So a guy walks into a guitar shop

[MrNylon]

If I knew I was going to buy the Gibson anyway, I wouldn't waste my time trying the Gibsum.

[Bender 4 Life]

I seriously doubt that Gibsum would carry a limited lifetime warranty, or the shop owner would have as liberal a return/exchange policy, or that there would be correct fitting parts available to mod said Gibsum (quirks, remember)

I MIGHT test drive it IF I had the time to waste, but if I already had the $ for the Gibson, then why buy a clone?

 

REmember, NO clone is a perfect match to it's "parent" entity.......simple science.

[ChanMan]

I seriously doubt that Gibsum would carry a limited lifetime warranty, or the shop owner would have as liberal a return/exchange policy, or that there would be correct fitting parts available to mod said Gibsum (quirks, remember)

I MIGHT test drive it IF I had the time to waste, but if I already had the $ for the Gibson, then why buy a clone?

 

REmember, NO clone is a perfect match to it's "parent" entity.......simple science.

 

 

It's been established that, for the purposes of this scenario, the only quirk is the logo. In essence the question is 2 exactly identical Les Pauls with a $3k difference in price.

 

Making the REAL question how much would you pay for a label?

[SG FAN]

I would go buy an SG (from a different shop) instead and inform Gibson that this guy is cloning their guitars.

THIS!! Seriously, if the playing field was even, yes I'd give the Givson a spin. The reality is that most of the time clones are inferior to a good Gibson, unless the clone is Japanese.

[Andy R]

It's been established that, for the purposes of this scenario, the only quirk is the logo. In essence the question is 2 exactly identical Les Pauls with a $3k difference in price.

 

Making the REAL question how much would you pay for a label?

 

Yep exactly right. That is what I was getting at but I felt like if I said it that simple not many here would really question why they "think" one guitar might be better than another just by the brand name. I have played some pretty crappy Les Pauls not that they couldn't be fixed or set-up better but for that much money I shouldn't have to put that much time or extra money into it. I have also played some cheaper no name stuff that I was Surprised by. So again this is a think piece more about the merits of a guitar it's self and how much your spending on a brand identity. Look how much they are charging for the Gibson Slash Artist model and the guitar he actually used on AFD wasn't a Gibson! Are you buying an instrument that is really made for you or helps you express your creative ideas come to life? Are you buying a brand name that you hope will retain its value? Look at what Eddie Played back in the day to get his tone. An Ibanez destroyer (Gibson knock off) and a pieced together strat. Just food for thought. I would bet that you could have somebody come into a store and play a les paul and say they love it. I bet you could take an identical guitar (not even a clone) and put a different logo on the guitar they loved the day before and they would pick the identical Gibson not the one they actually played the day before.

 

Let's roll!

[Bender 4 Life]

It's been established that, for the purposes of this scenario, the only quirk is the logo. In essence the question is 2 exactly identical Les Pauls with a $3k difference in price.

 

Making the REAL question how much would you pay for a label?

 

I misunderstood.........

so, if it's simply a scenario of paying for a label, I'd buy neither from the shop but head home and order another $400-$600 Agile Prestige series, either an Al 3000, 3100, 3125, 3200, or 3225 depending on whether I wanted set or neck thru design, solid or chambered mahogany body, and m.o.p. or abalone inlays.......hell, right now Rondo is taking deposits on neck thru Lesters with a buyers options selection built to buyers specs on neck & f/b mat'l, inlays, hardware, p'ups, and finish.....they're offering solid OR chambered for $600.

My Agile AL 3000 HSBF with solid mahogany (2 pc) body, 3/4" Canadian flame maple cap, Ebony f/b, real abalone inlays, 18/1 Grover Super Rotos,Tusq graphite nut, hand finished frets, and American electronics (except p'ups)was $417 including shipping, flawless in fit,finish,and assembly, and has better tone than my Gibson 30th Anniversary Plaintop.

 

but, IF i'm boxed in to the "either/or" scenario, and didn't want to make a scene stomping out of the store for being boxed in(which in all reality i'd not hesitate to do)....i'd definitely test drive the Gibsum, and if it sounded and played as good, and had a written warranty/return policy, then i'd definitely buy it.......my thing is, i'm not plunking down a penny over $1000 for ANY guitar that I can't return if it duds out on me.

 

Prime example, I DID return the 1st Agile they sent me,the day after it was delivered due to the neck pocket being cracked.....the 2nd one was absolutely flawless

[duane v]

I'm a brand loyalist...

 

Gibson

Snap-on

Rawlings USA

Nokona USA

[Lungimsam]

I would go buy an SG (from a different shop) instead and inform Gibson that this guy is cloning their guitars.

 

Ha Ha ha! Nice!

[Lungimsam]

The Gibson would have greater resale value, while you probably couldn't get back what you paid for the clone.

[ChanMan]

I misunderstood.........

so, if it's simply a scenario of paying for a label, I'd buy neither from the shop but head home and order another $400-$600 Agile Prestige series, either an Al 3000, 3100, 3125, 3200, or 3225 depending on whether I wanted set or neck thru design, solid or chambered mahogany body, and m.o.p. or abalone inlays.......hell, right now Rondo is taking deposits on neck thru Lesters with a buyers options selection built to buyers specs on neck & f/b mat'l, inlays, hardware, p'ups, and finish.....they're offering solid OR chambered for $600.

My Agile AL 3000 HSBF with solid mahogany (2 pc) body, 3/4" Canadian flame maple cap, Ebony f/b, real abalone inlays, 18/1 Grover Super Rotos,Tusq graphite nut, hand finished frets, and American electronics (except p'ups)was $417 including shipping, flawless in fit,finish,and assembly, and has better tone than my Gibson 30th Anniversary Plaintop.

 

but, IF i'm boxed in to the "either/or" scenario, and didn't want to make a scene stomping out of the store for being boxed in(which in all reality i'd not hesitate to do)....i'd definitely test drive the Gibsum, and if it sounded and played as good, and had a written warranty/return policy, then i'd definitely buy it.......my thing is, i'm not plunking down a penny over $1000 for ANY guitar that I can't return if it duds out on me.

 

Prime example, I DID return the 1st Agile they sent me,the day after it was delivered due to the neck pocket being cracked.....the 2nd one was absolutely flawless

 

Yeah, we went through the whole "yeah but" thing. I look for sound and playability. You notice such awesome brands as "J.B. Player" and "Hondo" in my stable. Heck, my dulcimer doesn't even have a brand.

 

 

I guess I never understood the whole pay more for the label mentality. I've heard people fighting over Lee vs Wrangler vs Levis. They're all made in the same place, using the same denim on the same machines. They change the tags and the stitching pattern on the pockets....

 

 

 

 

It's playability and tone for me over brand or prestige.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except for Deans. No Deans.... can't stand the flying V headstock... ;)

[Andy R]

Yeah, we went through the whole "yeah but" thing. I look for sound and playability. You notice such awesome brands as "J.B. Player" and "Hondo" in my stable. Heck, my dulcimer doesn't even have a brand.

 

 

I guess I never understood the whole pay more for the label mentality. I've heard people fighting over Lee vs Wrangler vs Levis. They're all made in the same place, using the same denim on the same machines. They change the tags and the stitching pattern on the pockets....

 

 

 

 

It's playability and tone for me over brand or prestige.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except for Deans. No Deans.... can't stand the flying V headstock... ;)

 

Uh are you ragging me because you know I used to work for Dean guitars Pal?:blink:

[ChanMan]

Uh are you ragging me because you know I used to work for Dean guitars Pal?:blink:

 

 

Heck no! Notice the winkie eye thing!

 

Just giving Dean a hard time for those headstocks....

 

Besides, I don't want Dimebag to come haunt me!!

[damian]

This Space is Reserved.......

[retrosurfer1959]

I'd buy the Gibsum and see if he would run Kate Beckinsale or Andrea Corr (the singer from the Corrs) thru the cloning machine also for the couple grand extra!

[SG FAN]

I think I understand your motives for starting this thread now that I read your Ebay thread. I believe you've been drinking too much of the Ed Roman coolaid:(

[Golem]

`

 

 

Because it is my scenario and in this

scenario everything is cloned exactly

to the smallest quark. It just can't

spell very well. :)

`

I think you should not have said "quark"

cuz it got cornfuzed with "quirk". If you

had said "cloned exactly to the smallest

molecule or sub-atomic particle", you'd

have made your point but not triggered

all the cornfuzion that followed.

 

 

 

 

 

`

[Thundergod]

I'd offer him 500 for the gibsun and he would take it.

 

Why?

 

The clonning machine's already paid for.

It costs gibson less than 500 to build a custom and they pay salaries, again, the clonning machine is already paid for.

He'd get easy 500 and I'd get an "a little above mediocre" guitar (is an exact copy of a gibson anyway ) and he knows if I'm happy with it I'll probably bring friends to buy more of them, and in time I'd probably buy more gibsuns.

 

I don't really care about brands, I used to, but now I don't. I would preffer that the guitar said "Clone" or clonee, or dolly or whatever instead of something people might recognize as a try to copy a gibson guitar (or any other guitar).

[Golem]

`

 

I'd buy the Gibsum and see if he would run

Kate Beckinsale or Andrea Corr ... thru the

cloning machine also for the couple grand extra!

`

Yeah ... WTF ... those names are unlikely

to be "damaged" by a slight mispelling !

 

 

 

`

[Golem]

`

 

I'd offer him 500 for the gibsun and he would take it.

 

Why?

 

The clonning machine's already paid for.

`

I agree with your sentiment, and if the machine

were not expensive , and if it needed no costly

maintenance, I'd agree 110%. But it might be

leased, require hefty maintenance and costly

supplies [like maybe a 20lb bag of subatomic

particles per cloned Gibson] ...... or, if it's not

leased, then maybe there's a huge loan to pay

off for the next several years.

 

 

Now where would I ever get ideas about cloning

machines having an expensive leasing cost, and

costly supplies and maintenance ? Why, from my

direct experience with the 'cloning machines' at

my workplace. Our Xerox machines cost a quarter

million each, and we had several. The expensive

supplies and maintenance come with the Xerox

name ! Talk about yer expensive labels ....

 

 

 

 

`

[ChanMan]

`

 

 

Now where would I ever get ideas about cloning

machines having an expensive leasing cost, and

costly supplies and maintenance ? Why, from my

direct experience with the 'cloning machines' at

my workplace. Our Xerox machines cost a quarter

million each, and we had several. The expensive

supplies and maintenance come with the Xerox

name ! Talk about yer expensive labels ....

 

`

 

 

Docutechs are the shiznit, though!

 

 

Don't forget how much those 50 gallon drums of Mojo are...

[milod]

Functionally I was the customer in a real life similar situation in the mid 1970s.

 

Gibson had started to go down the tubes in terms of price/quality, or at least such was the perception in the 1970s period of which I speak. A local guitar store didn't offer Gibsons, and it was miles to go to find a jazz guitar almost anywhere of any brand.

 

But there it was, and had been on the shelf a while: An Ibanez ES-175 that plainly said "Ibanez" on the headstock. I could buy locally, at a fraction of the price of the Gibson, and at the time the Ibanez guitars were played up rather well in the magazines. I bought it. The same guitar wouldn't be very inexpensive nowadays, either. I still own and play what now is known as a "patent infringement" guitar.

 

But I rather question the concept that Gibsons are as overpriced as some obviously suggest here. I've run several businesses and believe me, almost nobody understands the real costs of goods and services unless they've been there. In fact, even the "clone" at the quoted price likely ain't as inexpensive as some might think, even disallowing the price tag on the clone machine... Overhead, tax structures, etc., etc., etc....

 

m

[Artie Owl]

I admit it. I am a consumer whore. Ever since I was a kid my mom could never pass the knock off power rangers or lego as "real".

 

IMO there is a difference in quality between a lygitimate product (say, Lego vs generic building blocks).

 

If it was me in your scenario and I had budgeted 5k for a guitar that obviously means that I can afford the one I originally wanted, so yes I could have bought the cheaper clone but I don't want to because that's not what I wanted. IF you're dropping 5k on a guitar it's not about the cost at that point.

 

The average guitar player however might lust after the original and have to settle for the Gibsum because that's what they can afford/ what works etc.

[ChanMan]

I admit it. I am a consumer whore. Ever since I was a kid my mom could never pass the knock off power rangers or lego as "real".

 

IMO there is a difference in quality between a lygitimate product (say, Lego vs generic building blocks).

 

If it was me in your scenario and I had budgeted 5k for a guitar that obviously means that I can afford the one I originally wanted, so yes I could have bought the cheaper clone but I don't want to because that's not what I wanted. IF you're dropping 5k on a guitar it's not about the cost at that point.

 

The average guitar player however might lust after the original and have to settle for the Gibsum because that's what they can afford/ what works etc.

 

 

Why is it "settling for" when they are the same quality, tone and playability?

 

Not sure I get that concept.

 

 

A perfect example, albeit outside the scope of this thread. Ford Pinto and Mercury Bobcat... they were the exact same vehicle, except for the grill and the Bobcat had a chrome strip around the back window.

 

Pinto carried a Ford sticker price, the Bobcat carried a Mercury sticker price....

 

 

 

Why drop thousands more for the same vehicle? Was the name "Mercury" worth thousands?

 

[jnastynebr]

Aside from guitar cloning machines that can make perfect copies, but are unable to differentiate between the letters O and U, here are my thoughts:

Many companies make carved top, single cut-away, 24.75 inch scale guitars that are obviously inspired by the Gibson Les Paul. These companies (with exception to the Japanese law suit era guitars) usually make a few intentional design alterations to make their instruments stand out from the herd. While Ibanez produces a single cutaway, set neck, gold colored guitar with P90s, they change the body design and other features to make it unique. No one is going to look at it and confuse it with a Les Paul until they examine the headstock logo. Ibanez is not alone in taking a page from the Gibson playbook. Unless its a Telecaster or a V, pretty much every guitar on the market today has been inspired by an earlier model and borrowed some specs from it.

I'm into cool guitars. I take an instrument for what it is and what it can do. I'm not going to scoff at a guitar with 3 single coils, a tremolo, and a double cut-away body because Leo Fender thought of it first. However, if an instrument is exactly identical to a previous design with acceptation to a letter or 2 on the headstock and a smaller price tag, I'm moving on. The design obviously lacks any kind of creativity, so god knows what else it may be lacking.

[Artie Owl]

Why is it "settling for" when they are the same quality, tone and playability?

 

Not sure I get that concept.

 

 

A perfect example, albeit outside the scope of this thread. Ford Pinto and Mercury Bobcat... they were the exact same vehicle, except for the grill and the Bobcat had a chrome strip around the back window.

 

Pinto carried a Ford sticker price, the Bobcat carried a Mercury sticker price....

 

 

 

Why drop thousands more for the same vehicle? Was the name "Mercury" worth thousands?

 

 

See, I was just basing how I would be in that specific scenario. If I had 5 thousand and I had my heart set on that particular guitar I wouldn't want a clone unless it was better, and in this case, it isn't.

 

Now, were I just me I'd probably go the pragmatic route and get the Gibsum because I wouldn't spend 5k on a guitar unless I won the lottery or the likes.

 

I'm just trying to put myself in the situation I guess Chan.