J45 for finger picking?

[ThomasF.]

I recently purchased a J45 custom. Plays well for bluegrass and country, however it doesn't seem to lend it self well to finger picking. I don't know if it's because of the shorter scale than my other guitars or if it's the set-up/strings. 

[dhanners623]

J-45s always seemed ok for fingerpicking for me. I will say, though, that I find my J-35 is better at it than the two J-45s I used to own. To me, the J-35 is more versatile than the J-45, but that’s just me….

[ThomasF.]

Is there a difference in the scale between the J35 an the J45?

 

[Murph]

Mine works just fine.

[zombywoof]

I fingerpick a J50 because that is the only way I know to approach a guitar.  That said, I do not find them the best choice.  It has nothing to do with sound and everything to do with a scary skimpy string spacing at the bridge.  I get along better with my 1932 L1 and 2013 Fairbanks Roy Smeck both of which have a far more generous spacing.

Edited March 6 by zombywoof

[BluesKing777]

Gibson J45/J50 is designed for strumming with a pick.

Of course, anything can be fingerpicked if it has six strings.....but things go better with 1 3/4" nut at least and 2 3/8" bridge space at least.

Or better still, a vintage classical guitar...cannot imagine anyone not fingerpicking one of those! 

 

BluesKing777.

 

Edited March 6 by BluesKing777

[tpbiii]

The J-45 has never been used much in bluegrass and other strong string band music.  It has had more of an impact in the milder "country" genres.  The introduction of the J-45 c 1942 represented a clear reduction of power compared to the Jumbo, AJ, J-35, and even the J-55 of the 1930s. 

I have several (3) J-45s from 1943-1953, as well as three SJs from the same period.  Except for a RW SJ I have, the SJs are basically decorated J-45s until the late 50s -- the 60s and later marked a drop off in power across the entire Gibson acoustic line.

The guitars I use for bluegrass as mostly Martin D-18s, D-21s, and D-18s.  The Gibson I use are (rare) (36) AJ, 35 RSRG, 43 SJ RW, and (40) (super rare) J-55 RW.  So what do I use the J-45s for.  Mostly traditional ragtime and gospel and flat picked traditional rhythm styles.   IMHO, for that they rock.  If I take a J-45 on stage in a bluegrass set, I mostly pick lead directly into the mic with finger picks.

 

 

[dhanners623]

The J-45’s relative scarcity in bluegrass has more to do with the didactic herd mentality of bluegrass musicians than with actual sound. Charlie Monroe was perfectly content to play Gibson slopes, and since he was present at the creation of bluegrass (accompanying brother Bill Monroe) then his choice of instruments can’t be discounted. Even Cleo Davis, who succeeded Charlie on guitar, played Gibson slopes. By the time Lester Flatt joined the band in ‘46, Martins were in vogue. If Lester had played a J-45, people today would consider a D-18 or D-28 too boomy for bluegrass.

There’s no reason a J-45 can’t be fingerpicked, and fingerpicked well. Are there “better” guitars for fingerpicking? Maybe. But you play what you got….

[cayine]

On 3/6/2024 at 6:08 AM, tpbiii said:

The J-45 has never been used much in bluegrass and other strong string band music.  It has had more of an impact in the milder "country" genres.  The introduction of the J-45 c 1942 represented a clear reduction of power compared to the Jumbo, AJ, J-35, and even the J-55 of the 1930s. 

I have several (3) J-45s from 1943-1953, as well as three SJs from the same period.  Except for a RW SJ I have, the SJs are basically decorated J-45s until the late 50s -- the 60s and later marked a drop off in power across the entire Gibson acoustic line.

The guitars I use for bluegrass as mostly Martin D-18s, D-21s, and D-18s.  The Gibson I use are (rare) (36) AJ, 35 RSRG, 43 SJ RW, and (40) (super rare) J-55 RW.  So what do I use the J-45s for.  Mostly traditional ragtime and gospel and flat picked traditional rhythm styles.   IMHO, for that they rock.  If I take a J-45 on stage in a bluegrass set, I mostly pick lead directly into the mic with finger picks.

 

Residential painting contractors

So I'm one of those worship leader people who stand on stage and strum chords pretty much only.. haha. However, I love the look and feel of a good J45 (my field is pretty much dominated by taylors) but when doing some research some folks say that its primarily a fingerpicking guitar. Is this true or just opinions just like pretty much everything else.

[Murph]

On 3/6/2024 at 1:39 AM, dhanners623 said:

The J-45’s relative scarcity in bluegrass has more to do with the didactic herd mentality of bluegrass musicians than with actual sound. Charlie Monroe was perfectly content to play Gibson slopes, and since he was present at the creation of bluegrass (accompanying brother Bill Monroe) then his choice of instruments can’t be discounted. Even Cleo Davis, who succeeded Charlie on guitar, played Gibson slopes. By the time Lester Flatt joined the band in ‘46, Martins were in vogue. If Lester had played a J-45, people today would consider a D-18 or D-28 too boomy for bluegrass.

Sean Watkins plays bluegrass "style" with a Gibby, but yea, it is weird how that turned out.

I'm sticking with mine, but I'm not hardly strictly bluegrass, either... 

[Phil OKeefe]

It all comes down to personal preference, but this guy always seemed to do just fine playing fingerstyle on a J-50. 

 

 

[Dave F]

It’s in the fingers not the guitar

Edited March 8 by Dave F

[tpbiii]

Quote

The J-45’s relative scarcity in bluegrass has more to do with the didactic herd mentality of bluegrass musicians than with actual sound. Charlie Monroe was perfectly content to play Gibson slopes, and since he was present at the creation of bluegrass (accompanying brother Bill Monroe) then his choice of instruments can’t be discounted. Even Cleo Davis, who succeeded Charlie on guitar, played Gibson slopes. By the time Lester Flatt joined the band in ‘46, Martins were in vogue. If Lester had played a J-45, people today would consider a D-18 or D-28 too boomy for bluegrass.

There’s no reason a J-45 can’t be fingerpicked, and fingerpicked well. Are there “better” guitars for fingerpicking? Maybe. But you play what you got….

I am guessing here you don't play a lot of traditional bluegrass.

  In the Monroe Brothers, Charlie played an original Jumbo.  The Monroe Brothers were a raw traditional band, where the rhythm had very little in common with later bluegrass music.  When he broke up with Charlie, Bill first teamed up with Cleo Davis, and tried for awhile to sound like the Monroe Brothers.  In 1939, Bill bought a J-35 -- similar specs to the then discontinued Jumbo. 

https://imgur.com/rehwMbi

Cleo Davis, 1939

https://imgur.com/CjskR7u

by the time "Bluegrass Music" actually got define -- c. 1945 -- Everything had changed.  Monroe used a 1939 D-28, with that power and mid-range RW roar so that it became a defining element of the all-important legendary bluegrass rhythm.

 

 

There are Gibsons which will do that, but they were not being produced after about 1940.

But not J-45s -- they could never do that or anything like it.

They do make good ragtime guitars and county strummers.

😎

[dhanners623]

Everyone seems to want to define what “traditional” bluegrass is. The music Bill and Charlie played was bluegrass — it had that “high lonesome sound” that’s a prerequisite — even if the name didn’t come along until late ‘45 after Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs joined the band. So, yeah, thanks for that.

[JWG4927]

Photo bomb "T" carpet bombs another thread.

[tpbiii]

Quote

Everyone seems to want to define what “traditional” bluegrass is. The music Bill and Charlie played was bluegrass — it had that “high lonesome sound” that’s a prerequisite — even if the name didn’t come along until late ‘45 after Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs joined the band. So, yeah, thanks for that.

Of course, this stuff is very well known by a lot of people.  Monroe did not like the genre to be called bluegrass music because he considered it to be his music until people started calling him the FATHER OF BLUEGRASS MUSIC. 

Since the question was about bluegrass music, guitars, and the J-45, it occurred to me I had examples of all the guitars in question with high quality recordings of their rhythm.  Also since I played bluegrass and also often brought along a couple of banner J-45s and SJs, (  as well as herringbones, AJ, etc.) I could provide a pretty good demo of the issues.  So I did.  I hope some of you enjoyed it.

 

Best,

-Tom

[Dave F]

18 minutes ago, tpbiii said:

Of course, this stuff is very well known by a lot of people.  Monroe did not like the genre to be called bluegrass music because he considered it to be his music until people started calling him the FATHER OF BLUEGRASS MUSIC. 

Since the question was about bluegrass music, guitars, and the J-45, it occurred to me I had examples of all the guitars in question with high quality recordings of their rhythm.  Also since I played bluegrass and also often brought along a couple of banner J-45s and SJs, (  as well as herringbones, AJ, etc.) I could provide a pretty good demo of the issues.  So I did.  I hope some of you enjoyed it.

 

Best,

-Tom

I always enjoy your post

[BluesKing777]

Getting back to fingerpicking J45s from the first post.......

You lot can believe your own whatevers, but it is not fair of the new guitarists who are looking for information to be fingerpickers........  a J45 is just too bassy and the wrong spacings for fingerpicking. A guitar designed for fingerpicking is better, balanced sound across the strings, more space to move around.

My opinion:

Of the readily available acoustics for sale off the shelf, the Martin 000-28 Eric Clapton is way more suited to fingerpicking than a J45. I like mid 30s Gibson L-00s and the copy Waterloo WL-14x plus the WL-14L ladder braced.

Anyway, I googled ‘What is the best acoustic guitar for fingerpicking?’ And was taken to a Guitar World article that I shall copy parts of below:

 

 

Looking to take up, or excel at, fingerstyle? Then we recommend you seriously consider purchasing a fingerstyle guitar that’s been designed and built for the job. While it’s possible to play fingerstyle on any guitar, the best fingerstyle guitars are much better suited to fast-flowing, full-finger action.

 

Rather than relying on a pick, fingerstyle players use, you’ve guessed it, their fingers to pluck their guitar’s strings. This technique reveals huge opportunities including harmony in your repertoire, because instead of being limited to single melodic lines, plus perhaps a bass line, you can use all four fingers and your thumb to sound up to five notes at a time.

 

Of course, using a pick provides more power than flesh and nail, and enables a stronger attack and potentially higher volume. Which is why dedicated fingerstyle guitars are constructed differently to the larger, heavily built dreadnoughts and jumbos you’ll find in the hands of many flatpickers. In contrast, fingerstyle guitars are built to emit the finest, sweetest and most balanced tone, even when played with a light touch.

 

BluesKing777.

Edited March 8 by BluesKing777

[rbpicker]

Fingerpick or fingerstyle?  Two different animals.  I fingerpick my J45 and J50, but if I wanted a guitar for fingerstyle, I’d look at a different configuration.

rb

[E-minor7]

This topic was up not so long ago and the responses were more or less the same. Looong story short = Jez, J-45/50/slope SJ can definitely be fingerpicked.                                                                                         Some of the finest popular folk-tunes from the golden era between 1965 and 75 should prove it in case anybody is in doubt. 

Hard to see why the short scale would be in the way for max f-p. Quite the opposite, I'm tempted to say. . 

Edited March 9 by E-minor7

[E-minor7]

13 minutes ago, E-minor7 said:

This topic was up not so long ago and the responses were more or less the same. Looong story short = Jez, , , ,

As a matter of fact in 2022 - 'ere we go, , , or went. .
 

 

[tpbiii]

Quote

Fingerpick or fingerstyle?  Two different animals.  I fingerpick my J45 and J50, but if I wanted a guitar for fingerstyle, I’d look at a different configuration.

Either can mean many things.  The reason I posted the videos of me playing three finger alternating thumb style with finger picks on the banner  J-45 is to show what I do personally on my old J-45s and  SJs.  This is so you can interpret  what I say from examples.   I also have a bare finger instrumental style I use just to play songs -- but I seldom use a J-45 -- mostly 00 20s and 30s Martins, which are as sweet as honey,  I have spent many hours playing this style alone -- the J-45s are usually played with/to people or practicing for same.  I am not saying this is right or wrong -- just an explanation of what I have learned playing them for myself and friends  over the past 35 to 50+ years.   I guess showing you pictures of my old guitars that are the subjects of my posts is called carpet photo bombing.  There seems to be so much interests in the old guitars, I thought I was being nice.  Because of the recent crazy vintage guitar market I guess it is a fair statement that many people seldom see them and/or get to hear and play them a lot. 

I did not make those 1000s of recordings and 10000s of high resolution photos to show them to you, but as part of a serious 45 year effort to study the properties of the sound pallet of the early 20th century.

Music -- at least my music -- is personal.   I know yours is too.  It is a wonderful obsession each of can enjoy in our own way. 

Let's pick,

-Tom

[scriv58]

tpbiii- i find your posts to be both entertaining and informative, and the pictures are wonderful as are the videos. Please do not take offense when some thoughtless attention craving philistine makes a rude passing remark. Although I enjoy perusing this forum, it is the least pleasant guitar forum due the lack of moderation of adult feral children.

Please continue with your posts and photos, and best wishes to you as well.

[fortyearspickn]

1 hour ago, scriv58 said:

tpbiii- i find your posts to be both entertaining and informative, and the pictures are wonderful as are the videos. Please do not take offense when some thoughtless attention craving philistine makes a rude passing remark. Although I enjoy perusing this forum, it is the least pleasant guitar forum due the lack of moderation of adult feral children.

Please continue with your posts and photos, and best wishes to you as well.

I represent that !

[fortyearspickn]

After centuries,  devolving from the 'First Guitar'  which was probably in Spain and probably had nylon (catgut) strings - professionals who play Classical (or it's evil twin Flamenco) would probably cringe at being called 'finger pickers'.   They've tweaked and enhanced their 'Classical' guitars to something foreign to what we generally think of - take a J45 for example.  The strings are REALLY far apart and there is no fretboard radius.  Often different woods top, back and sides.  Even hold them weird.     So, in the context of someone starting out on the road to fingerpicking,  I think there is a wide range of acceptability between a Classical guitar and a steel string guitar.   If, and when you get to the point you need and want and deserve an upgrade so you can play - IE. fingerpick- better, you'll probably know what you want.  You might see a video of Molly Tuttle or Billy Strings and take a 180 !