-0=-0

[MrNylon]

I said an extra prayer in church this Easter morning for the everyone affected by this cowardly, attack. The world has not been a safe place for some time. God Bless.

[stein]

I said an extra prayer in church this Easter morning for the everyone affected by this cowardly, attack. The world has not been a safe place for some time. God Bless.

Indeed. A worthy prayer.

 

Better pray for a lot more than that, though. As certain things fall apart around us, worth considering the big picture, if and what is God's will, and what is our place in it.

 

The whole thing freaks me out, sometimes to the point of losing hope. But to paraphrase, "Don't worry about it" is kinda what we were told and forewarned about.

[Digger]

I see another one in Pakistan this morning, 65 dead!

[IanHenry]

Awel,

I'm looking forward to visiting your fair country for the first time next month. We are going to Ypres to visit the first world war cemetery there, to the grave of one of my Wife's relatives, Private Peter Hulland who died there on 27th November 1917 aged just 23. In the 99 years since no one has visited Peter's grave which is something that my Wife wants to put right. I'm also going to Bruges which I'm told is particularly beautiful.

 

 

Ian

[Cougar]

"Pessimism as a belief not only becomes a passive set of predictions about the future but also plays a dynamic role in ensuring the deteriorating quality of tomorrow's world." -- H.J. Morowitz

[SteveFord]

My wife commented last night on how odd it was that the attack on the mothers and children in Pakistan this past Easter received such scant attention in the news.

In WWII it was a clear case of good versus evil. I think it's the same deal nowadays.

[jdgm]

...And you may not have heard about the suicide bomb in Iraq on Easter Friday which killed over 30 young Shia Muslims and injured 50-80 more. Horrific.

[SteveFord]

No, that did not make the mainstream news.

A bit about a kidnapped priest actually being crucified on Good Friday was a hot topic for about 5 minutes and then disappeared.

Nobody talks about any of it, it's really strange.

Maybe everyone is just so sick of it and that's why they act like it doesn't exist.

 

 

[milod]

It appears that the crucified priest story is incorrect - at least that's how it's being played:

 

From the Washington Times: Bishop Paul Hinder of Southern Arabia said the cardinal had been misinformed.

 

Bishop Hinder told Catholic News Agency on Monday that he has “strong indications that Fr. Tom is still alive in the hands of the kidnappers.”

 

The bishop also told CNA that Cardinal Schonborn’s statement at the Easter Mass was made in error — hearsay based on rumors from India, the native land of Father Uzhunnalil.

[SteveFord]

That is good to hear.

[milod]

One point made earlier in this thread suggested making European firearms ownership and "carry" rights more like those of the U.S.

 

While I'd not be against that idea, and as a "believer" in firearms rights in the U.S., I think also that they're no "cure" for what ails us in this sort of circumstance.

 

For example, yeah, I think the Paris rock show attack likely could have been less a problem if even a half dozen skilled "personal carry" folks had been there. At least it would have changed the complexion of the entire affair.

 

On the other hand, these folks had, I think, the firearms so they could have moments of feelings of power before the real deal, the explosives.

 

Firearms don't do much to defend against suicide bombers. Then again, neither do most other sorts of "weapons" one might think about.

 

To me the bottom line is first for us to recognize what mentality is involved, from the mild follower of a political philosophy often considered a "religion," and secondly how that political philosophy is being moved into "European" (all of us here) cultures with varying degrees of immediate purpose.

 

Good luck, "world." We'll need it.

 

m

[Digger]

One point made earlier in this thread suggested making European firearms ownership and "carry" rights more like those of the U.S.

 

While I'd not be against that idea, and as a "believer" in firearms rights in the U.S., I think also that they're no "cure" for what ails us in this sort of circumstance.

 

For example, yeah, I think the Paris rock show attack likely could have been less a problem if even a half dozen skilled "personal carry" folks had been there. At least it would have changed the complexion of the entire affair.

 

On the other hand, these folks had, I think, the firearms so they could have moments of feelings of power before the real deal, the explosives.

 

Firearms don't do much to defend against suicide bombers. Then again, neither do most other sorts of "weapons" one might think about.

 

To me the bottom line is first for us to recognize what mentality is involved, from the mild follower of a political philosophy often considered a "religion," and secondly how that political philosophy is being moved into "European" (all of us here) cultures with varying degrees of immediate purpose.

 

Good luck, "world." We'll need it.

 

m

 

 

I see we agree that this is more about power than religion, other than for the foot soldiers or dupes whichever way you care to see it.

[milod]

Well, Arnold J. Toynbee portrayed the Cold War as a religious competition that pitted a Marxist materialist heresy against the West's spiritual Christian heritage—a heritage that had already been foolishly rejected by a secularized West.

 

Note "religious competition."

 

It's kinda what one considers might constitute a "religion." He didn't see that as meaning "theology" as much as the sort of beliefs that command one's cultural ethos in general. I'd suggest Confucianism as something similar but without the "evangelical" sort of drive to it as found in a committed "believing" Marxist.

 

Differences between the "cold war" era and today's difficulty with political Islam is that "we" all thought "we" could have either a more or less standard traditional war, or "we" could have some variant on nuclear annihilation. Political Islam fights differently through immigration and refusal for assimilation far more than with suicide vests that are only a fractional aspect of that culture. They gave up, as a culture, military conquest centuries ago; but it's following up on success of immigration without integration. They haven't, however, forgotten their military history with glory for victories and anger over defeats.

 

So the question really, to me, is whether a culture committed in varying degrees to implacable leveraging toward its supremacy isn't guaranteed to win over a more generalized "laissez-faire" belief that all cultures are fine and let it go wherever it may. We think big arguments are over relatively minor aspects of politics and culture when, they're just little stuff.

 

Seriously, it makes me wonder sometimes whether the world in another 500 years won't be an extended Confucian Chinese culture vs. political Islam everywhere else. Europe? Western Hemisphere and the Antipodes? Anyone care to learn Chinese?

 

m

[Digger]

Well, Arnold J. Toynbee portrayed the Cold War as a religious competition that pitted a Marxist materialist heresy against the West's spiritual Christian heritage—a heritage that had already been foolishly rejected by a secularized West.

 

Note "religious competition."

 

It's kinda what one considers might constitute a "religion." He didn't see that as meaning "theology" as much as the sort of beliefs that command one's cultural ethos in general. I'd suggest Confucianism as something similar but without the "evangelical" sort of drive to it as found in a committed "believing" Marxist.

 

Differences between the "cold war" era and today's difficulty with political Islam is that "we" all thought "we" could have either a more or less standard traditional war, or "we" could have some variant on nuclear annihilation. Political Islam fights differently through immigration and refusal for assimilation far more than with suicide vests that are only a fractional aspect of that culture. They gave up, as a culture, military conquest centuries ago; but it's following up on success of immigration without integration. They haven't, however, forgotten their military history with glory for victories and anger over defeats.

 

So the question really, to me, is whether a culture committed in varying degrees to implacable leveraging toward its supremacy isn't guaranteed to win over a more generalized "laissez-faire" belief that all cultures are fine and let it go wherever it may. We think big arguments are over relatively minor aspects of politics and culture when, they're just little stuff.

 

Seriously, it makes me wonder sometimes whether the world in another 500 years won't be an extended Confucian Chinese culture vs. political Islam everywhere else. Europe? Western Hemisphere and the Antipodes? Anyone care to learn Chinese?

 

 

 

 

Well I'm considering learning Chinese as the "Continental Drift" is taking us closer to China each year! Eventually we will collide with southern China and that's alright as I love Chinese food! Airfares should be cheaper to the States too!

 

I'm not sure about Confucian but I know a lot about Confusion~

[Digger]

Last night our footy team was playing and we recorded it to watch later (we won!!)

 

This morning the headlines are screaming about a banner that said "Go Pies", No More Mosques".

 

OMG you should hear the outcry from the press, esp, the left wing mobs.

 

They will learn one day, perhaps the hard way?

[Retired]

1459441018[/url]' post='1757026']

One point made earlier in this thread suggested making European firearms ownership and "carry" rights more like those of the U.S.

 

While I'd not be against that idea, and as a "believer" in firearms rights in the U.S., I think also that they're no "cure" for what ails us in this sort of circumstance.

 

For example, yeah, I think the Paris rock show attack likely could have been less a problem if even a half dozen skilled "personal carry" folks had been there. At least it would have changed the complexion of the entire affair.

 

On the other hand, these folks had, I think, the firearms so they could have moments of feelings of power before the real deal, the explosives.

 

Firearms don't do much to defend against suicide bombers. Then again, neither do most other sorts of "weapons" one might think about.

 

To me the bottom line is first for us to recognize what mentality is involved, from the mild follower of a political philosophy often considered a "religion," and secondly how that political philosophy is being moved into "European" (all of us here) cultures with varying degrees of immediate purpose.

 

Good luck, "world." We'll need it.

 

m

 

Oh yes. I agree. And the suicide bombers they showed pushing the carts at the airport with suit cases full of explosives on the bottom had a glove on one hand covering the detenator. So how would a untrained conceal carry person really identify that as a threat? A quick push of a button sets it off leaving no time for a untrained person to respond and he or she becomes a victim. We can't go around shooting everyone because they look different. I have no answers. Guess we just hope and pray for the best and take one day at a time. My wife once looked up one of the first maps of Europe in the beginning and it showed all the changes through history of how land marks of countries changed over the centuries in slow motion and showed it to me. Tons of wars and battles have changed countries emensley and it was amazing to watch. Don't know where she found it but it was interesting.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

http://www.youtube.com/Watch?v=uxDyJ_6N-6A

[Digger]

Oh yes. I agree. And the suicide bombers they showed pushing the carts at the airport with suit cases full of explosives on the bottom had a glove on one hand covering the detenator. So how would a untrained conceal carry person really identify that as a threat? A quick push of a button sets it off leaving no time for a untrained person to respond and he or she becomes a victim. We can't go around shooting everyone because they look different. I have no answers. Guess we just hope and pray for the best and take one day at a time. My wife once looked up one of the first maps of Europe in the beginning and it showed all the changes through history of how land marks of countries changed over the centuries in slow motion and showed it to me. Tons of wars and battles have changed countries emensley and it was amazing to watch. Don't know where she found it but it was interesting.

 

 

Those bombers likely had a "dead man's" switch anyway and detonated when the pressure was released, in other words if shot the bomb would detonate anyway!

 

Good presentation there Farnbarns thanks.

 

Interesting to think that for 50,000 of those years Australian aboriginals wandered this empty continent living off the land and mostly in small family groups. (some exceptions of course)

[Retired]

1459629879[/url]' post='1757641']

http://www.youtube.com/Watch?v=uxDyJ_6N-6A

 

Yes, that was basicly what I saw. Thanks!