A question about bar chords (or are they barre chords?) for the experts on this forum.

[Notes_Norton]

A question about bar chords (or are they barre chords?)

 

I learned bar chords (or barre chords - which is correct?) before learning open string chords.

 

Other guitarists I play with started the other way around.

 

So when talking to them about bar/barre chords, there is often a communication problem which we would like to overcome. But to do so, we would like to know if there is a correct way to do so.

 

So here we go. Let's take the two most common of these chord positions:

 

We all know the bar/barre F chord in the first fret and the Bb bar/barre chord in the same fret (and they move up the neck to become other chords with the same fingering positions.)

 

Ignoring any upper octave duplications, the F has the root on the 6th string and the Bb has the root on the 5th string.

 

What do you call them? When moved to the 5th fret they are of course now A and D chords so we can't call them F and Bb position chords without things getting confusing.

 

We started calling the F position chord "first position" and the Bb one "second position".

 

It's a way of communicating without saying "look! This one!"

 

But since the roots are on the 6th and 5th strings, we started thinking, "should they be called 6th and 5th position chords?"

 

Is there an established nomenclature for this?

 

Another name we haven't thought of?

 

(I hope I explained myself well).

 

I've googled it in vain so I'm coming here for an expert opinion because there are a lot of experts on this list.

 

And while you are at it, is it bar or barre?

 

Thanks,

Notes

[tulsaslim]

I don't know what's 'formally' correct. I've always referred to them (chordings, that is) as an extention of the 'open' chord. As you say, the F (barring the 1st fret) is an E when open (one fret down). Likewise the A (B flat in 1st fret).

 

So I might describe an A barre chord as 'an E five frets up'. Or a C as 'an A three frets up'. Probably not the correct way but it's what I do.

 

Most of the time I play the 'power' chord versions of both of them. For the E formation I just play the three low strings (using my first finger on the 6th string & my 3rd finger on the 5th & 4th) and for the A formation I do the same thing, just one string higher (5th, 4th, & 3rd strings). That way I can switch between I and IV without changing my finger positions. I'm sure a lot of you other guys do that, too.

 

For the most part, if I'm using any distortion, I think playing more than 3 strings at a time just creats 'a bucket or mud'. It's ok to play all 6 strings at once if you're in a real clean setting but not when you're using any distortion.

[brad1]

Notes:

I know exactly what your talking about. However, I am not able to explain a way to get around this problem, even though I know how. It's too complicated for an inexperienced player as myself. But let me tell you how I learned a way around this problem. It's a book called Fretboard Logic. You may have seen it in GP magazine or at Guitar Center. Bill Edwards, the author, goes into great detail about this very subject. I recommend it.

[charlie brown]

I've always just looked at it as the finger doing the barring, as being like the "nut," and the other fingers

falling into the "open" positions (E, C, D, A, Am, etc.), behind it. In some cases you flatten out, one finger

to cross 2 or 3 stings, in the case of an "A" (or in your "F" example...the Bb). Then just moving it up to the

appropriate frets, to chang keys. It's an oversimplification, but it's worked, for me.

 

CB

[Ron G]

I use the fret as a position reference. For example, Bb at the first fret vs Bb at the 6th fret.

And when playing with others, I'll often play chords in a different position than the other guy

to give more texture to the guitar sounds.

[charlie brown]

I use the fret as a position reference. For example' date=' Bb at the first fret vs Bb at the 6th fret.

And when playing with others, I'll often play chords in a different position than the other guy

to give more texture to the guitar sounds.[/quote']

 

Yeah, Ron...I do the same thing. If the "Rhythm" guitist is in open chords, I'll do the Barre chords...

or the reverse.

It IS "Barre" chords, according the the dictonary, and Wikipedia.

 

 

CB

[Ron G]

It IS "Barre" chords' date=' according the the dictonary, and Wikipedia.[/quote']

 

....bar chords if you're playing in a tavern

 

Norton, don't forget that a basic 4-string F chord is a barre chord, too - where the index finger is "barring" the first 2 strings at the first fret - some call it a baby barre.

[charlie brown]

 

....bar chords if you're playing in a tavern

 

Works for me! And, I will be, later this evening...

 

CB

[dbirchett]

As I understand it, this is the theory behind the C-A-G-E-D system, where chords are varients of the open C, A, G, E, or D chord, just moving them up frets and accomodating them with the barre or other such fingering. (Would that be raising the barre?)

 

I learned open chords first but was shown the barre chords very early in my career. I had enough theory through early piano lessons, choir and band that it all made sense to me.

[brad1]

As I understand it' date=' this is the theory behind the C-A-G-E-D system, where chords are varients of the open C, A, G, E, or D chord, just moving them up frets and accomodating them with the barre or other such fingering. (Would that be raising the barre?)

 

I learned open chords first but was shown the barre chords very early in my career. I had enough theory through early piano lessons, choir and band that it all made sense to me. [/quote']

You are correct! That book I spoke of earlier goes over the C-A-G-E-D system and how to use it in great detail.

In fact the author claims to have been the one who came up with the system.

[PP_CS336]

Bob, The correct nomenclature is barre chords. The other word, bar in music, as you probably already know,

refers to the line in written that separates the measures on a musical staff. Anyhow, a barre chord is a chord

in which you don't play any open strings and there are various forms, whether they be Major, Minor, Dom7,

Min7, Dim, Aug, etc.. You get the point. The position of the chord is based upon the placement of the 1st finger.

As Charlie Brown mentioned, you can think of the first finger as the new placement of the nut or as they call it

technically in guitar music in Italian, Capo (that's what we like to use when we want to change keys and use

what's most commonly called open chords, as used in the first position). I'm a gonna cheat.:-

 

As you described in your note, if you take an E Major chord form from the open position, slide up on fret and lay

your first finger over the first fret position, then you have an F Major chord. And if you were to take that same

form and do it an the 5th fret it would be an A Major chord. That's because the root note of the chord is on

the 6th string and each position you move it up the chord takes it's name from the root note of that position

on the 6th string, in this case A.

 

Now the other form you mentioned that's built off the open A chord in the open position takes it's name as

you go up the fretboard from the name of the note on the 5th string that is the root of the chord. So if you

play that barre chord in the 1st position it is a Bb major barre chord. In the 5th position it would be a D major

barre chord as the root note on the 5th string/5th fret is a D note.

 

Don't confuse the string of the root note with the position, as you said that if the F major barre chord in the

first position with the root on the 6th string/first fret and then the Bb major chord with its root on the 5th string/

first fret must be the second position. That's totally wrong and then you're really opening yourself up to confusion.

This is why it's hard to communicate with other players that don't understand the correct concept. I play with

a guy who's a cracker jack lead guitar player (plays totally by ear) and when I start talking positions to him regarding chords or scales he gets totally lost and flustered. What frustrates me is that he doesn't want to learn anything

from what I try to tell/show him ("I'll figure it out on my own..."):D . Gee, take a free music lesson when you have

the opportunity pal.

[rafaelh]

What do you call them? When moved to the 5th fret they are of course now A and D chords so we can't call them F and Bb position chords without things getting confusing.

 

We started calling the F position chord "first position" and the Bb one "second position".

 

It's a way of communicating without saying "look! This one!"

 

But since the roots are on the 6th and 5th strings' date=' we started thinking, "should they be called 6th and 5th position chords?"[/quote']

 

I sometimes have to play of charts and the way I see them mostly writting, or differentiated, is in shapes. I'll see two different fingerings and referd to as shape 1 or shape 2 two in the header and later on through out the music as "A shape2" for example.

 

As far as calling the barre F chord the 1st position and the Bb the 2nd position might work within a familiar bunch, but somebody new sitting in wont have a clue as to what your talking about. I myself don't understand why you are calling F the 1st position and Bb the second position. Unless you consider all barre chords with the root note on the 6th string first positions....then F would be the second, E would be the first. The nut's a barre too

 

Most of the time folks just call it out in fret positions. As an A on the fith fret, or F on the 8th fret, and so on...we just talking barre chords now.

 

LOL...looks like we all was typing at the same time.

[snookelputz]

Barre, bar -- makes no difference. Just French or English. Here is French to English dictionary definition:

 

 

1 barre Noun, feminine (a) iron bar, rod, wooden rod, (Sport) bar; (Jur) bar

[Notes_Norton]

Bob' date=' The correct nomenclature is barre chords. The other word, bar in music, as you probably already know,

refers to the line in written that separates the measures on a musical staff. [/quote']

 

Thanks for that. I've seen it spelled both ways, and I wondered which is correct. My musical dictionary doesn't answer that question for me.

 

Anyhow' date=' a barre chord is a chord

in which you don't play any open strings and there are various forms, whether they be Major, Minor, Dom7,

Min7, Dim, Aug, etc.. You get the point. The position of the chord is based upon the placement of the 1st finger.

As Charlie Brown mentioned, you can think of the first finger as the new placement of the nut or as they call it

technically in guitar music in Italian, Capo (that's what we like to use when we want to change keys and use

what's most commonly called open chords, as used in the first position). [/quote']

 

OK, I have all that. I get around the fretboard chord-wise well for all but the chords with many extensions, then I have to look them up and learn a new hand position.

 

As you described in your note' date=' if you take an E Major chord form from the open position, slide up on fret and lay

your first finger over the first fret position, then you have an F Major chord. And if you were to take that same

form and do it an the 5th fret it would be an A Major chord. That's because the root note of the chord is on

the 6th string and each position you move it up the chord takes it's name from the root note of that position

on the 6th string, in this case A.[/quote']

 

I understand all that. And I know enough theory to know where the triad and extensions (if any) are in the chord inversion.

 

<...>Don't confuse the string of the root note with the position' date=' as you said that if the F major barre chord in the

first position with the root on the 6th string/first fret and then the Bb major chord with its root on the 5th string/

first fret must be the second position. That's totally wrong and then you're really opening yourself up to confusion.

This is why it's hard to communicate with other players that don't understand the correct concept. <...> [/quote']

 

That's exactly the problem. If the other person says, Which B7 chord did you use there (pointing to a chord in a fake book) I can say the F7 chord on the 7th fret, but that throws F into the mix, and I found that confuses a friend of mine who was brought up in the open-string-put-a-capo-on-it style of playing. So we are looking for a way to describe that so he knows I'm on the 7th fret and not the 2nd (for example). Of course, I could just say, "look" and show him, but there should be a way to verbally communicate this.

 

We thought of first position for F and second for Bb (first fret) but I thought that would get confusing because I want to know where the root is. I guess that comes from playing bass for a few years and learning the notes on the bass fretboard which of course are repeated on the guitar. Especially when you figure that the root can be on any one of the strings.

 

So we were looking for a way to talk about this, and I figured I'd try to find out if there was a standard way to say it without resorting to things like "open E chord barred in the 3rd fret" for a G Major.

 

So perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, or perhaps there is no answer. Is there a name for the certain, common hand positions so I can say "_____?_______" on the 6th fret and have the guitar community know what I am talking about?

 

Thanks,

Notes

[brad1]

 

Is there a name for the certain' date=' common hand positions so I can say "_____?_______" on the 6th fret and have the guitar community know what I am talking about?

[/quote']

Yes. I and dbirchett told you that it can be done with the caged system. I can scan a few pages and email it to you if you'd like?

[Ron G]

So perhaps I didn't explain myself properly' date=' or perhaps there is no answer. Is there a name for the certain, common hand positions so I can say "_____?_______" on the 6th fret and have the guitar community know what I am talking about?[/quote']

 

That's why I'll always refer to the actual chord, plus position (if position matters).

On the sixth fret, for example, I can think of three common chords, one not being a

barre; Bb, Eb and F7.

[PP_CS336]

Bob asked...

So perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, or perhaps there is no answer. Is there a name for the certain, common hand positions so I can say "_____?_______" on the 6th fret and have the guitar community know what I am talking about?

 

That's the $64,000.00 question (Remember the Honey Mooner's episode where Ralph Cramden, played by Jackie

Gleason, and Ed Norton, played by Art Carnie?). Ralph thought he was the music know-it-all and blew it on

"Swaney River" by Stephen Foster because Ed used to annoy him all the time using that as his warmup?)

 

Yeh, that's the thing with a fake book...the chord just shows up in name only. It's up to the player to decide which

form they want to use based upon their knowledge and experience what position they want to play it in. It also

depends if your signing and want to find the most economical way to pass from one chord to the next (we're

not all freakin' George Bensons. LOL!!!) or following someone else and you want to "paint color" along with them,

i.e. do you want it dark, using the heavier string notes or do you want it bright, using the lighter guaged string notes.

You can play the same note or same chord (name-wise) in different positions having the same pitch, but the strings

that they're played on provide the timbre, thus giving you the dark or bright. So in that respect sound is color.

and as an artist you get to pick and choose depending on what you want to display for the listening ear.

 

I have a book by Al Di Meola called, "A Guide to Chords, Scales, & Arpegios" and of course we know he got most of his knowledge from Berklee in Boston, MA. He uses these forms I - VI depending on whether you're talking the Major form, Minor, Dom, m7, Maj7, 9ths, Maj9, 11th's, 13th's mixing of Maj/Min 7ths, b5's #5's, etc.. Then there's Arnie Berle's "Book of Modern Chords and Progressions Guitar", Mel Bay's "Guitar Chords". Each guy shows the same form but addresses it in a slightly different way. I guess it really all depends upon how much musical knowledge the person

you're trying to communicate has. Music is a language all it's own just like the spoken language. Each instrument you play has it's own idiosyncracies and depending on how much of the language you learned formally will depend on how

much you can speak to or if spoken to understand what's trying to be communicated. Again like any language, the more you really know about it's fundamentals the easier it is to understand the mechanics of it.

 

I think the answer truly lies with one's experience and/or knowledge of the subject, be it music or anything else.

People can do it both ways, i.e., whether they just learn some things and play it by ear, or whether you learn

what it's about through formal or informal learning. It's like command of the spoken language. Those who truly master the grammar and vocabulary can do so much more in communicating and understanding what it is they're doing and be able to explain to another (hopefully at their level) than someone who says, I don't really know what this is or how this really translates to that, or hoe it works, but it works. And it's less frustrating. I think even a little command of the language can help so much in communicating than none at all.

[Parabar]

When I play them, they're 'bar chords.

 

When that feller from Jethro Tull plays them, they're Barre chords.

 

The rest of you are on your own!

[luvastogie]

I like the way my teacher explained it to me. He called them by the shape of the original chord. "A" shaped E or "C" shaped F, etc.

[vanessa]

 

 

[bluesstringer]

Bob,

 

I think you're doing what you all need to do, i.e. coming up with a system that works for the two of you. PaulP is correct in all that he says about it. I learned, by ear, the way your friend did, open first, barre next. I'm not used to playing with anyone where we really had to call them anything other that the actual chord designation if anything but I always think of them in the position the remainder of the fingers are in, like CB, Paul and others have said. E formation, A formation, Am, Em, whatever.

 

Hope this helps bro!

[bluesstringer]

 

Yeah' date=' Ron...I do the same thing. If the "Rhythm" guitist is in open chords, I'll do the Barre chords...

or the reverse.

It IS "Barre" chords, according the the dictonary, and Wikipedia.

 

 

CB[/quote']

 

I do this all the time when playing iwith other guitarists, it's second nature! Man I hang out with some crafty bros !!!

[Ron G]

I'm still a little fuzzy about Notes' original question. As far as I'm concerned a C is a C is a C (chord, that is). Except an open C sounds like this, a barre C at the 3rd sounds like this and a barre C at the 8th sounds like this - and maybe I choose one or the other because of its physical proximity to another chord in the song (easier to change to) or I like the sound of one position more than the others, although I tend to mix and match. I've gotten quite adept at interchanging positions at will. SOmeone please help me understand exactly what Notes wants.

[PP_CS336]

 

I do this all the time when playing with other guitarists' date=' it's second nature! Man I hang out with some crafty bros !!![/quote']

 

Charlie Brown wrote:

 

 

Yeah, Ron...I do the same thing. If the "Rhythm" guitist is in open chords, I'll do the Barre chords...

or the reverse.

It IS "Barre" chords, according the the dictonary, and Wikipedia.

 

 

CB

 

I agree guys with John and CB...when you have more than one guitar player, why play the same chords in the

same position. That's one of the things I meant by "color" or "painting" with your guitar.

 

"So get all those blues; most be a thousand hues. Each is differently used you must know..."

 

from "Bluebird" by Stephen Stills. Now the Buffalo Springfield and or CSN&Y were cats who knew how

to play off of each other.:-

[bluelake07]

But since the roots are on the 6th and 5th strings, we started thinking, "should they be called 6th and 5th position chords?"

 

They are called 6th-string root chords and 5th-string root chords. You could call out "A root 6" or "D root 5". Could also say, "A sixth root" or "D fifth root" but I find those a little harder to say.