Jump to content
Gibson Brands Forums

'politics' and music

milod

By milod
in The Gibson Lounge

Recommended Posts

milod

milod

Posted
Posted

I just noted this on my web home page...

 

This is an example when "politics" does affect music.

 

As a note from history, Link Wray's instrumental "Rumble" was banned on a number of radio stations largely because of the name itself in an era when "rumble" meant a high school teen gang fight as well as a type of noise.

 

This would seem to be not dissimilar. Note that an "instrumental" version of the song was planned.

 

m

==================================

Court: Student can't sue over 'Ave Maria' ban

 

By JESSE J. HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer Jesse J. Holland, Associated Press Writer

 

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court on Monday refused to let a high school student sue over school officials' refusal to let her play an instrumental version of "Ave Maria" at her graduation, a decision one justice says could lead to wide-ranging censorship of student speech.

 

The high court on Monday refused to hear an appeal from Kathryn Nurre, a former student at Henry M. Jackson High School. Nurre, who was a senior in 2006, wanted to play "Ave Maria" — Hail Mary in Latin — with the band's wind ensemble at the graduation.

 

Administrators raised red flags at the Everett, Wash., school when they heard about the idea from the wind ensemble seniors, who had played Franz Biebl's uptempo 1964 rendering of "Ave Maria" without controversy at a winter concert.

 

A year before, choral performance of the song "Up Above My Head" at the 2005 commencement drew complaints and protest letters to the town's newspaper. Therefore, school officials said the seniors could not play the song since the title alone identified "Ave Maria" as religious and that graduation should be strictly secular.

 

Nurre sued, claiming unspecified damages from infringement of First Amendment rights. The federal courts threw out the lawsuit, with judges saying it was reasonable for a school official to prohibit the performance of an obviously religious piece.

 

The court's majority turned away her request for appeal without comment. But Justice Samuel Alito said he would have heard her case.

 

There are nearly 10 million students under the jurisdiction of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, Alito said. The decision by the San Francisco-based appeals court could lead to censorship of other forms of student expression outside of music, like student speeches and other school events.

 

"A reasonable reading of the Ninth Circuit's decision is that it authorizes school administrators to ban any controversial student expression at any school event attended by parents because of the importance of the event for the participating students," Alito said. "A decision with such potentially broad and troubling implications merits our review."

 

The case is Nurre v. Whitehead, 09-671.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NeoConMan

NeoConMan

Posted
Posted

Yeah, but what about "legal" stuff?

 

[cool]

 

Anything under the influence or within the bounds of the Ninth US Circus has to be secular.

Anything dating back to our Founding Fathers - or God forbid, Jesus (!!!) - is so out of fashion now.

 

Arizona falls within that jurisdiction as well.

Good luck getting to the Supreme Court with those clowns in the way.

 

But if you do, the Supreme Court has a great record for overturning their stupid-*** decisions.

The Ninth Circus has been spanked again and again due to their incompetence...

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Californiaman

Californiaman

Posted
Posted

It seems to me that while the 9th district court of appeals may have had some validity to their argument, the students could have played it anyway. Simply declare that you are going to play one song and then sneak Ave Maria in. Teenagers are oft viewed as "rebellious," "impetuous," and generally don't want to follow rules set forth by school district personnel, administrators and board members.

 

I say they should have played it anyway. What could they have done to them, withhold their diplomas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
charlie brown

charlie brown

Posted
Posted

That, should never have gone to court, much less the Supreme Court, in the first place! IMHO

It's a SONG! And, a beautiful one, at that! Religious connotations, or not. SO WHAT?!

Why do the majority, of law abiding, "God Fearing" (Are we even allowed to say that, anymore?!)

people, have to cowtow, to some secular athiestic or agnostic or other minority's idea, of their kind of "free speech?!"

What happened to Tolerance? I don't care, if someone is Athiest, Agnostic, Chrisitian, Jew, whatever...even Muslim...

as long as they don't try to take my rights (or life) away, to be what I want to be, in the process.

Pretty soon, you won't be allowed to play guitar, or music, without being labled a Christian:-$ or some other "Subversive!"

It's really quite insane!

 

CB

 

 

Seig Heil![blink]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
milod

milod

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Actually my point was - with mentioning "Rumble" that people get in a wad over instrumental music?

 

Excluding perhaps the Horst Wessel Lied that few if any would even recognize as such today, it seems to me that excluding an instrumental on "religious/political" grounds is as silly as the radio stations banning "rumble."

 

It has nothing to do with religion per se, even as performance of a Bach "mass" or "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is not a "religious," but rather a musical expression if done as an instrumental.

 

Hmmmmm. Let's see, one might play some Bach or Haydn with no problem, but other pieces we can't?

 

OTOH, I'll tend to agree that a lyric might be objectionable on a number of grounds. But a tune?

 

Should we outlaw "Satin Doll" instrumental from a high school performance because it has to do with a female persona from some 60-70 decades ago that may not currently be politically correct? What of the Star Spangled Banner that is a bit pugnacious in a verse or so - or what of "God Save the Queen" if a Brit sports group plays in the US?

 

I dunno. Again, were it with the lyric, I could feature complaints. I know I couldn't sing more than the name of the song along with the tune of Ave Maria.

 

m

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NeoConMan

NeoConMan

Posted
Posted

"Devil's advocate" was once a euphemism for choosing an opposing side in debate - for exercise.

Now it's become a badge of secular honor, undermining the very essence of society.

I could go on to defend my assertion, but I don't have to.

 

Look at the pride, the veritable glee with which the term is tossed about now.

 

Look at centuries of history around the globe.

See what man gets when he arrogantly believes in nothing but himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
pippy

pippy

Posted
Posted
an instrumental version of "Ave Maria"

 

To be a complete' date=' er, pedant (arse?) I should point out that the [u']words[/u] for 'Ave Maria' were written by Gounod to be sung to the theme of Prelude No. 1 in C major from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier (BWV 846) by J. S. Bach and, as such, the music has no religious significance whatsoever.

 

If the student was indeed intending to perform "an instrumental version", i.e. the music as written by Bach, how didn't even any two-bit lawyer not realise this glaringly obviously fact?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
milod

milod

Posted
  • Author
Posted

To get this a bit more "on track..."

 

What bothers me is not the specifics of this case, or the "Rumble" situation, but rather how it tends to affect, any may in the future continue to affect musicians in their performance repertoire.

 

I've done a "classical guitar" version of Bach's Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring for years. Is that now so politically incorrect I couldn't play it at a public function without concern somebody would get hung up about it?

 

I dunno. As I've said, lyrics are one thing. But as one who enjoys "classical" music, I'm a bit concerned about the consequences of someone deciding that it's okay to ban performance of a piece of instrumental music.

 

Personally the only exception I could agree with would be stuff like Horst Wessel, but that's horridly political in a way I think most of us would agree with, and therefore might be considered quite insulting to perform.

 

On the other hand, the "Internationale" has never received such a ban, and "speech advocates" have pressed for all kinds of openness of lyric material that appears on its face to be encouraging violence and lawbreaking. Interesting, eh?

 

So... how does a musician respond? Will this cut the repertoire of orchestras?

 

m

Link to comment
Share on other sites
zigzag

zigzag

Posted
Posted

Neo, I hadn't given the idea of playing devil's advocate that much thought, I just thought it was an interesting concept in light of this discussion.

 

I know I'm going to regret this...

 

I find it interesting that when libertarians argue that they believe in the spirit of the original Bill of Rights, but argue against the idea of separation of church and state taken in this (most literal) example.

 

Personally, it wouldn't matter to me if she had been allowed to do Ave Maria; I am a Christian and I love that little ditty. If the separation of church and state means that the state should not advocate any one religion over another, then couldn't the performance of that song in a state sponsored event be considered a violation of the spirit of that law?

 

I'm with the person who said that she should have done the performance anyway as an act of civil disobedience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
zigzag

zigzag

Posted
Posted
To be a complete' date=' er, pedant (arse?) I should point out that the [u']words[/u] for 'Ave Maria' were written by Gounod to be sung to the theme of Prelude No. 1 in C major from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier (BWV 846) by J. S. Bach and, as such, the music has no religious significance whatsoever.

 

If the student was indeed intending to perform "an instrumental version", i.e. the music as written by Bach, how didn't even any two-bit lawyer not realise this glaringly obviously fact?

 

Bingo!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NeoConMan

NeoConMan

Posted
Posted
Neo' date=' I hadn't given the idea of playing devil's advocate that much thought [/quote']

Not aimed directly at you ZZ, it was a broader observation.

 

And the idea of separation of church & state is one that has become a monster all by itself.

It has no basis in fact, nor was it ever used in any legislation.

Libertarians (I consider myself one) and Secularists/Athiests are squealing about NOTHING.

 

I am a Christian but I don't care who else is - because I'm not a crusader.

But I will be the first to step into the breech when I see hostility toward Faith.

 

Am I a bit biased toward Christianity - even at the expense of other religions?

If my hand is forced, absolutely.

The same bias that is constantly and popularly denied in our nation's founding and the inspiration of our laws.

 

 

 

If the separation of church and state means

Nothing?

That's right' date=' it means nothing.

It's simply a catch-phrase, buzzwords and sloganeering for rebels without a clue.

I am honestly not trying to insult anyone, just stating the truth with the invitation for debate if need be.

Where was there ever a delineation or decision made in US law to reinforce such a concept?

 

The move away from Christianity in our schools is the result of political correctness under multiple guises.

Nothing more.

 

 

 

I'm with the person who said that she should have done the performance

anyway as an act of civil disobedience.

I hear ya.

 

[biggrin]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
brundaddy

brundaddy

Posted
Posted
Good luck getting to the Supreme Court with those clowns in the way.

 

It was submitted to SCOTUS. They declined to take it -- de facto upholding the 9th Circuit ruling.

 

But if you do' date=' the Supreme Court has a great record for overturning their stupid-*** decisions.

The Ninth Circus has been spanked again and again due to their incompetence...[/quote']

 

Um, see above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NeoConMan

NeoConMan

Posted
Posted

I don't know the percentages, but very few cases sent to the SCOTUS actually get considered.

Simply too many.

 

And if you like, you can compare the Ninth Circus to the others in SCOTUS rulings to the contrary.

See for yourself how many of their decisions are overturned compared to their peers in other districts.

 

I stand by my statement regarding their incompetence....

Link to comment
Share on other sites
grampa

grampa

Posted
Posted
To be a complete' date=' er, pedant (arse?) I should point out that the [u']words[/u] for 'Ave Maria' were written by Gounod to be sung to the theme of Prelude No. 1 in C major from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier (BWV 846) by J. S. Bach and, as such, the music has no religious significance whatsoever.

 

If the student was indeed intending to perform "an instrumental version", i.e. the music as written by Bach, how didn't even any two-bit lawyer not realise this glaringly obviously fact?

 

I thought the words were part of the Catholic liturgy, hail Mary and all. But being as I'm not a christian, I may be wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
charlie brown

charlie brown

Posted
Posted

Believe what you want to believe, express it, as is everyone's right (so far, anyway).

But, allow the other person, to do likewise, with respect. I don't always agree or disagree with

everyone here, on everything. SO WHAT?! Doesn't mean I have to try to persuade them

to my way(s) thinking, either. I think "Political Correctness" is killing this country, not saving it.

Let folks make up their own minds, given good (truthful) information, and expeirence all the

consequences, of that freedom. Instead, we're (all too often) at one another's throats, because...

our ego's (mostly), have been bruised. It's really just egomaniacal power plays, be it political,

religious, economic, whatever....Individually, State, Country, etc.

 

CB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...