Modern Gibson Acoustics vs Various Vintage Eras

[babydaddymusic]

Some of you may have seen I started a thread as a Gibson newbie. I am learning so much about Gibson acoustics after owning a 1966 j45 for almost 10 years now. I assumed that newer Gibsons of any time past the 1970,s were lower quality instruments which relied on the past reputation of Gibson. I record singer songwriter stuff of my own and sometimes produce and record others and I had never really loved the J45. I had it almost like a museum piece, I had mostly used my Martin 0000-15M and I have an Art and Lutherie parlor guitar. I’m embarrassed to say that I’ve been playing guitar for decades and understood very little about what makes things sound the way I prefer. Anyway, I had some platonic idea of a perfect acoustic sound which doesn’t exist. I actual fact , anything can serve a song or performance in the right hands. However, I have also come to appreciate having things in my studio that hand you a specific sound. I lean more towards a dead string sound, like Jeff Tweedy of Wilco. One day I found a 2019 L-00 at a local music shop that blew me away. I feel it is a very well made instrument. I bought it and began comparing the three main guitars on recordings. That L-00 with worn strings handed me the Wilco sound. 
I then decided to use Martin Monel strings on my guitars to see how I liked them.
I took the J45 to a guy I trust who said the ADJ bridge was choking the high strings and to give a bone saddle a chance to see if I would like the guitar better.

what I would love to hear from you guys is this.

I’ve come to learn that most in the know about Gibson acoustics say that the real keepers of vintage are 20’s to 1950’s. I can't afford that era and I don’t love the 66 J45 like I should. I feel it’s a piece of history, almost like a museum piece. Now that I have this L-00 I feel I have a versatile guitar that I love to play. I feel almost like the J45 is not what I thought it was, which was some infallible harbinger of vintage woody tone that can’t be gotten by anything newer than 1970. 

It sure seems like both the 66 J45 and the 2019 L-00 are very well made guitars. 
 

I think if I had a 1930’s-50’s I might never sell, but I am thinking I will sell this j45 because it’s not the golden era. It’s in excellent condition. 
it appears that I can get s similar tone with a new J45, and to some extent even with the L-00.

in other words, this j45 is not as I thought in terms of collectibility and so far I don’t love it. Am I going to regret selling it just because it’s old? I think I could get between 3500 and 5k for this one. Whereas I would take a hit if I sold the L-00. Maybe sell the Martin? Haha

how do the veterans on the forum feel about this line of thinking?

Edited December 25, 2022 by babydaddymusic

[Twang Gang]

I am NOT going to weigh in on vintage vs. modern debate.  All I know is if you own a guitar that you don't really like the sound of (especially if you have another that you do really like) then you might as well sell it and get something that is more to your taste.  Your J-45 that you thought was an icon will probably just sit in the corner while you play the other guitars that you prefer.

Just my two cents.

[Sgt. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, Twang Gang said:

I am NOT going to weigh in on vintage vs. modern debate.  All I know is if you own a guitar that you don't really like the sound of (especially if you have another that you do really like) then you might as well sell it and get something that is more to your taste.  Your J-45 that you thought was an icon will probably just sit in the corner while you play the other guitars that you prefer.

Just my two cents.

Ones I don’t play I sell. I’m down to 3. If the 12 string I have wasn’t a gift from my wife, it would be long gone.

[Murph]

Bozeman has been building exceptional guitars for several decades now.

[BluesKing777]

 

Some of the singer songwriter types hanging out here are dribbling at the chance to steal your 1966 Gibson J45.......

Keep it!

It is supposed to be THE classic singer songwriter acoustic, or so we are told here.

It may need a full reno by an experienced Gibson tech.

Are there photos, back and front...etc? Soundclip?

 

BluesKing777.

Edited December 27, 2022 by BluesKing777

[E-minor7]

First - welcome. You have arrived through the right door and your questions/thoughts are welcome too. 

Everything indicates you have a lot of passion and dreams goin'  - that's excellent and the line below is the best driver one can get.  

On 12/25/2022 at 7:28 PM, babydaddymusic said:

 Anyway, I had some platonic idea of a perfect acoustic sound which doesn’t exist.

The quest must continue - he who reaches for the stars might grab a juicy orange. 

But one thing - adjustable bridges/saddles aren't the tone-killer some continue to claim they are. They are just something else - and you know quite a lot Gibsons aren't particularly loud anyway. Have to ask - of which material is the insert made ? Nothing weighty can be said or done before we know. 

Yet something would tell most readers that this 45 just isn't your guitar. You don't wanna play and create dreams on a legend if then legend doesn't vibrate the way it should. So there are 2 paths now :  getting/testing  the right saddle-insert-material or passing the old slope on to get closer to `the vizion´. 

A good idea would be to find tunes with the wanted acoustic sound on the Tube and post them here. Could be test-recording, could be songs from the big juke-box behind us. Do you wanna go Ralph Mctell or James Taylor or mid-60s Donovan, , , , or something 5th. . . 

                                                  Do you at all want another Gibson.

Edited December 27, 2022 by E-minor7

[Sevendaymelee]

Imo, vintage is overblown to the point of lunacy. Do they sound different? Absolutely. Do they sound better? That's subjective. Is it worth the added money? You'll have to decide that for yourself. But I've played fifty-year-old guitars, and I've played brand new guitars, and there's no winner either way. Some new ones blow the older ones away and visa versa. Probably because there's no clear difference. A great guitar sounds great, new and old. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sevendaymelee

[babydaddymusic]

2 hours ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

Some of the singer songwriter types hanging out here are dribbling at the chance to steal your 1966 Gibson J45.......

Keep it!

It is supposed to be THE classic singer songwriter acoustic, or so we are told here.

It may need a full reno by an experienced Gibson tech.

Are there photos, back and front...etc? Soundclip?

 

BluesKing777.

I think I’m going to keep it. I’ll post pictures when I get it back 

[babydaddymusic]

2 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

First - welcome. You have arrived through the right door and your questions/thoughts are welcome too. 

Everything indicates you have a lot of passion and dreams goin'  - that's excellent and the line below is the best driver one can get.  

The quest must continue - he who reaches for the stars might grab a juicy orange. 

But one thing - adjustable bridges/saddles aren't the tone-killer some continue to claim they are. They are just something else - and you know quite a lot Gibsons aren't particularly loud anyway. Have to ask - of which material is the insert made ? Nothing weighty can be said or done before we know. 

Yet something would tell most readers that this 45 just isn't your guitar. You don't wanna play and create dreams on a legend if then legend doesn't vibrate the way it should. So there are 2 paths now :  getting/testing  the right saddle-insert-material or passing the old slope on to get closer to `the vizion´. 

A good idea would be to find tunes with the wanted acoustic sound on the Tube and post them here. Could be test-recording, could be songs from the big juke-box behind us. Do you wanna go Ralph Mctell or James Taylor or mid-60s Donovan, , , , or something 5th. . . 

                                                  Do you at all want another Gibson.

Ebony is the original on the left. 
Remember the Mountain Bed by Wilco is a sound I like. 
A different vibe is Best of my Love by Eagles is a different sound I like

[BluesKing777]

24 minutes ago, babydaddymusic said:

I think I’m going to keep it. I’ll post pictures when I get it back 

Good plan!

The vintage Gibsons are hard come by, you already have it? Maybe try some different types of strings....Elixir PB coated, Martin Retros (monels - often mentioned by people who like woody old tones).., low tension Santa Cruz .......

Yep, that ebony will dull it.

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by BluesKing777

[E-minor7]

3 hours ago, babydaddymusic said:

Ebony is the original on the left. 
Remember the Mountain Bed by Wilco is a sound I like. 
A different vibe is Best of my Love by Eagles is a different sound I like

 

2 tracks with very attractive acoustic voices.

Eagles bein' rather conventional - probably some sort of dread strummed in a relaxed mood.

Wilco bein' the alternative troubadour with old steel and a held back timble that could point toward the ebony insert.

Well, , , a good thing you have and are aware of both. That is step 1 - but I honestly don't really see the 45 do the joooob.  Especially not if the ebony insert missed the target. . 

 

P.S. - Can you explain why the bone replacement should steal tone. If the component has top-contact there's a bit more of everything.                                                                                                                                                 Enjoy your search - and post sounds & pics here as you go.. . 

[kidblast]

since you're asking for opinions..

I don't buy in to the "Vintage"  -  "the only good wood is old wood" thing.    I just don't.  Like Murph said, Bozeman has been putting out some great instruments for a long time now.

My J200 is 6 years old this year.  it's the best acoustic guitar I've ever owned.  

But to each their own,   if you are really itching for a 70-year-old guitar,  then,  hunt one down, and buy it.  It's your money.  IMHO there are too many potential issues that come with such a guitar, and sometimes the expense of making it right, is just a point of diminishing returns.

I'll take my 2016 J200 any day of the week.

 

 

[zombywoof]

I also am not going into the whole "vintage" versus "modern" guitar tone thing.  No money in it.  I guess I am pretty simple and break guitars into three groups - those I really like, those I like, and those I like less.  I am one of those who finds it impossible to actually hate a guitar.   That said, the one thing I can get with older Gibsons that is a whole lot tougher to find with Bozeman-made instruments is a neck and string spacing at the bridge which feels like home.  Bozeman has its own ideas as to what feels best.  We just tend to disagree on the definition of comfy.  

[Sgt. Pepper]

11 hours ago, babydaddymusic said:

 

Wow that is one thick pickguard.

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 hour ago, kidblast said:

since you're asking for opinions..

I don't buy in to the "Vintage"  -  "the only good wood is old wood" thing.    I just don't.  Like Murph said, Bozeman has been putting out some great instruments for a long time now.

My J200 is 6 years old this year.  it's the best acoustic guitar I've ever owned.  

But to each their own,   if you are really itching for a 70-year-old guitar,  then,  hunt one down, and buy it.  It's your money.  IMHO there are too many potential issues that come with such a guitar, and sometimes the expense of making it right, is just a point of diminishing returns.

I'll take my 2016 J200 any day of the week.

 

 

New and newer used guitars cost a fortune, and going back in time to get some vintage mojo, and spending even more is not for me. 

[kidblast]

30 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

New and newer used guitars cost a fortune, and going back in time to get some vintage mojo, and spending even more is not for me. 

I can get the attraction of it all, but I don't find it all that practical.  Neck resets, bridge refits, bracing repairs, cracks, et all are all part of what goes into to this kind of purchase.   I have a 1978 Alvarez Yari, that I've had for years now.  It's a  fine guitar (D28 style dreadnaught)  It is holding up well.  But I know it probably needs a bridge reset in the near future which isn't really too bad, but perhaps a neck reset too.   Neither of which at the moment I am planning to do.     It's 100% playable tho, and it sounds really good

[Dave F]

It took a while for me to learn but either you like the guitar or you don’t. Doesn’t matter what year it was made or what the name on the headstock is. A couple personal examples. I had a vintage 1942 J45. Decided I liked my 2010 Legend J45 more so the vintage left. I got one of the newer aged top SJ. Liked it better. The Legend left. I had an older Martin Custom Shop HD28 Brazilian rosewood built to pre war specs. Liked my newer D41 Special better. HD left. I’ve been getting better on deciding what I like and don’t like and to quit holding on to guitars because they’re supposed to be special. If I were a collector investing in guitars it would be a different story but I am not a collector. 

[babydaddymusic]

1 hour ago, kidblast said:

I can get the attraction of it all, but I don't find it all that practical.  Neck resets, bridge refits, bracing repairs, cracks, et all are all part of what goes into to this kind of purchase.   I have a 1978 Alvarez Yari, that I've had for years now.  It's a  fine guitar (D28 style dreadnaught)  It is holding up well.  But I know it probably needs a bridge reset in the near future which isn't really too bad, but perhaps a neck reset too.   Neither of which at the moment I am planning to do.     It's 100% playable tho, and it sounds really good

Yes, I think it’s guitar dependent

[babydaddymusic]

9 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

2 tracks with very attractive acoustic voices.

Eagles bein' rather conventional - probably some sort of dread strummed in a relaxed mood.

Wilco bein' the alternative troubadour with old steel and a held back timble that could point toward the ebony insert.

Well, , , a good thing you have and are aware of both. That is step 1 - but I honestly don't really see the 45 do the joooob.  Especially not if the ebony insert missed the target. . 

 

P.S. - Can you explain why the bone replacement should steal tone. If the component has top-contact there's a bit more of everything.                                                                                                                                                 Enjoy your search - and post sounds & pics here as you go.. . 

There is a plan in place

the J45 can be the workhorse strummer and the L-00 can be the specialty mountain bed guitar.

It wasn’t just the sound of the ebony saddle, it had grooves worn on the high strings where they were literally plinking when open. It needed to be replaced regardless. When I explained what purpose I wanted from the guitar the luthier said I should try a bone saddle. 
 

I use Martin Monel retro strings and I’m not afraid to let strings go dead. 
 

Mountain Bed is the small dead string guitar ideal for me

[jvi]

I think the old wood was  best and chosen well, now its gone and we want to say it dosnt matter, but the old wood was better in my opinion...

[kidblast]

31 minutes ago, babydaddymusic said:

Yes, I think it’s guitar dependent

yea  100%   if you able to find a restoration that's ready to go for a price you're comfortable with,  that would be one to consider.

They're out there, the hunt is half the fun.  (or so I hear! 👍)

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

14 minutes ago, jvi said:

 in my opinion...

Those words ring true for all of us, and that goes for everything we like  and dislike. You got your and I certainly got mine. No guitar you have or I have is better that the others. Its only better for you.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[kidblast]

13 minutes ago, jvi said:

I think the old wood was  best and chosen well, now its gone and we want to say it dosnt matter, but the old wood was better in my opinion...

there is something to that Jim.  we can't dispute that.

[Sevendaymelee]

2 hours ago, jvi said:

I think the old wood was  best and chosen well, now its gone and we want to say it dosnt matter, but the old wood was better in my opinion...

Yes, old wood. I hear that a lot. But you know what you never hear? People saying 70's Martins are superior because they were using old-growth Indian rosewood. Now why do you think that is? Seems to me, if "old growth" was the holy grail, than those guitars would be coveted, since they were using first generation, old-growth rosewood. But they're not. As a matter of fact, if the internet is to be believed, 70's Martins are the worst sounding guitars in the history of solid wood guitars. 

The vast majority of what we all think is fact is actually myth. Double blind studies have proven it. Of course, we snicker at these studies, because we want to continue to believe what our less-than-informed parents and grandparents told us... but that doesn't make it any less true.

There are bad guitars, good guitars and great guitars. The age of the wood doesn't elevate these things. It may change them, but it doesn't elevate them. You can find a dud from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's just like you can find a dud from the guitars built today.

The only difference?

Modern guitars will (mostly) be flawless, carry a warranty, and won't set you back the cost of a kidney to obtain. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Sevendaymelee

[zombywoof]

3 hours ago, kidblast said:

I can get the attraction of it all, but I don't find it all that practical.  Neck resets, bridge refits, bracing repairs, cracks, et all are all part of what goes into to this kind of purchase.   I have a 1978 Alvarez Yari, that I've had for years now.  It's a  fine guitar (D28 style dreadnaught)  It is holding up well.  But I know it probably needs a bridge reset in the near future which isn't really too bad, but perhaps a neck reset too.   Neither of which at the moment I am planning to do.     It's 100% playable tho, and it sounds really good

Sounds like a bit of a rationalization.  And it might be a pretty good one.  Speaking from personal experience though once you get any initial issues taken care of these old Gibsons will be as trouble free as a new one.  And any existing and potential issues simply become part of the haggling process.