Les Paul Tribute 60 TB ... should I keep it or not?

[Aymara]

Hi everybody,

 

get ready for a long story:

 

After a pause of 20 years, I decided to buy a new electric guitar for home recording.

 

I received my LP Tribute 60 in black and at first sight I was very happy with it ... it sounds nice and the playability was great ... though my fingers got black from the factory strings

 

To get rid of black fingers and string buzz I bought new strings first. In a different forum I read, that GHS Boomers would sound great on this guitar, so I decided to give them a try.

 

After the string change there was less, but still string buzz on the first 4 frets mainly on the wound strings. So I loosened the truss rod for compensation ... 3 times only 1/8 turn a day counter clockwise. After three days I compensated the now worse action by lowering the bridge to get the original nice action back again. A half turn on the high strings and a full turn on the bass strings was needed.

 

If I play the guitar softly it's buzz free now, but as soon as I hit the D and G string a little bit harder, there's still buzzing on the first 4 frets (the D string also, when played unfretted) ... the fourth fret is a bit higher, than it's neighbours and the nut is suboptimal, because these two strings are too low here. The strings form more a strait line than the same radius as the fingerboard in the nut.

 

So I decided to visit an experienced guitar technician. He told me, that the neck still has not enough relief and that this should be adjusted first, before we think about fret work and maybe a bone nut too. He told me to loosen the truss rod a bit more and compensate the action by lowering the bridge again afterwards. He also told me, that I should use higher tension strings ... the Boomers would feel like a light 9 set, though it's a 10-46 typically used on LPs. He expects, that the neck will get enough relief by higher string tension. I don't want to play an 11 gauge set forever, so I ask myself if the Gibson Brite Wires in 10-46 would be an improvement ... they have a hex core, so the tension should be a bit higher, shouldn't it?

 

And now starts the most sad part of this story ... I found out, that further loosening of the truss rod is not possible. It moves smoothly clockwise, but no further counter clockwise turn is possible.

 

So ... should I visit the tech again, to get a new bone nut and the frets leveled? Or should I return the guitar and get my money back? I'm a bit anxious, that even when the tech gets this baby buzz free, that problem will return in summer at higher humidity.

 

A further question: I also have a little intonation problem with the D string, which is 5 cents sharp at the 12th fret, though the saddle is as far back as possible. Before the adjustment it was 10 cents off. Because the string is intonated nicely in the first 7 frets, I ask myself, if it is a bad string? The other string's intonation is ok.

 

I hope, there's a way to get everything fixed, because this guitar is sold out everywhere in Germany and so far I found no different model, I would like to get instead ... except the Gibson LP Silverburst, but nearly 3000 Euros is too much for my wallet.

 

What would you do or recommend?

[Whitmore Willy]

Aymara,

 

First, welcome to the forum!

The following is only my opinion.

 

My first action would be to determine what is the real problem.

You don't say what your actual relief is. If you are at about 10/1000"(.254mm) and at the end of your truss rod adjustment you might run into a problem in the future. If your problem seems to be getting better but you have added a larger amount of relief the truss rod may not be a problem at all.

 

After setting the relief to .010" (hopefully still having ample adjustment available) I would start looking at nut height and fret height.

 

This applies to open string buzz only:

Easiest would be to check nut height first. (As you believe there is a problem there anyway.) If you lay a small accurate straight edge across your first 2 or 3 frets you should be able to use a feeler gauge to measure the fret height in front of the first fret. Add about .010" to .015" to that measurement. If your strings are lower than that at the nut, it could be a problem.

The following are based on making a complete new nut but the measurement information is there:

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Nuts,_saddles/i-1811.html

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Nuts,_saddles/a-nuts.html

 

Next I would be checking frets.

You say the main buzzing is on the first 4 frets. It is possible the frets have raised slightly and need no more than a slight re-seating. It is also possible they need some dressing or leveling.

For this the neck should be as straight as possible. But, as most relief occurs in the middle of the neck you could do a preliminary check.

Even with the strings on you can take a credit card and lay it across any three frets. Check at several points across the fret. Does it "rock" up and down. If it does it may indicate a low or high spot.

If I found any then I would take it to the next level.

I would use a good straight edge to get the neck as straight as possible (no string tension at this point) and do a good fret rocker check. This would tell you what frets need attention and where. After that you need to determine if you would want to do (or have done) that kind of work. Is it worth it to you?

 

There is also this:

http://mysite.verizon.net/jazz.guitar/guitarsetup.htm#Truss%20Rod%20Adjustment

 

All this information and much more can be found in Animalfarm's DIY post at the top of the the Epiphone Lounge.

 

Have fun...Keep rockin' and let us know how things are working out.

Others may have more (and better) suggestions.

 

Willy

[Aymara]

Thanks for your opinion, Willy!

 

My first action would be to determine what is the real problem.

 

I think there are several:

 

1. The neck is very straight with these strings. When I took off the factory strings (before doing any adjustments), the neck showed a clearly visible back bow and the factory strings touched all frets before, when testing the relief. After truss rod adjustment with the GHS strings, the relief is minimal. If I fret at the first fret and the last, there's more relief detectable, as when using the first and 16th fret.

2. Regarding to the technician some frets are slightly higher as their neighbours, the 4th fret being the major problem right now.

3. I'm unshure about the strange intonation of the D string ... it might be just a faulty string or a problem with bridge/nut. A strings change to a different brand might help to find the answer.

 

You don't say what your actual relief is.

 

I would like, but don't have any tools to measure it.

 

you might run into a problem in the future

 

I fear so, yes.

 

If your problem seems to be getting better but you have added a larger amount of relief the truss rod may not be a problem at all.

 

A larger amount of relief can only achieved with higher tension strings. Or might there be a humidity problem? It's currently only 36% ... I have a hard time currently to raise it, because we have the first very cold days here. If I remeber it right, low humidity usually causes higher relief, not lower. But I remember, that I read in any forum, that someone encountered the opposite problem ... lack of relief by low humidity. Might that be possible in my case?

Easiest would be to check nut height first.

 

I think, if the D string would be raised at the nut, I would get rid of it buzzing, when played open, but I think leveling the fourth fret will be the better solution.

 

It is possible the frets have raised slightly and need no more than a slight re-seating. It is also possible they need some dressing or leveling.

 

It seems so ... maybe due to the low humidity? The guitar tech said: "That's the usual China junk, just with better tuners and electronics." Ok, he's an Epiphone hater ;) But when I check the forums, it seems to be not unusual, that some new Epis need fret leveling.

 

Even with the strings on you can take a credit card and lay it across any three frets.

 

Ha, great tip. I don't know, what the tech measured ... I only find a problem with the 4th fret being a very little bit higher than it's neighbours. But I only checked between the D and G strings.

 

So as it seems, I should get the fourth fret leveled by a pro.

 

But first, I think the best would be to try a different string brand in 10-46 gauge. I hope I can get Gibson Brite Wires, because they have a hex core, which should result in slightly higher tension and second, these are Gibson's Les Paul factory string from what I know. Maybe that makes a difference to the very soft feeling GHS Boomers.

 

Any further suggestions?

 

PS: Regarding to Lakewood a back bow can be caused by too low humidity. Ok, gotta search for further things to raise it above 40%.

[amx05462]

to start with you need to find out what is going on with that truss rod. if it wont back off something is wrong

this hapened to me with a epi sg i bought for the grandson. it went forward but wouldnt back off bottom line either the nut or the rod was soft. consequently no neck ajustment.

 

if thats the case id return it.

as to the neck relief. i usually back the truss rod ajustment all the way out and use a stewart mcdonald straight edge the one with the notches so it sits on the wood not the frets and level the neck which only takes a turn or so. then set the bridge height.

 

until you figure whats up with the tuss rod id go no further.

[xxx]

Did you purchase it mail order or brick and mortar? In either case I would send it back. If it's giving you grief at this point the future doesn't bode well. If possible in the future, play the guitar before you bring it home. I have received mail order "duds" as well, and back they go!

[Aymara]

Hi again!

 

to start with you need to find out what is going on with that truss rod. if it wont back off something is wrong

 

Mmh, sorry, but I don't understand, what you mean with back off. I'm not that familiar with truss rods. In the past I only needed to adjust them slightly, maybe 1/8 to 1/4 turn, not more.

 

Isn't it normal, that you reach a point, where no further turn is possible. Wouldn't you unscrew the top of it, if there wouldn't be a "stop point"?

 

Did you purchase it mail order or brick and mortar?

 

Mail order was the only way to go and I got the last one. Usually I hate that and prefer testing a guitar in a shop first, but Gibson did a big mistake regarding Europian distribution. It's even hard to get their strings nowadays in Germany ... there's only one distribution point in Europe left located in the Netherlands. I talked to the nearest Gibson dealer in my region and he told me, that it takes 3 months !!! to order any Gibson guitar, he doesn't have in stock.

 

Unbelievable. They are loosing more and more customers to Fender/Squier and newer brands like the german Düsenberg. Too bad, I'm such an old Les Paul fan ;)

[bigneil]

Hmmm, sounds like you are gonna have to make a difficult decision. Whether it is worth fixing up the action or not?

 

There are some really knowledgeable folks on this forum, so hopefully we can help you determine the best course of action. However we really need as much detailed information as you can provide and, if you are able to take some good quality well lit photographs those would help too.

 

Where did you buy the guitar from?

[Aymara]

Hmmm, sounds like you are gonna have to make a difficult decision.

 

Yes ... over the weekend ... the 30 day return policy ends in the middle of next week.

 

Whether it is worth fixing up the action or not?

 

The first question is: Is the truss rod defect? Is it normal, that the counterclockwise turn stops at some point or should I be able to turn that far, that the screw nut of the rod falls off? Regarding to the Gibson website, the Tribute doesn't have a two way truss rod, but a standard one.

 

if you are able to take some good quality well lit photographs those would help too.

 

Would be no problem, but what would you like to see?

 

Where did you buy the guitar from?

 

Thomann in Germany.

[Aymara]

Hi again,

 

I thought it might be a good idea to try a different string set first before anything else.

 

Because the Gibson strings I wanted to test weren't available in 10-46, I thought the D'darrio EXL110 might be a good choice instead.

 

Well, after oiling the fingerboard and changing the strings ... one problem solved: The intonation problem is history So the Boomers string set had a bad D string.

 

For those being interested ... the Boomers felt better (it was easier to slide with the finger over the strings) and had a more crisp sound, but they sounded more Fender like ... the D'darrios sound more like a Les Paul. But I think my journey in search for my favorite strings isn't over yet ... 20 years ago I used Fender strings, but as I heard, they aren't a good choice any more.

 

Regarding the buzzing the new strings are an improvement too ... now I can't hear it amped, only unplugged.

 

So ... there's hope ;)

[crust]

The owners manuals that I have received with recently purchased Epiphone electric guitars clearly state that string and fret "buzz" is "normal" on Epiphone electric guitars with "low action".

 

[Aymara]

Hi again!

 

fret "buzz" is "normal" on Epiphone electric guitars with "low action".

 

Yes, I read that, but my action is around specs, so buzzing shouldn't be hearable through an amp.

 

But I have further good news ... the buzzing is now nearly gone even unplugged, except when playing hard. But I'm more the light picker guy, so I can live with it.

 

BTW, I leaned the guitar with the headstocks back on a wall and guess what ... the neck developed a very little more relief over night. So far I always stored the guitar in the case. Might it be, that the neck is forced to a back bow in the hard case?

 

But I also have bad news ... now the G strings sometimes buzzes at the bridge. I saw this problem in a Youtube video on an Epiphone ES-335 ... it's this small wire, that holds the adjustment screws in place. Ok, not a real nightmare. A Gotoh or Düsenberg bridge for around 20 Euros will fit without a hassle and fix this.

 

PS: I forgot to mention, that the guitar tech told me, that exchanging the tailpiece to an aluminium type would improve the sound noticably. Might be worth a try.

 

Thanks again for all your suggestions.

[cjlandry]

Glad your problems are almost solved.

 

I've been following this one with interest, as these sorts of issues fascinate me.

 

I've picked up two guitars locally that had fret buzz pretty bad, right out of the box. I liked the display guitar, so they gave me one "just like it" in a box to take home with me. I then had to drive all the way back across town to return them. I know, from now on, to take it out of the box before I leave the shop.

 

 

Interesting that the strings made so much difference.

 

I just bought a Dot, straight from Musician's Friend. Beautiful guitar, absolutely gorgeous (to my eyes), but the intonation was off, and the "action" was high.

 

I was busy, so I didn't bother with it until yesterday morning. I replaced the strings with D'addarios, adjusted the action, and prepared to set intonation. Intonation fell right in place when I set the string height to factory specs. No further adjustment necessary.

 

I'm not sure if the factory strings were an issue at all, because I always restring with either D'addario or Ernie Ball strings anyway. This thread makes me think that the strings might be more of an issue than I may have realized.

[Aymara]

Hi again!

 

Glad your problems are almost solved.

 

Thanks ... so far I'm happy ... even the bridge buzzing stopped ... but I bet it's just a matter of time ;)

 

I'm only a bit anxious, that high humiditiy in summer might cause a back bow ... then I'm lost, because the truss rod is as loose as possible. Thank god highest humidity here is 60%, indoors usually not more than 50%.

 

I've picked up two guitars locally that had fret buzz pretty bad, right out of the box.

 

I think, many Epis need a pro setup incl. fret leveling.

 

Interesting that the strings made so much difference.

 

Oh ... I forgot to mention ... I calipered the GHS strings digitally and guess what: it wasn't a 10-46 set, but a mixed one, 9-46, so now the tension on the neck is a bit higher.

 

But we also should keep in mind, that even identical gauges behave different, some strings are stiffer than others and so are less prone to buzzing. I also found hints in another forum, that it isn't that seldom, that there's a bad string in a set, causing buzzing or intonation problems or just break very fast.

 

BTW ... the Boomers felt much better than the D'daddarios, which feel like sand paper in comparison ... I needed to cream my fingers today. On the other hand they are maybe a bit to bright sounding. If I would play a Strat, they would be my first choice. On the Les Paul the D'daddarios sound better for my taste ... in combination with the 57 pickups of the Tribute very jazzy

 

Intonation fell right in place when I set the string height to factory specs. No further adjustment necessary.

 

Similar to mine. The D'daddarios intonate really fine. Measured by ear, they are spot on ... my Boss TU-12EX says they are 2 cents sharp here and there ... not bad I think, because 100% intonation all over the fingerboard is impossible.

 

I'm not sure if the factory strings were an issue at all, ...

 

Often they are pretty old ... after playing a few minutes, my fingers were black. Don't know, if that were the same Brite Wires Gibson uses on new Les Pauls. In the specs on the website they only mentioned Swedish steel.

 

This thread makes me think that the strings might be more of an issue than I may have realized.

 

Yep ... testing a different string set is often a good first approach to find a solution.

[cjlandry]

 

I think, many Epis need a pro setup incl. fret leveling.

 

I haven't had that problem with an Epi. Problems I had were with a Squier some other brand (it's been a while).

 

Epi's have been close enough that I could fix 'em myself.

 

 

I'm beginning to think that Epi has tighter QC than other brands imported to The States.

[Aymara]

I'm beginning to think that Epi has tighter QC than other brands imported to The States.

 

From what I read on other forums I doubt that. Regarding my Tribute e.g. I found a customer reporting, that he had to return twice to get a flawless one.

[cjlandry]

From what I read on other forums I doubt that. Regarding my Tribute e.g. I found a customer reporting, that he had to return twice to get a flawless one.

 

Looking for a "flawless" economy import?

 

Yeah, I guess that could take a while.

[IndianScout]

wow sorry to hear this

 

I have 2 1960 tributes that were perfect out of the box..

[Aymara]

Looking for a "flawless" economy import?

 

Let me quote from the other forum:

 

Got my 1960 Tribute yesterday and it went back. The fingerboard was coming off, the headstock had a huge chip and a bunch of little things... grrrr... This was the second one and, although it was better than the first, it still just wasn't right.

 

I think, when I wish to get a flawless instrument, I should be able to expect only flaws, I can fix myself ... even, when my instrument was manufactured in China. Warwick for example manufactures entry level basses also in the far east and I never heard of serious flaws.

 

I have 2 1960 tributes that were perfect out of the box..

 

I thought I can expect this, when I order an instrument in the upper price range of that brand. It seems, I was wrong.

 

In my opinion Gibson should take better care about Epiphone QC instead of releasing a 15000$ model ... that would be more helpful to push the brands reputation.

[Gordy01]

It sounds like you could use a bit of TECH help. By that I do not mean taking it to a tech, but learning how to do some of these setup adjustments yourself. You sound like a person who knows a bit about guitars already, so it would not be hard to learn.

 

The first thing I would do is buy a book from stewmac called "Guitar Players Guide To Repairs".

This book has a wealth of information including specs from a variety of guitars, and different setups used by great players.

It also includes detailed setup and repair instructions. I think I paid about 39.00 US for mine.

 

But be warned, you could end up spending A LOT of money on tools. It's almost as addictive as guitars!!

[RaSTuS]

But be warned, you could end up spending A LOT of money on tools. It's almost as addictive as guitars!!

+1

[Whitmore Willy]

BTW, I leaned the guitar with the headstocks back on a wall and guess what ... the neck developed a very little more relief over night. So far I always stored the guitar in the case. Might it be, that the neck is forced to a back bow in the hard case?

YES, absolutely.

Although it is not normally a problem, it does occur. If the end of the guitar at the lower bout rests too low in the case it can cause the neck to rise across the support. This can cause top neck pressure when the case is closed.

 

If the body is in the correct position it can occur. Top neck pressure can also be caused by a "high" neck support.

 

If it has a double neck support and the nearest one to the body is higher than the one nearest the headstock side, it can occur.

 

They can be easy fixes depending on the type of case.

 

Willy

[Aymara]

Hi again!

 

You sound like a person who knows a bit about guitars already, ...

 

I also play oud (fretless arabic lute) and learned a lot about oud building. Research about this topic often ended in guitar forums ;)

 

Thanks for the book tip. Is it only a repair book or also about luthiery? My sweetheart would be very curious, I bet ... she loves working with wood ... I'm more a technician. You can count on it ... she'll buy more tools than I would do ... LOL. She already asked, if it's hard to build an electric guitar ... mmh ... a real custom Les Paul is tempting

 

If it has a double neck support and the nearest one to the body is higher than the one nearest the headstock side, it can occur.

 

This thread is becoming more and more interesting. I thought, that the case might force the neck to a back bow, because the strings pressed marks in the plush of the case's top.

 

BTW ... I managed to raise the humidity to 45% by making the curtains wet I became anxious, that the humidity might ruin not only my new Les Paul, but also my Godin fretless bass and my oud. The 30 years old Yamaha 12-string is build like a tank, so no problem there.

 

I'm curious, if the higher humidity will have a positive effect over time.

[Aymara]

Hi again,

 

I think, it's time for a short update:

 

I'm curious, if the higher humidity will have a positive effect over time.

 

I'm not shure, if it was only the humidity, but fact is, that the neck developed a bit more relief in the meantime ... the relief is nearly perfect now.

 

The open D string buzz is gone, so a nut replacement won't be needed.

 

I think, I'll wait a further week or two and then let the few critical frets be leveled by a tech and the bridge replaced to get rid of the (sometimes) rattling wire over the screws. Then it should be possible to lower the action slightly below Epi specs without buzzing