Accepting Tonal Defeat

[Andy R]

like this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSnUwA6c67k&feature=player_embedded

 

 

Yep! Tell that guy that all the tones in his fingers!

 

 

 

[jnastynebr]

Kurt Cobain:

-Painfully average guitar player

-Good ears

-Awesome gear

=Killer tone.

 

Still waiting for someone to explain how your fingers make tone. Your playing style drastically influences your overall sound, but your tone comes from your guitar, your pups, your amp, your speakers, and how you choose to make them sound. Anyone with a good ear can dial in some decent tones with a little trial and error.

Even the cheapest mass produced guitars and amps are better quality today than they ever have been. I can get some decent sounds out of my niece's Squire and solid state practice amp. There are no "magic tone fingers" in the equation, its just knowing how to dial it in.

If telling yourself you have "great tone fingers" gets you through the night, then fine, that's okay by me. I prefer to think that the musical instrument industry has evolved to provide decent gear for consumers on any budget.

[Silenced Fred]

Kurt Cobain:

-Painfully average guitar player

-Good ears

-Awesome gear

=Killer tone.

 

Still waiting for someone to explain how your fingers make tone. Your playing style drastically influences your overall sound, but your tone comes from your guitar, your pups, your amp, your speakers, and how you choose to make them sound. Anyone with a good ear can dial in some decent tones with a little trial and error.

Even the cheapest mass produced guitars and amps are better quality today than they ever have been. I can get some decent sounds out of my niece's Squire and solid state practice amp. There are no "magic tone fingers" in the equation, its just knowing how to dial it in.

If telling yourself you have "great tone fingers" gets you through the night, then fine, that's okay by me. I prefer to think that the musical instrument industry has evolved to provide decent gear for consumers on any budget.

 

First of all, a good ear helps a ton, and he was able to play stuff because of that ear.

 

Second of all, I love Kurt Cobain and Jack White, two of the most argumented subjects of "average" guitarists and to say they have good tone only because of their gear is bullshit. Jack White, what did he play with the White Stripes? An Airline and a Kay guitar, two "low quality" guitars. And what amp did he play through? A Silvertone, a "crappy" amp. What awesome gear did Cobain have? some Fender Mustangs? super high quality man, screw a Les Paul Custom.

 

It's in the fingers man, can you sound like Cobain? White? All of these "painfully average" guitarists? You, being the great player you are, surely can.

 

I'll be waiting on sound clips with baited breath.

[ShredAstaire]

Kurt Cobain:

-Painfully average guitar player

-Good ears

-Awesome gear

=Killer tone.

 

If you're responding to me, you keep ignoring the fact that I concur that gear has something to do with your tone. Like Chan said earlier, no amp, no guitar, no tone. I agree that you can dial in a decent tone with any amp or guitar...but a good player makes it much better with their picking and fretting technique(i.e. their fingers).

 

For the record, i don't agree that Kurt had killer tone. Maybe on their albums (production - to riversides point) but not live. But to each their own.

 

HEARING good tone is in the ears, yes. But if you ain't got fingers (or toes in some cases), you can't create any tone for the ears to hear.

 

Again, give your brother/sister/mom/dad/grandma/grampa a killer set up...you dial in the settings and see how good her tone sounds when they play. You need skill/technique to make the equipment sound great.

 

The best combo is a great player and great equipment...i think most of us would agree...but great gear is NOT a prerequisite to getting a good tone in my opinion.

[Andy R]

If you're responding to me, you keep ignoring the fact that I concur that gear has something to do with your tone. Like Chan said earlier, no amp, no guitar, no tone. I agree that you can dial in a decent tone with any amp or guitar...but a good player makes it much better with their picking and fretting technique(i.e. their fingers).

 

For the record, i don't agree that Kurt had killer tone. Maybe on their albums (production - to riversides point) but not live. But to each their own.

 

HEARING good tone is in the ears, yes. But if you ain't got fingers (or toes in some cases), you can't create any tone for the ears to hear.

 

Again, give your brother/sister/mom/dad/grandma/grampa a killer set up...you dial in the settings and see how good her tone sounds when they play. You need skill/technique to make the equipment sound great.

 

The best combo is a great player and great equipment...i think most of us would agree...but great gear is NOT a prerequisite to getting a good tone in my opinion.

 

Ok let's reset here. Going back to ChanMan's point ... No Guitar, No Strings, No Amp, No Tone. ( Air Guitar and Amp )! No fingers or toes or some appendage, wind, or apparatus to physically push a string down to a fret ( or a fret board for the non fretted instrumentalist out there) and a physical means to vibrate the strings then there is no way to Physically produce tone. Agreed? Physically impossible! Until some form of mental telepathy is figured out.

 

So that being said let's get back to what is required to make "An Electric guitar tone"

* Some form of guitar with Strings (or at least 1) - Any make or model. From a 50 dollar harmony to a $5,000.00 Les Paul

* Some form of connection cable

* Some form of amplifier

* Some form of Speaker ( We'll assume we have the cable connected to the speaker )

* Electricity

* A physical Body ( Preferably with fingers but as we saw not absolutely necessary)

* A brain that is cognizant enough and muscle control to make whatever appendage you are using move enough to push a string to a fret and make the string vibrate

With these basic things you can create an electric guitar tone! Will it be a great tone? That is subjective to the player and the listener. One mans "Tone of the Gods" could be another mans "Tone of Pooh" The point is we are purely talking about only producing a sonically audible sound at this point.

 

Now we get to the point of what we do with the tones we can produce given the parameters above. Let's say using the hand granny the Awesome dialed in tone we have scenario above. Say we teach granny how to adequately pluck an open A string and you record it. Then you pluck an A with all your skill. The overall tone is going to be about the same. Yo may pluck it a little harder or softer but that is your brain and ears telling your finger to do that.

 

So know we get into skill, technique, inner musical ear, and what you hear with your ears. Let's go back to Eddie Van Halen so let's say Eddie Doesn't know how to tune a guitar, or adjust any knobs on the amplifier or guitar but still has all the skill, technique and magic fingers. So he has a guitar that is completely out of tune, he has the bass turned all the way up on the amp, the mid and treble all the way down, the gain set at 2, and the volume at 5 and he has the guitar set about halfway on volume, using the neck pick-up and the tone control ( if he had one ) rolled all the way back. Then he kicks into Runnin' with the Devil. I'm sorry but no matter how talented his fingers are his tone and playing are gonna sound like Shite!!!

 

Now let's say Ed loses his fingers but isn't tone deaf anymore and knows when something is in tune. He also has all of his musical skills etc... Now let's say that they have developed robotic hands that Eddie can connect to a guitar and use a controller to tell them exactly how to play through a computer. So Eddie can use his ears to create the guitar tone and program the electronically to play what he is hearing in his head. Eddie records this and releases it will it sound like eddie and his tone. Yep!!!! Will it sound exactly like what Eddie has done in the past? Probably not! Will the tone be good? I believe it would pretty much sound like what Eddie would do. I believe this is pretty much similar to how Jason Becker is working now. ( without the robot hands)

 

Beethoven could compose with out an instrument and without being able to hear. Mozart could write beautiful arrangements for multiple instruments purely on paper and what he heard in his mind.

 

You could have a piano with beautiful tone and use a midi controller to make the hammers hit the strings.

 

 

So again I say the Fingers are only the conduit of the musical mind. They don't work on their own!

 

That's all I got to say about that...... For now!

[ShredAstaire]

 

So again I say the Fingers are only the conduit of the musical mind. They don't work on their own!

 

Andy, I agree with you, but i also think that part is obvious and a given when speaking about the fingers. The equipment and the fingers are the physical part of tone. (i.e. actually CREATING the sound - your brain don't play your guitar for you)

 

The brain hits home runs for baseball players too right? Just teasing of course!!

[Andy R]

Andy, I agree with you, but i also think that part is obvious and a given when speaking about the fingers. The equipment and the fingers are the physical part of tone. (i.e. actually CREATING the sound)

 

Yes I realize I am stating what I presume to be the obvious. I'm not sure how obvious it is to some... No offense to anyone in particular.

 

 

 

[jnastynebr]

First of all, a good ear helps a ton, and he was able to play stuff because of that ear.

 

Second of all, I love Kurt Cobain and Jack White, two of the most argumented subjects of "average" guitarists and to say they have good tone only because of their gear is bullshit. Jack White, what did he play with the White Stripes? An Airline and a Kay guitar, two "low quality" guitars. And what amp did he play through? A Silvertone, a "crappy" amp. What awesome gear did Cobain have? some Fender Mustangs? super high quality man, screw a Les Paul Custom.

 

It's in the fingers man, can you sound like Cobain? White? All of these "painfully average" guitarists? You, being the great player you are, surely can.

 

I'll be waiting on sound clips with baited breath.

Yes kid,

I would call Cobain's 69 Fender Mustang, other assorted custom Fender guitars, Mesa Boogie, Marshall, and 60s twin reverb amps some pretty KILLER gear. As far as Jack White, you can make any guitar sound good in a studio. I have yet to hear anything the White Stripes have done live that I would call "sweet live guitar tone", but that crunchy canned sound is kind of his trademark, anyway.

Before you started ranting about magic tone fingers again, you may notice that I mentioned in my previous post that you can get some good sounds out of cheap guitars and amps.

I have also mentioned all along that a player's technique has a huge impact on his/her sound. A player's sound is largely the product of their unique techniques. A player's tone is largely the product of their choice of tools and how he/she chooses to employ these tools.

You can have the best gear in world, but if you dont know how to get it to sound good, you wont sound that great either. Knowing how to dial in great tone and how to get that to sound good with 3 other guys playing other instruments in the studio or on stage has very little to do with your fingers.

Sorry I made you mad. Maybe we can settle this Monday during recess.

[Andy R]

Andy, I agree with you, but i also think that part is obvious and a given when speaking about the fingers. The equipment and the fingers are the physical part of tone. (i.e. actually CREATING the sound - your brain don't play your guitar for you)

 

The brain hits home runs for baseball players too right? Just teasing of course!!

 

Well you would have a better chance of your brain playing guitar for you in some way than your fingers playing guitar for you with no brain! And baselball player doesn't create tone so they are screwed.

 

 

 

[jnastynebr]

If you're responding to me, you keep ignoring the fact that I concur that gear has something to do with your tone. Like Chan said earlier, no amp, no guitar, no tone. I agree that you can dial in a decent tone with any amp or guitar...but a good player makes it much better with their picking and fretting technique(i.e. their fingers).

 

For the record, i don't agree that Kurt had killer tone. Maybe on their albums (production - to riversides point) but not live. But to each their own.

 

HEARING good tone is in the ears, yes. But if you ain't got fingers (or toes in some cases), you can't create any tone for the ears to hear.

 

Again, give your brother/sister/mom/dad/grandma/grampa a killer set up...you dial in the settings and see how good her tone sounds when they play. You need skill/technique to make the equipment sound great.

 

The best combo is a great player and great equipment...i think most of us would agree...but great gear is NOT a prerequisite to getting a good tone in my opinion.

+1 on most points. Cobain's tone was more about Nirvana's sound as a whole, rather than great guitar tone.

[ShredAstaire]

Well you would have a better chance of your brain playing guitar for you in some way than your fingers playing guitar for you with no brain!

 

Have you met some guitar players? hahaha

[Andy R]

Have you met some guitar players? hahaha

 

 

A valid point and noted!

 

 

 

[Silenced Fred]

Yes kid,

I would call Cobain's 69 Fender Mustang, other assorted custom Fender guitars, Mesa Boogie, Marshall, and 60s twin reverb amps some pretty KILLER gear. As far as Jack White, you can make any guitar sound good in a studio. I have yet to hear anything the White Stripes have done live that I would call "sweet live guitar tone", but that crunchy canned sound is kind of his trademark, anyway.

Before you started ranting about magic tone fingers again, you may notice that I mentioned in my previous post that you can get some good sounds out of cheap guitars and amps.

I have also mentioned all along that a player's technique has a huge impact on his/her sound. A player's sound is largely the product of their unique techniques. A player's tone is largely the product of their choice of tools and how he/she chooses to employ these tools.

You can have the best gear in world, but if you dont know how to get it to sound good, you wont sound that great either. Knowing how to dial in great tone and how to get that to sound good with 3 other guys playing other instruments in the studio or on stage has very little to do with your fingers.

Sorry I made you mad. Maybe we can settle this Monday during recess.

 

So its not just the gear hmmmmm...

 

All I'm saying is ask 100 guitar players, I would be surprised if 3 said that a Mustang would be the king of tone.

 

This is where we disagree, I love Jack White's tone live.

 

It's ok, I don't need a recess

[Andy R]

So its not just the gear hmmmmm...

 

All I'm saying is ask 100 guitar players, I would be surprised if 3 said that a Mustang would be the king of tone.

 

This is where we disagree, I love Jack White's tone live.

 

It's ok, I don't need a recess

 

 

Exactly one of my points! Fred Tone is subjective. You like Jack Whites live tones others don't. Concerning the Fender Mustang if you asked 100 50's and 60's Players and their style of music the ratio might be quite a bit higher. Same difference you don't care for them but that doesn't mean that they are not great for a certain tone...

 

 

 

[milod]

I really find it interesting that so much comment seems, to me, to somewhat dance around the realities of sound.

 

Let's say you hear Guitarist A in an outdoor venue; then there's a second show that evening in a low-ceiling saloon. I'll maintain that if you think you're hearing the same tone, either you were far too close to an amp or PA, or your brain is filling in gaps brought by the way sound does its thing, especially inside a building.

 

It's kinda the way our brains fill in gaps for our eyes and why a camera so often will yield something that looks far different from what we remember seeing, especially when it comes to color.

 

All the items mentioned, from fingers to guitar to amps, will play a role in perceived tone. But so will the ear of the listener and the space or lack of space between the listener and the source of sound.

 

What we perceive that we hear may or may not reflect the source of sound. Our brains also will bring variation into what we remember. Worse, even the finest recording and "hi fidelity" listening equipment will not be exactly what was produced and what "you" heard at a given spot in a given crowd in a given venue for a musical performance.

 

Yeah, there are ways to get a similar sound. But identical? I don't think the same player with the same equipment really sounds exactly the same in two different venues.

 

But on the bright side, it's also obvious to me from listening to BB using various guitars, amps and PA systems and with different sorts of recording equipment, he sounded like BB regardless.

 

I'll add that playing both acoustic and electric, the sound of my guitar pickin' was a lot different going across an AM radio transmitter with 1930s tube and mike technology than a decade later with solid state "up to date" stuff. That includes using the same guitar and same brand/type of strings.

 

m

[Andy R]

I really find it interesting that so much comment seems, to me, to somewhat dance around the realities of sound.

 

Let's say you hear Guitarist A in an outdoor venue; then there's a second show that evening in a low-ceiling saloon. I'll maintain that if you think you're hearing the same tone, either you were far too close to an amp or PA, or your brain is filling in gaps brought by the way sound does its thing, especially inside a building.

 

It's kinda the way our brains fill in gaps for our eyes and why a camera so often will yield something that looks far different from what we remember seeing, especially when it comes to color.

 

All the items mentioned, from fingers to guitar to amps, will play a role in perceived tone. But so will the ear of the listener and the space or lack of space between the listener and the source of sound.

 

What we perceive that we hear may or may not reflect the source of sound. Our brains also will bring variation into what we remember. Worse, even the finest recording and "hi fidelity" listening equipment will not be exactly what was produced and what "you" heard at a given spot in a given crowd in a given venue for a musical performance.

 

Yeah, there are ways to get a similar sound. But identical? I don't think the same player with the same equipment really sounds exactly the same in two different venues.

 

But on the bright side, it's also obvious to me from listening to BB using various guitars, amps and PA systems and with different sorts of recording equipment, he sounded like BB regardless.

 

I'll add that playing both acoustic and electric, the sound of my guitar pickin' was a lot different going across an AM radio transmitter with 1930s tube and mike technology than a decade later with solid state "up to date" stuff. That includes using the same guitar and same brand/type of strings.

 

m

 

Precisely!!!!!!!! +1 for Milod the Sage of wisdom!

[69 Son]

I've chased a certain tones that has always eluded me: Jimi's tones on Electric Ladyland...

 

I've never seen anyone cop those tones from that album anywhere. I bought several strats, changed, the pickups, fender amps, marshall amps. I can get the feeling but the wah phrasing and the intensity still eludes.

 

I started really enjoying playing when I stopped seeking a certain tone and focused on playing better. Now I'm totally content with the tone of a Gibson straight into a Mesa Boogie. That's my tone...

 

I like Cobain and Jack White for their energy and phrasing, but their tone is horrible, lol.

[Versatile]

Some of it comes down to confidence...as skill develops, the player is happy to create their own personal tone with their favourite equipment

The Who back then had a combination of virtuoso guitar/bass/drums

The bass would have enhanced the tone of Pete's chords and lead work

It is continually fascinating to learn what equipment is/was used on classic recordings and live performances......

 

V....(Jumping and Strumming in a Windmill Style)

 

 

[Sinner 13]

Some of it comes down to confidence...as skill develops, the player is happy to create their own personal tone with their favourite equipment

The Who back then had a combination of virtuoso guitar/bass/drums

The bass would have enhanced the tone of Pete's chords and lead work

It is continually fascinating to learn what equipment is/was used on classic recordings and live performances......

 

V....(Jumping and Strumming in a Windmill Style)

 

 

 

I think this wins as the most sensible post in this thread.

I agree, who you are playing with, post prod, and the gear in the studio itself contributes to player tone, as much as said players gear and style, the variables involved can create endless tonal options.

 

[Thundergod]

Instead of spending lots on expensive gear pay him to play for you for a minute or two.

 

Tone resides 90% in your fingers and soul. Unless you buy his fingers and soul you won't really sound like him.

[jnastynebr]

 

I think this wins as the most sensible post in this thread.

I agree, who you are playing with, post prod, and the gear in the studio itself contributes to player tone, as much as said players gear and style, the variables involved can create endless tonal options.

You nailed it. Endless tonal options, even from a simple rig. That's why you cant nail Page's tone on V.

[tartanbeastie]

Yes kid,

I would call Cobain's 69 Fender Mustang, other assorted custom Fender guitars, Mesa Boogie, Marshall, and 60s twin reverb amps some pretty KILLER gear. As far as Jack White, you can make any guitar sound good in a studio. I have yet to hear anything the White Stripes have done live that I would call "sweet live guitar tone", but that crunchy canned sound is kind of his trademark, anyway.

Before you started ranting about magic tone fingers again, you may notice that I mentioned in my previous post that you can get some good sounds out of cheap guitars and amps.

I have also mentioned all along that a player's technique has a huge impact on his/her sound. A player's sound is largely the product of their unique techniques. A player's tone is largely the product of their choice of tools and how he/she chooses to employ these tools.

You can have the best gear in world, but if you dont know how to get it to sound good, you wont sound that great either. Knowing how to dial in great tone and how to get that to sound good with 3 other guys playing other instruments in the studio or on stage has very little to do with your fingers.

Sorry I made you mad. Maybe we can settle this Monday during recess.

 

 

 

 

Yup another possibility.. sound and tone are different. tone produced by equipment, the sound produced by the person..? possibly?

[Mr. Natural]

Instead of spending lots on expensive gear pay him to play for you for a minute or two.

 

Tone resides 90% in your fingers and soul. Unless you buy his fingers and soul you won't really sound like him.

 

I agree, T-god. And, thanks for posting (otherwise, I would have had to reply saying I agree with dem00n).

 

I think BigKahune, also, nailed another key element of the tone quest; crank up the volume.

[Californiaman]

After reading through this thread I've to say I'm more inclined to go along with Milod.

Tone is so subjective.

So much goes into creating a specific tone. Yes, the human element plays a factor but so too the elements.

By this I mean the pickup wiring, the presence of certain base metals in the wiring, even the amount of windings for the pickups. Also the type of woods used for the guitar, the type of amp, wiring in the transformers, tube efficiency, and speakers and cabinets.

How was the amplifier micd during recording? What sort of post production effects were used?

Was it digital or was it analog? Who was the sound engineer?

It goes on and on ad nauseam.

I can go on and on about it but I won't.

[jnastynebr]

Yup another possibility.. sound and tone are different. tone produced by equipment, the sound produced by the person..? possibly?

Thank you. This is the point I have been trying to make. People just get so defensive that they miss the main point. I think of sound like, "Band X has a good sound." This is where style and technique of each member comes into play. Tone is your equipment and how you dial it. There are two tone controls on your Les Paul/SG/ES/yada yada.... Turn these both down, and it doesn't matter what you do with your fingers, that is how its going to be. There are endless variables in tone, that's why all your favorite musicians sound different. How about licks? You can borrow licks from your favorite guitarists, just like they took licks from theirs, but if you know how to properly fret and pluck a note, how many variables are there?

I just don't see how fingers have much of an impact on sound or tone. We all just watched a guy play the guitar with his feet, and it sounded pretty good. Sorry, if a guy can do it with his toes, than I don't see how it can all be in the fingers.