fujifan Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Below is the neck of a 1952 les paul and next to it is a modern Gibson long tenon neck. In the 1952 neck, the neck heel is flush with the bottom of the tenon. The neck comes straight out of the guitar and nothing hides the joint between the back of the neck and the body. In the modern design, they added a step down so the neck heel covers the joint. Adding that step down at the neck heel lowered the quality of Gibson guitars more than anything else they've ever done. Before they hid that neck joint, the tenon had to have full contact with the body. Now that the joint is hidden, they routinely leave a gap between the neck and the body and it ruins the tone and sustain of the guitar. If the tenon and body don't have full contact, then it makes no difference if you've got a long or short tenon. It's not the length of the tenon that matters, it's the contact between the tenon and body that matters. Now on the rare occasion that the tenon is properly seated to the body, people think the guitar is magic, but they should all sound like that. For Gibson to start producing quality guitars they have to make one simple change, get rid of the neck heel that hides the joint between the tenon and the body. If they do that then they can make modern gibsons sound like vintage gibsons and they can have better results from a short tenon than they now have with a long tenon. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) No wonder all those 'modern' Les Pauls sound so crap then. From what year is 'modern'? "- they routinely leave a gap between the neck and the body and it ruins the tone and sustain of the guitar." Where is this gap? I agree there can be a gap at the end of the tenon but that does not mean it is 'not properly seated' or has not been firmly glued into its channel. If the tenon is 'not properly seated to the body' the neck would wobble or loosen and the guitar would never even reach the end of the production line. I notice in the 2nd pic that the neck appears to have a headstock repair. I do not agree at all with your basic premise which leads to your very generalised conclusion. It seems to imply that all guitars with bolt-on neck construction are flawed. May I also suggest you closely examine classical and acoustic guitar neck-to-body construction and attachment? Presumably you are a very skilled guitar builder/luthier/repairman with extensive experience? If so I suggest you change the title of your thread as you should know better than to troll like that. Edited February 10 by jdgm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 9 hours ago, fujifan said: For Gibson to start producing quality guitars they have to.......... Man, if I had a dollar.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Murph said: Man, if I had a dollar.... I'd dollar in the morning.... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 11 hours ago, fujifan said: For Gibson to start producing quality guitars they have to make one simple change, get rid of the neck heel that hides the joint between the tenon and the body. If they do that then they can make modern gibsons sound like vintage gibsons and they can have better results from a short tenon than they now have with a long tenon. Ok, but if they did that how on Earth are they going to sell increasingly accurate reissues? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 minutes ago, IanHenry said: Ok, but if they did that how on Earth are they going to sell increasingly accurate reissues? Then I guess they'll suck too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparquelito Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 True story. A few seasons ago, I was playing a gig with my band, and I was playing my Gibson Les Paul Studio Copper-Top, a 2001 model. Weeks of band practice had led to some really tight sets, and the wedding party we were playing was rocking with a high degree of fun energy. Wedding attendees and the bride and groom were on the dance floor, and we had a ball delivering them great dance tunes and even a few requests. Set after set, great music, short breaks, lots of dancing, and everyone was having a fabulous time! At one point late in the event though, the father of the bride started pointing at me and shouting, "Stop, stop, STOP THE MUSIC!!" We lumbered to a halt, and Bob the drummer just looked at me and shrugged. What could be the matter? The raucous crowd went silent. I spoke into my mic. "What's the matter, sir?" He pointed a trembling finger toward my guitar and sneered, "Your Les Paul has a long tenon neck. It has a step down and the neck heel covers the joint. No wonder your tone sounds like crap!!" The groom exclaimed, "What the hell? You aren't playing a 1952 Gibson? I thought there was something off about your tone!" The bride burst into tears. "Whaaaaaa! His guitar isn't vintage, and now my wedding is ruined! Whaaaaaah!!" She turned and sobbed into her mothers' comforting arms. The mom glared at me angrily. The pastor stepped forward and whispered softly, "It might be best if you all just packed up and left out of here. I'll make sure you get paid, but don't expect anything more than half wages." I nodded glumly, and my band-mates and I sadly began to quietly pack up and load out. The crowd dispersed, and the jukebox began playing softly. Theme From Peyton Place was the song. My girl singer hissed at me, "Great job, John. You and your crap Les Paul ruined everything!" She turned and marched away with her Shure microphone and her flavored rum drink, headed for the parking lot. The rest of us loaded into the van and cars, and Bob the drummer and I drove away in silence. We made no conversation for quite a while. Finally a few miles up the road he said, "We gotta get you a proper early 1950's Gibson, or we will never get any jobs around this town." I sank into my seat belt shoulder harness a bit, and just nodded morosely. We drove on into the night. 😔 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Well played... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 So if we gotta play '52s, we need to get used to underset necks and the accompanying high action, the trapeze bridge/tp combo that refuses to keep the strings in tune, and the underslung strings so we can't palm mute. Good times! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 ^^ yeah buddy. Nobody wants those humbucker things either. Make Gibson great again 🇺🇸 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Well. We do know these Newer Gibson will never be like the old Gibsons from the 50s , if they were. We would all be complaining about how much they’re selling for. Which would be the accurate vintage prices . So for these days. clones of Originals will do I guess. I think the only thing Gibson did close to original specs was the headstock break section 😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Yeah its these sort of myths that have circled the internet for years and years and cannot be proved in any way what so ever. Like when people would say that any weight relief ruined the tone and sustain not knowing about the holes drilled in to each guitar body since the mid 80s until someone xrayed their guitar thinking it was a totally solid body. So does that mean that any guitar that isnt solid or have a set neck as described in the OP has no tone or sustain.. What a load of nonsense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) Sparky's right as I too have been shamed on stage for playing Les Pauls with no long neck tenon, And years of counseling, and I've still not gotten over it... Edited February 11 by kidblast 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujifan Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 6 hours ago, jdgm said: The neck wouldn't wobble. The neck is glued to the fretboard and the fretboard is glued to the body. that alone will stop the neck from wobbling. if the neck pocket is loose on the sides then then put a shim on one side to hold it in place and then use spray foam to fill the gap on the other side.\ "Where is this gap?" If you couldn't even figure that out, you have no business even commenting in this thread. Go away troll, we're having a serious conversation here about how to improve gibson guitars. if you just want to simp for gibson then go find another thread to do that in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujifan Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 2 hours ago, IanHenry said: Ok, but if they did that how on Earth are they going to sell increasingly accurate reissues? The original 50's versions don't have that neck heel. using the neck heel to hide a gap was created by norlin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujifan Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 2 hours ago, sparquelito said: True story. A few seasons ago, I was playing a gig with my band, and I was playing my Gibson Les Paul Studio Copper-Top, a 2001 model. Weeks of band practice had led to some really tight sets, and the wedding party we were playing was rocking with a high degree of fun energy. Wedding attendees and the bride and groom were on the dance floor, and we had a ball delivering them great dance tunes and even a few requests. Set after set, great music, short breaks, lots of dancing, and everyone was having a fabulous time! At one point late in the event though, the father of the bride started pointing at me and shouting, "Stop, stop, STOP THE MUSIC!!" We lumbered to a halt, and Bob the drummer just looked at me and shrugged. What could be the matter? The raucous crowd went silent. I spoke into my mic. "What's the matter, sir?" He pointed a trembling finger toward my guitar and sneered, "Your Les Paul has a long tenon neck. It has a step down and the neck heel covers the joint. No wonder your tone sounds like crap!!" The groom exclaimed, "What the hell? You aren't playing a 1952 Gibson? I thought there was something off about your tone!" The bride burst into tears. "Whaaaaaa! His guitar isn't vintage, and now my wedding is ruined! Whaaaaaah!!" She turned and sobbed into her mothers' comforting arms. The mom glared at me angrily. The pastor stepped forward and whispered softly, "It might be best if you all just packed up and left out of here. I'll make sure you get paid, but don't expect anything more than half wages." I nodded glumly, and my band-mates and I sadly began to quietly pack up and load out. The crowd dispersed, and the jukebox began playing softly. Theme From Peyton Place was the song. My girl singer hissed at me, "Great job, John. You and your crap Les Paul ruined everything!" She turned and marched away with her Shure microphone and her flavored rum drink, headed for the parking lot. The rest of us loaded into the van and cars, and Bob the drummer and I drove away in silence. We made no conversation for quite a while. Finally a few miles up the road he said, "We gotta get you a proper early 1950's Gibson, or we will never get any jobs around this town." I sank into my seat belt shoulder harness a bit, and just nodded morosely. We drove on into the night. 😔 I would have believed you if the father of the bride had handed you a greco and told you to continue. "Here you go lad, a proper les paul so that you can both rock and/or roll, depending upon your sensibilities." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujifan Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, ksdaddy said: So if we gotta play '52s, we need to get used to underset necks and the accompanying high action, the trapeze bridge/tp combo that refuses to keep the strings in tune, and the underslung strings so we can't palm mute. Good times! no, but you have to play gibsons from the 50's, early 60's before norlin changed the neck joint. The neck joint is the reason why every company in the world that makes a les paul makes a superior les paul than gibson. guitar players still playing gibsons are like elderly people that still have a TV antenna on their house. Get with the times bro, gibson has been third rate since the 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/r7-cut-in-half.148671/ here’s an R7 cut in half with no gap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujifan Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, slimt said: Well. We do know these Newer Gibson will never be like the old Gibsons from the 50s , if they were. We would all be complaining about how much they’re selling for. Which would be the accurate vintage prices . 😁 Hilarious! Instead you're buying pure crap and complaining how much they are selling for. You people are the people that would pay 124 bucks for gibsons "historic spec" capacitors and then get pissed at the guy who cut it open and showed you it was just a 50 cent chinese cap inside. Gibsons doesn't sells guitars to musicians,they sells wall hangers to boomers in a midlife crisis who can't afford a corvette. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujifan Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 4 minutes ago, Dub-T-123 said: https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/r7-cut-in-half.148671/ here’s an R7 cut in half with no gap. Now that's a beautiful neck joint. too bad only a small minority are like that. Here's are a couple more les pauls cut in half with bad neck joints and below is a historic gibson sent in for a makeover with an 1.8th inch gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 2 minutes ago, fujifan said: Hilarious! Instead you're buying pure crap and complaining how much they are selling for. You people are the people that would pay 124 bucks for gibsons "historic spec" capacitors and then get pissed at the guy who cut it open and showed you it was just a 50 cent chinese cap inside. Gibsons doesn't sells guitars to musicians,they sells wall hangers to boomers in a midlife crisis who can't afford a corvette. And you sound like someone who would love a Gibson but cant afford it so you get upset and make up crap like this to make yourself feel better that all LPs built after the 50s are rubbish.. TROLL!!!! Where is your proof that it makes any difference to tone or sustain? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Also by this so called logic.. Does that mean that a neck through has the best tone? No neck joint, full contact... If so why arent all guitars neck throughs? Even if what the OP said was true (which it isnt), The whole point of electric guitars is that they are amplified. So if you want more sustain and tone, thats what your amp settings and pedals are for... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 This guy will apparently believe anything that implies Greco > Gibson. Thats ok. I’ll stick with my Les Paul and I don’t feel like I need to cut it in half to see if there’s a gap. If there’s a gap then it’s a tone enhancing acoustic chamber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparquelito Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Steady lads. We are all friends here. If I had a nickle for every time there was an internet disagreement over some nebulous theory about the origins of tone, I would be retired to Bali right now. With two bare-breasted servant girls bringing me martinis. 😜 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 8 minutes ago, fujifan said: Hilarious! Instead you're buying pure crap and complaining how much they are selling for. You people are the people that would pay 124 bucks for gibsons "historic spec" capacitors and then get pissed at the guy who cut it open and showed you it was just a 50 cent chinese cap inside. Gibsons doesn't sells guitars to musicians,they sells wall hangers to boomers in a midlife crisis who can't afford a corvette. Nope, I would find a original item to replace a original item. Gibson can make and sell what they wish. Its there business and folks buy it. my first two years of buying new Gibsons was in the very early days of Bozeman I fully supported there endeavour to craft fine Gibsons . I spent well in excess of 6 figures and got well crafted guitars but to be honest they will never be like the originals from the original era . In some cases these guitars are suppose to be better. Nowadays its all in there marketing and tweeks that make these sell. Im just a consumer that has collected for 50 plus years . And tried to support all makes and brands of quality US made Guitars at the end of the day , your not buying a vintage piece. Your buying a new piece its your choice to pick and choose and to buy or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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