Define Sellout

[Artie Owl]

I guess I should add, about the whole money thing; a band who does it to eat isn't selling out because they're doing what they HAVE to. A band that's got oodles of money and does it anyway, THAT'S selling out IMO.

[swleary]

Metallica came to Bob Rock with a copy of Dr. Feelgood, (which was THE commercial record of the day) threw it on his desk and told him, "We want THAT."

 

It's foolish to think they didn't sell out -- they told Rock, "we'll do whatever, just make us a megaselling album."

 

 

I'll kinda argue on this one, yes they did that...But that sure didn't comeout sounding like crue...I think it was more about getting a bigger piece of the pie

[Silenced Fred]

I guess I should add, about the whole money thing; a band who does it to eat isn't selling out because they're doing what they HAVE to. A band that's got oodles of money and does it anyway, THAT'S selling out IMO.

 

That's the point I was trying to make. Just because you don't like big businesses, does that mean you should turn down a job to make a living?

[WahKeen]

Remember, the music business is not designed to cater to the artists as it is to make the almighty dollar. They'll drop you if you don't sell. If Led Zeppelin hadn't sold, they would have been dropped. It's all about the dough.

[cookieman15061]

Bingo 100% accurate. Foregoing your core values for the sake of fame and fortune = sellout.

 

Your assuming musicians have a core set of Values.

Big leap of faith.

[milod]

Okay, here are my thoughts on the subject:

 

1. Most musicians may have some personal preferences, but generally have more broad taste in music than they might wish to admit - especially if at the time they've gotten into kinda a genre "sound."

 

2. The #1 means that if they like other types of music than their "core" at a specific time, they're not really changing that "core" as much as shifting to another "core" that probably is every bit as much inside them but just not as popular in the subculture they inhabit at a given time. For example, look at all the old rockers and old country folks who get around 40-50 years old and suddenly start playing "standards."

 

3. No matter what the style, most professionals are willing to consider that the core of what they're doing may be fine, but that it needs a change in presentation for an audience of a sort that would pay for their music.

 

4. All of us change not only some of our own taste in music as we "grow," but also we tend to swim into different subcultures that bring a new look at stuff we're doing.

 

Bottom line, I guess, is that I can't imagine myself "selling out" for example, as long as my technical concepts that I can't change could be incorporated into a style of music that isn't what I've been doing.

 

For example, I don't even listen to rap if I can help it, but if some big rap guy came along and said, "Hey, we love what you're doing technically and we'd like to you sign up for a two-year tour," I'd have to see how he figured it'd work - and if it did work and I liked the chemistry with the other musicians, I just might do it.

 

Is that a sellout? I don't think so. I'd also think it fun to be in a decently paid country or rock group - or bluegrass or jazz or folk or...

 

m

[Mr. Natural]

You guys are all too cerebral.

[WahKeen]

You guys are all too cerebral.

 

It beats being too anal

[Mr. Natural]

I hear ya.

[duane v]

 

So post your definition of "Sellout" here and have at each other....nicely. :)

 

Any rock band that put out a disco tune.... cough cough KISS.........

 

Paul McCartney and John Lennon were big sell outs too.... They sold out their band for two ladies... Love will make you do strange things

[EVOL!]

Metallica came to Bob Rock with a copy of Dr. Feelgood, (which was THE commercial record of the day) threw it on his desk and told him, "We want THAT."

 

It's foolish to think they didn't sell out -- they told Rock, "we'll do whatever, just make us a megaselling album."

 

I am going to defend Metallica here (cannot believe I am doing this). I respect that they wanted to do something different. They had taken the speed metal symphony as far as it could go for them. They didn't sell out. The problem is that they suck as a hard rock band. Newsted had the feel, Lars did not. He cannot lay back like a hard rock drummer should. Then they proceeded to push out one of the greatest metal bassists ever; the heart and soul of Metallica's live shows. As if that weren't enough, they hired a $$$$ per day life coach and film it. Metallica ain't so mighty anymore.

 

So, sell out? No. Weak former shell of what they used to be? Yes.

[WahKeen]

Define Sellout. When a store takes out its goods and has a sale.

[Shnate McDuanus]

Joaquin...

 

I know this won't stop ya, but I really dislike these gimpy little emoticons you're using.

 

Just sayin'.

[WahKeen]

Joaquin...

 

I know this won't stop ya, but I really dislike these gimpy little emoticons you're using.

 

Just sayin'.

 

That's why I use them.

 

Just let me go through my phase, dem00n, I'm getting close to being annoyed too...

[Rocky4]

I wonder how many 80s hair bands were forced to do ballads by their record companies? On that note, I wonder how many of those bands were forced to be hair bands? I imagine a lot of do or die situations came up.

[EVOL!]

...I wonder how many of those bands were forced to be hair bands? I imagine a lot of do or die situations came up.

 

A lot. I thought I remembered George Lynch saying in an interview that Dokken was originally a jeans and t-shirt band, but they got pushed by management to glam it up. I am sure Tesla got leaned on heavily to be more hair metal too. One of my favorite things about Guns and Roses is that they weren't all pretty boy glam. Slash talks about their failed attempt at being glam in his book. Takes up a whole two pages.

[LarryUK]

I think a band 'sells out' when it makes a new album that sounds like the last just to make more money.

But, on the other hand...Wouldn't we all? If I made an album and made millions from it, I'd certainly keep the mix the same.

I'd also say.

The artist I admire the most for keeping original and fresh is David Bowie.

He had the biggest thing with Ziggy (I saw him live) and dropped it at the height of fame. He could have flopped with Aladdin Sane.

I personally don't like a lot of his more modern stuff. But you can't ever call him a sell out.

[SG FAN]

Sell Out. An album by The Who recorded & released in 1967. LOL.

 

Craig

It was an album of commercials. I kinda' thought it was brilliant in a campy sort of way.

[PartsPvt]

At one time (late 60s)I thought playing any cover material was a sell out. Worse..us "avante garde" types felt any score..sheet music was just juke box imitation..only pure creative original expression was valid.

Yeah we'd gig..mostly the same crowd..stoners..other guitar players..band folks. Long solos..thematic sets..intentionally non-danceable adventures...we got the rep as "the musicians" band. We made a tough job more than difficult..but we had our creative justifications.

Did a few years of small clubs..playing for water drinkers..guys trying to steal licks..or their stoned GF's. My heart was in blues..heavy "adventurous rock"..jazz improve..

 

It got so I really only played live for ME..and my income and lifestyle showed it.

 

I wanted to be a professional guitarist. That meant..to me..making a living with my hands..not laying bricks..working in warehouse..but using my hands on the neck.

 

I made my best money in studios. Commercials..union fills..backing travel fronts..studio "cleanups"..all types of music..(no polkas..it was Chicago afterall.) Many popular bands are or were not the musicians in studio.

 

 

I met a few very great musicians working NAMM shows..or rep'ing for manufactuers. I found what "professional" meant.

 

I started "working" my guitar. I did that for years. "Playing" guitar was what I did for me..working is what a professional does. Tommy Tedesco "kid..you don't need to starve to be creative"..Howard Roberts "you might want to enjoy this life.." Merle Lemon a Gibson rep "It's OK to smile while you're playin' kid"

By the time I was mid 20s..it seemed a little late to be discovered (back then)..so making a living was a good idea.

I found a some point that the guys in the suits..or the guys behind the glass..made good $..had real lives..didn't travel 20-25 days a month for years..actually dated girls that had LAST NAMES..

 

So I guess I sold out. I picked my jobs..mostly studio work. Hooked with bands that were assembled to open for young bands getting backed..often we'd play behind amps filling for the "show".

 

Sell out..hmmm..making money working my guitar. No small clubs..no barmitzvahs..no living in a van with three guys freezin waiting for some scum club owner to rip us off..yep..guess I did. No Holiday Inn gigs with old dames rolling a shot glass over to your feet "You and the bongo-ist(never worked with no BONGO !!) come to room 2018..bullcrap.

Nice hotels..sound checks without lugging amps..no more B3s having to carry up stairs..no Kit Kat Club in Marne Michigan helping the azz up..naked junkie strippers move the stage so we can set up..

 

Still I got burned out. It's a tough gig..or at least it was (been out a long time). I put down the guitar for 15-20 years.

 

If you want to make a living as a professional anything..baseball..actor..singer...artist...you need to make a living.

You can create better well fed..with good equipment and the contacts to help make your creative ideas real. Did that for a few years until the folks I had met brought me into the real record business. Yes..ugly..more road work..A&R..scouting bands etc...then studio management.

All of the business required MONEY to continue..required profit to make music..required "working" not playing at working.

The absolute best and MOST creative musicians I met WORKED their talent.

 

Playing so avante garde that only your friends..or a small cadre of followers seemed more like a hobby.

Finding you can make a living at this..then doing the business of maximizing that..maybe selling out...but in this business MONEY HATES YOU. MONEY RUNS AWAY. Very few get rich..very few make enough to have a workingmusicans life. It may not be a long career..lots of good fingers out there..more every day. The new guys will work hard to get what you have..

 

Keep the day job..or be a professional..or be very..very...very...very..very lucky. It's not just talent..it's timing and people you meet..and the sacrifice of your life at times..all the BS..

 

 

 

But then I'm jaded old guy from the wars..

[retrosurfer1959]

I think the term sellout is used by the people who are still waiting tables to ridicule those that have done what they had to in order to make money. To say your keeping your art real even though nobody wants what you are doing is just a sad excuse to justify failure. In a standard job nobody ever turns to their boss and says I refuse to do this budget report I tink it,s against my artistic sensibilities. Become huge star then you can be artistic and do things you believe it's always surprised me how many people turn rabid when a artist does something to make money it's like any other job in some ways. You do what you have to, so you can someday do what you want to.

[bluzhammer]

When I think of sellouts, Robert Cray comes to mind. His first album was a blues standard and then he churned out albums due to contractual obligations. I feel he could have condensed several of these into one solid offering. This is JMO and that usually doesn't amount to much.

[Versatile]

To me 'sell out' means they've sold all the tickets so you can't go to see them because there are no tickets left...unless you turn up on the offchance there are some cancelled tickets available, hopefully not from some tout who wants a large premium for the privilege or one of those nasty people that buy up blocks of tickets to be sold at an inflated price to yours truly.

[duane v]

A lot. I thought I remembered George Lynch saying in an interview that Dokken was originally a jeans and t-shirt band, but they got pushed by management to glam it up.

 

BS right there.... I saw Dokken before they had a management deal, and their attire was straight from Judy's clothing store.

[MojoRedFoot]

Duane hit it with the KISS disco song.

 

Also another perfect example comes to mind. Anyone remember the band Sugar Ray? Their first album had that song "Fly." It was on every station. What I find interesting is that if you listen to that album, it is the only track that sounds the way it does. All the others sound like a bad rip off of Bush's 16 Stone. Did those songs get airplay? Hell no. The next album came out was nothing but rehashed versions of "Fly."

 

As expected, I must come to Metallica's defence. Bob came to them first. He said he saw them on the Justice tour and approached them saying they have not beem able to capture on record what they do live and wanted to produce for them. end of story.

[Jeff-7]

 

Also another perfect example comes to mind. Anyone remember the band Sugar Ray? Their first album had that song "Fly." It was on every station. What I find interesting is that if you listen to that album, it is the only track that sounds the way it does. All the others sound like a bad rip off of Bush's 16 Stone. Did those songs get airplay? Hell no. The next album came out was nothing but rehashed versions of "Fly."

I do remember that, I did like the song RPM on that CD though.