Is COA important to you?

[Olive]

Hello

In my second topic on the forum, i was asking for help as I'm was (still?) looking for the COA for my Memphis ES-335. I was suprise by some answers because I was thinking it would be important for everybody but it's not the case ... 

• First school of thought is : Yes it is very important as it assured you that your guitar is not a fake. It can be very important for the verification of a model. Gibson dont give them for anything.
• Second School of thought : No it is only a case candy and you dont need it for anything. It's not a legal document.  It doesn't certify anything meaningful.  It's not a certificate of title.

I asked the question to Charlie Gelber of OKGuitars.com and here is his answer : «If a buyer can’t tell an original Gibson from a fake, he shouldn’t be buying a guitar from anyone other than a reputable dealer. There are no COAs for vintage guitars and yet we all seem to be OK with that. The value is in the guitar, not the paperwork.»

I also found that you can buy some blank certificat on the net and fill it yourself and this is very bad for the yes answer 🤔

So here is my question : Is COA important to you? and why?

Olive

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 hour ago, Olive said:

Hello

In my second topic on the forum, i was asking for help as I'm was (still?) looking for the COA for my Memphis ES-335. I was suprise by some answers because I was thinking it would be important for everybody but it's not the case ... 

• First school of thought is : Yes it is very important as it assured you that your guitar is not a fake. It can be very important for the verification of a model. Gibson dont give them for anything.
• Second School of thought : No it is only a case candy and you dont need it for anything. It's not a legal document.  It doesn't certify anything meaningful.  It's not a certificate of title.

I asked the question to Charlie Gelber of OKGuitars.com and here is his answer : «If a buyer can’t tell an original Gibson from a fake, he shouldn’t be buying a guitar from anyone other than a reputable dealer. There are no COAs for vintage guitars and yet we all seem to be OK with that. The value is in the guitar, not the paperwork.»

I also found that you can buy some blank certificat on the net and fill it yourself and this is very bad for the yes answer 🤔

So here is my question : Is COA important to you? and why?

Olive

 

If guitars can be faked, can a COA? I think it can. Some want and care about it, but remember all Gibsons don’t come with them so are those guitars not worthy or fake?

[marco mancini]

2 hours ago, Olive said:

Hello

In my second topic on the forum, i was asking for help as I'm was (still?) looking for the COA for my Memphis ES-335. I was suprise by some answers because I was thinking it would be important for everybody but it's not the case ... 

• First school of thought is : Yes it is very important as it assured you that your guitar is not a fake. It can be very important for the verification of a model. Gibson dont give them for anything.
• Second School of thought : No it is only a case candy and you dont need it for anything. It's not a legal document.  It doesn't certify anything meaningful.  It's not a certificate of title.

I asked the question to Charlie Gelber of OKGuitars.com and here is his answer : «If a buyer can’t tell an original Gibson from a fake, he shouldn’t be buying a guitar from anyone other than a reputable dealer. There are no COAs for vintage guitars and yet we all seem to be OK with that. The value is in the guitar, not the paperwork.»

I also found that you can buy some blank certificat on the net and fill it yourself and this is very bad for the yes answer 🤔

So here is my question : Is COA important to you? and why?

Olive

 

Of course it is important  but the most important thing is  get in touch with Gibson call center  give them the  pics  of the guitar  and they will tell you if that it  is a real or fake  one .

[merciful-evans]

1 hour ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

If guitars can be faked, can a COA? I think it can. Some want and care about it, but remember all Gibsons don’t come with them so are those guitars not worthy or fake?

That's it in a nutshell.

I got a COA with my ES-339 Studio. I didn't expect it. This is the cheapest version of the model. But in 2015 they were made in Memphis and I supposed it was a 'Memphis thing'. 

I don't think the LP I got (Nashville) had one. 

I don't consider a COA an important thing to have, but it is a nice thing to have. 

I think its extremely rare to be unsure whether a Gibson instrument is genuine or not. Maybe some half rebuilt1930 model with no sticker might be tough. Any regular model can be authenticated by many posters on here, and Gibson can almost certainly do it. 

 

[Eracer_Team]

as stated.. old 'historic' guitars never came with one.. many people loose them anyways.. and as stated.. yes anyone with a printer can make one.. 

not important as a non-fake guitar is.

[CROWB8]

Doesnt it also have to do with customs while traveling as well? Seem to recall reading bout certain woods on guits being barred from importation to a given country. Be it private party or corp. Unless accompanied by manufacture cert. Met by Gibson COA cert. Ebony comes to mind. Proof wood was not harvested from protected areas.

Got a coa w my '21 LPCBB 70TH.

Edited January 2, 2023 by CROWB8

[Eracer_Team]

COA doesn’t state wood, 

customs knows that instruments are more than just personal objects like a Bic pen,

you’re transporting a finished product not individual wood species 

COA is not important to customs

[SteveFord]

I only have received one COA over the years.

I don't know what the criteria is for them issuing one with the guitar.  Dollar amount?

[CROWB8]

46 minutes ago, Eracer_Team said:

COA doesn’t state wood, 

customs knows that instruments are more than just personal objects like a Bic pen,

you’re transporting a finished product not individual wood species 

COA is not important to customs

Gonna search for what I read. Arg. But doesnt need to state wood. Just like UL certs dont list specifics on electronic components. Not trying to be argumentitive. Respect. And one is transporting individual wood species. Just w/in a product. Your point, "finished product". Epis come with CE sticker which is an out of country (US) equivalent to our UL. And in the same respect you mentioned, your not importing electronics. Just a guit. See how that might be relative? 

 

So far I found the issue gibson had w ebony. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/gibson-guitar-corp-agrees-resolve-investigation-lacey-act-violations

2009 was when they imported the ebony in Q. Settlement/resolution ofnthe issue was in '12. But I remeber reading bout a bandnthat had a guit with held at customs due to wood legal issues. I'll try to find that again.

I can find, from LP boards that COAs, as we know them today , came around '03. What I cant find, at the moment, is why they appeared. Cant find, at present, any official info from Gibson itself. Richlite has a role in this Q also.

"I'll be back" 

Really interested on this topic. Respectfully, not trying to be an *ss.

Edited January 2, 2023 by CROWB8

[Eracer_Team]

Gibson imported wood to finish a guitar 

you’re carrying a finished guitar to play

only thing customs is looking at at that time is , 

a) who are you playing for

b) are you getting payment  (ie money, or hotel, etc)

c) are you authorized to work in said country 

[merciful-evans]

16 hours ago, SteveFord said:

I don't know what the criteria is for them issuing one with the guitar.  Dollar amount?

I don't know either but is certainly not cost. There is no easily recognisable criteria and I suspect there isn't one.

[CROWB8]

Yea. You're right sir. Did a lot of looking. Leaned a lot about the wood issues and Gibson. I found nothing connecting COAs to wood. All about authenticity and possible devaluation for lack of. Tnx for puttin up w me.

There was an incident of a guit being stuck briefly in customs for wood. But COA had no play in the incident.

[Olive]

Thank you for having reviewed all the information related to wood species and for confirming that there is no link between the COA and the exploitation of endangered wood species. It was very interesting to read those post.

So it seem then the COA appeared in 2003 from my understanding and it doesn't seem to be rigorously issues with every new Gibson guitar. Does anyone know the reasons behind Gibson's decision to issue these certificates in 2003?

Until now, here is the score on the question : Is the COA important?

Yes : 2

No : 1

Nice to have : 1

Dont know : 3

[badbluesplayer]

On 1/2/2023 at 4:51 PM, CROWB8 said:

Doesnt it also have to do with customs while traveling as well? Seem to recall reading bout certain woods on guits being barred from importation to a given country. Be it private party or corp. Unless accompanied by manufacture cert. Met by Gibson COA cert. Ebony comes to mind. Proof wood was not harvested from protected areas.

Got a coa w my '21 LPCBB 70TH.

Yeah - The COA is not the same as the import paperwork for the laney act stuff.  It has nothing to do with that.

The COA is not proof of ownership or proof of anything.  The sixteen year old kid who bought a Les Paul from me - he asked for the original receipt - there's a kid who's got some smarts.

If I stole a Gibson, I'd steal the COA too, if it was in the case, right?  And my father told me I wasn't smart enough to be a crook!  Maybe I'll go steal something just to show him he's wrong.

BTW, you're on the right track reading that release from the feds about ebony.  I always felt that it was likely that Gibson signed a consent agreement with the Feds, something you'll never hear about publicly, that required them to stop using ebony for some period of time ( I guessed 5 years at the time,) or while Henry was the owner, lol.  Who knows.  I did engineering work for clients who were under consent orders for environmental violations, and they tended to act exactly like Gibson did at the time.  So who knows?

[CROWB8]

1 hour ago, badbluesplayer said:

....I always felt that it was likely that Gibson signed a consent agreement with the Feds, something you'll never hear about publicly, that required them to stop using ebony for some period of time ( I guessed 5 years at the time,) or while Henry was the owner, lol.  Who knows.  I did engineering work for clients who were under consent orders for environmental violations, and they tended to act exactly like Gibson did at the time.  So who knows?

Yup!

Dont wanna dive back into it. But richlight was used as a sub. Roughly from '03-'12. May have also been on guits outside those years. But the purpose was originally used as a sub.

The back story on ebony was that they (Gibson) were fraudulently accused of *knowingly* importing the endangered spicies of ebony from Madagascar. It was prooven not the case. The agent who testified, on paper, lied. But Gibson settled due to the cost of defending the suit.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/markets/gibson-guitar-hit-penalty-importing-rare-woods-flna927206

And some rosewood spicies were also in Q. Indian laurel for one. Different incident.

Edited January 4, 2023 by CROWB8

[badbluesplayer]

1 hour ago, CROWB8 said:

Yup!

Dont wanna dive back into it. But richlight was used as a sub. Roughly from '03-'12. May have also been on guits outside those years. But the purpose was originally used as a sub.

The back story on ebony was that they (Gibson) were fraudulently accused of *knowingly* importing the endangered spicies of ebony from Madagascar. It was prooven not the case. The agent who testified, on paper, lied. But Gibson settled due to the cost of defending the suit.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/markets/gibson-guitar-hit-penalty-importing-rare-woods-flna927206

And some rosewood spicies were also in Q. Indian laurel for one. Different incident.

Whoa down there!  Fradulently schmadulently.  Your backstory is not, what we say in the baloney business,  correctomundo.  Agent was not shown to have lied.  Check it again.

Pro tip - liars argue the facts.

You're saying what Gibson said right BEFORE they got thrown in the corporate slammer.  That's what they said 30 minutes after they got raided, out in their parking lot, just like a typical environmental scofflaw does, running out into the parking lot and saying "No.....................!"

 

[CROWB8]

1 hour ago, badbluesplayer said:

Whoa down there!  Fradulently schmadulently.  Your backstory is not, what we say in the baloney business,  correctomundo.  Agent was not shown to have lied.  Check it again.

Pro tip - liars argue the facts.

You're saying what Gibson said right BEFORE they got thrown in the corporate slammer.  That's what they said 30 minutes after they got raided, out in their parking lot, just like a typical environmental scofflaw does, running out into the parking lot and saying "No.....................!"

 

Yeppers.

Appearently an argument prooved wrong. The Gibson purchasing agent (Gibson employee) advise Gibson management of the ban, and they failed to act on it. Geeze. They tried to weasel out of it.

Charges and settlement  w/o arguments.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/gibson-guitar-corp-agrees-resolve-investigation-lacey-act-violations

Bottom line. Nothing to do w COA.

Learn a lot here tnx @badbluesplayer

Edited January 4, 2023 by CROWB8

[SteveFord]

Here's a thread detour:

I have a lot of knives and recently purchased some switchblades (don't tell Mom).  

https://www.buckknives.com/product/110-auto-knife/0110BRSA-B/

I was surprised to see them mention sourcing the ebony from Taylor Guitars.  Why they call if Crelicam (trade mark) Genuine Ebony is  probably like calling balsa wood Chromite.

[Wmachine]

On 1/2/2023 at 5:49 PM, SteveFord said:

I only have received one COA over the years.

I don't know what the criteria is for them issuing one with the guitar.  Dollar amount?

 

On 1/3/2023 at 10:36 AM, merciful-evans said:

I don't know either but is certainly not cost. There is no easily recognisable criteria and I suspect there isn't one.

Sure there is a criteria.   All (Nashville) Custom Shop get COAs.  All Memphis after a certain date got COAs.  Don't recall when that was, maybe 2009?

Edited January 5, 2023 by Wmachine

[Larsongs]

It seems things like that & Specs are of “0” importance to at least half the Members here..  There are existing Threads here already if you’re interested? But, I think my first sentence covers all 50 pages +/-……. LOL!

That said, questions like yours & 1000 other questions about Guitars people buy or are thinking of Buying take up a huge portion of the Website!!!! Some of the answers are great & some are outright hilarious..

I’m an Outlier here as I think everything from Quality Control, Materials, Build techniques, looks, playability, sound, features, a hard Case, all the case Candy, COA, original Receipt, Warranty, all available Specs etc.. are important… Right down to the type of glue that was used..  But, I’m one very few..

Good luck to you….. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If COA's were so important Gibson would include one with every guitar they make, from the least to most expensive, but they don't. 

If the purchase of a real Gibson hinges on having, or not having the COA, well then I guess it may or may not be the guitar for you.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[Olive]

Update score after 10 differents users reply

Is the COA important?

Yes : 4

No : 1

Nice to have : 1

Dont know or not clear answer: 4

Edited January 19, 2023 by Olive

[Sgt. Pepper]

12 hours ago, Olive said:

Update score after 10 differents users reply

Is the COA important?

Yes : 4

No : 1

Nice to have : 1

Dont know or not clear answer: 4

I wasn't aware someone was tracking this. Are you going to wait till all the votes are in to make some sort of decision on buying?

[Eracer_Team]

@Olive guess my post above doesn’t exactly say no not important but it certainly is implied 

COA really doesn’t provide “providence “ for guitar authenticity 

to a collector like Bonamassa or Segal “ case candy” adds value to historic guitars  but not a deal stopper for them as long as one of the nearly “4,000” 1959 Les Paul sunburst they’re buying is real ( that’s a joke as there are less than 1800 LPs made from 57 to 61)

i don’t think anyone on this forum (or any others) will pay more for a guitar cause it has the guitar center price hang tag and a few sticky labels and a QA check sheet 

but for the ‘modern day ‘ guitar now the  quantity built daily will add little value in something like 30yrs

Edited January 19, 2023 by Eracer_Team

[Olive]

8 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I wasn't aware someone was tracking this. Are you going to wait till all the votes are in to make some sort of decision on buying?

no sorry. my mistake. I clicked on tracking and I was unable to go back. I'm not too good with computers.