A happy ending.

[davidl]

I was reading the local newspaper this morning and came across a wonderful story.

There was this fellow in the Ottawa, Canada area who around 20 years ago, spent his entire paycheque to buy a 1974 Strat. He just had to have it, To heck with rent, food etc. He loved that guitar and gigged with it regularly. No other could touch it in his opinion.

Well in 1994, some a$$hole broke into the place where they would practice and stole everything. A shame to lose everything else but the Strat was a real heartbreaker.

Fast forward to very recently.

Word had gotten around the music community and finally came to the new owner who had bought it at a legitimate shop 5 years ago. Since stolen, it had passed through a number of owners hands.

The new owner who also loved that guitar and called it his baby did the right thing. He tracked down the original owner and handed it back to him.

If you believe in karma, this dude has good things coming his way. Good human nature is not dead.

This will leave a smile on my face all day.

Dave

[Searcy]

Ain't that a man?

[S t e v e]

yea a happy story, BUT a real man wouldn't of given it back...jus sayin

[davidl]

Like poking the bear do ya Steve?

A real man would have beat the crap out of ya for not returning it.

[S t e v e]

Like poking the bear do ya Steve?

A real man would have beat the crap out of ya for not returning it.

 

 

have a plus up for that

[MrNylon]

Like poking the bear do ya Steve?

A real man would have beat the crap out of ya for not returning it.

 

You Betcha'!

[Big Bill]

One question that begs to be asked, what the hell is a "paycheque"?

[neilpanda]

One question that begs to be asked, what the hell is a "paycheque"?

thats how we spell it in Canada

[S t e v e]

thats how we spell it in Canada

 

we don't get a "paycheque" over here in england, the money goes straight into our bank accounts...and there was me thinking that the western world were up to date with us

[S t e v e]

I was reading the local newspaper this morning and came across a wonderful story.

There was this fellow in the Ottawa, Canada area who around 20 years ago, spent his entire paycheque to buy a 1974 Strat. He just had to have it, To heck with rent, food etc. He loved that guitar and gigged with it regularly. No other could touch it in his opinion.

Well in 1994, some a$$hole broke into the place where they would practice and stole everything. A shame to lose everything else but the Strat was a real heartbreaker.

Fast forward to very recently.

Word had gotten around the music community and finally came to the new owner who had bought it at a legitimate shop 5 years ago. Since stolen, it had passed through a number of owners hands.

The new owner who also loved that guitar and called it his baby did the right thing. He tracked down the original owner and handed it back to him.

If you believe in karma, this dude has good things coming his way. Good human nature is not dead.

This will leave a smile on my face all day.

Dave

 

sorry, but i'm with gary moore's way of thinking...

[fl00dsm0k3]

i thought you were going to say that vintage lp was reaturned

[Guest Farnsbarns Wunterslausche]

we don't get a "paycheque" over here in england, the money goes straight into our bank accounts...and there was me thinking that the western world were up to date with us

 

If that were the case they'd know how to spell cheque. If your going to invent words and change spelling at least have the conviction to call it American.

 

Fire extinguisher: check

Flame proof suit: check

[retrosurfer1959]

I always struggle with the concept of who owns a guitar that's been stolen. Guitars, fine art and many other things that people buy used have sometimes been stolen and if you buy it legally without knowing it was stolen who has the real ownership claim. If you didn't buy it for half price or something knowing it was stolen why should you have any responsibility to the original owner. I've seen this debated for years on many items but honestly just because it was stolen years before by someone else I don't get how your "doing the right thing" or why karma would be enhanced by giving somebody your property just because they say they used to own it.

 

I actually had a similar thing happen once with a older Marshall guitar amp. I was at a bar playing music and some guy came up to me and said it was his amp that had been stolen years before from a bar when he was gigging I asked him if he had marked it or had the serial number on a police report or how he thought he could identify it and he just said he knew it was his amp by looking at it (which. I agree I could recognize many of my older amps and guitars just by looking also). He said it wasn't marked and that he had never reported it stolen or made a preport and he didn't have a serial number or anything else he just recognized it. I had owned the amp for about two years at the time and my receipt from purchasing it was in a envelope stapled to the inside of the amp like I usually do.

 

He asked me if I would "Do the right thing and return it to him as he felt he still owned it". I refused I actually figured the guy was full of **** and lying but even if he wasn't why should I lose money from something I bought legally? He started whining and said it had great sentimental value to him etc. etc. And gave me a whole sob story about how he had been looking for it for years. I actually couldn't decide if he was telling the truth or not so I said tell you what if your sentimentally attached to it I'm really not it's just a gigging amp for me, so even though you don't have any proof I'll sell it to you for exactly what I paid for it even though it probably was worth a few hundred more by then. He whined and moaned about how that wasn't fair and I should just give it back since it was his. I refused again saying that I didn't really believe his story but even if it was true I wasn't the one that had stolen it.

 

He said he was gonna call the cops or sue me I just said thats fine go ahead call the cops we will be here all night playing so tell them I'll be happy to show them my receipt. He wandered off and I never saw him again and no cops showed up. I always wondered though what I would do if somebody could prove something I purchased had been stolen from them at some earlier date I still think it would go down the same way though two wrongs don't make a right and just because somebody had stolen it from them before why should I lose money or my property that was legally purchased. If it was something really sentimental I would probably always sell it to them at my cost but I can't understand going any further than that.

[rocketman]

Read this for some insight. Bottom line is that laws vary on this issue.

[Andy R]

I always struggle with the concept of who owns a guitar that's been stolen. Guitars, fine art and many other things that people buy used have sometimes been stolen and if you buy it legally without knowing it was stolen who has the real ownership claim. If you didn't buy it for half price or something knowing it was stolen why should you have any responsibility to the original owner. I've seen this debated for years on many items but honestly just because it was stolen years before by someone else I don't get how your "doing the right thing" or why karma would be enhanced by giving somebody your property just because they say they used to own it.

 

I actually had a similar thing happen once with a older Marshall guitar amp. I was at a bar playing music and some guy came up to me and said it was his amp that had been stolen years before from a bar when he was gigging I asked him if he had marked it or had the serial number on a police report or how he thought he could identify it and he just said he knew it was his amp by looking at it (which. I agree I could recognize many of my older amps and guitars just by site also). He said it wasn't marked and that he had never reported it stolen or made a report and he didn't have a serial number or anything else he just recognized it. I had owned the amp for about two years at the time and my receipt from purchasing it was in a envelope stapled to the inside of the amp like I usually do.

 

He asked me if I would "Do the right thing and return it to him as he felt he still owned it". I refused I actually figured the guy was full of **** and lying but even if he wasn't why should I lose money from something I bought legally? He started whining and said it had great sentimental value to him etc. etc. And gave me a whole sob story about how he had been looking for it for years. I actually couldn't decide if he was telling the truth or not so I said tell you what if your sentimentally attached to it I'm really not it's just a gigging amp for me, so even though you don't have any proof I'll sell it to you for exactly what I paid for it even though it probably was worth a few hundred more by then. He whined and moaned about how that wasn't fair and I should just give it back since it was his. I refused again saying that I didn't really believe his story but even if it was true I wasn't the one that had stolen it.

 

He said he was gonna call the cops or sue me I just said thats fine go ahead call the cops we will be here all night playing so tell them I'll be happy to show them my receipt. He wandered off and I never saw him again and no cops showed up. I always wondered though what I would do if somebody could prove something I purchased had been stolen from them at some earlier date I still think it would go down the same way though two wrongs don't make a right and just because somebody had stolen it from them before why should I lose many or property that was legally purchased. If it was something really sentimental I would probably always sell it to them at my cost but I can't understand going further than that.

 

Wow you humored the guy a lot more than I would have. I would have needed to see some proof to at least entertain the conversation. I agree with you. If you purchase something through legitimate process and procedures then you as the current owner shouldn't get screwed.

 

I feel for the people that had stuff stolen and I have had a guitar or two ripped off through the years. As an owner of something you care about I feel that you have the responsibility to protect it, insure it, etc... I realize thieves can get something they want regardless but musical equipment is more of an opportunist type of item to be stolen.

 

So if you really love that amp or guitar don't leave it somewhere that it could easily be ripped off. I never left/leave my gear ( that I really cared about) anywhere... gigs, rehearsal spots, cars, friends houses etc... Pain in the A$ at times but I would lug it all back and forth. Again, some people get stuff stolen despite good efforts to prevent it... My theory is the more it was in my sight the less chance of getting ripped because where I am a gun is usually not far from reach.

 

If I didn't have a large investment in something and It didn't mean that much to me I might take a small hit for a good deed and good karma. If there was good proof...

 

If it were something I was invested in I would offer to sell it back like you did at my cost and or at least offer not to sell it to anyone else and try to work out an equitable and fair exchange, maybe trade, payment over time etc... If that wasn't good enough I guess I would go to court over it....

 

Like I said an owner has some responsibility to keep there stuff safe and a lot of times ( not always ) people don't do a very good job at making sure their sentimental prized possessions are protected as well as they should be. Not saying they deserve it just making a point....

 

 

Andy

[retrosurfer1959]

Yep the laws are weird on trafficking in stolen property but the original owner has to be able to have full proof that they owned something and most laws state that to be prosecuted you most either knowingly or with a reasonable suspicion purchase stolen property to be charged so if you buy a amp from the back of a parked car in a alley for 20% of it's value or you buy a Rolex watch from some guy in a trench coat your gonna have the property confiscated and most likely be charged with possession and trafficking. If you buy the same amp as a used amp at a fair price from a reputable music store your probably fine.

 

The laws have gotten weird though with Ebay and craigslist especially on small easily stolen items like phone's, gun's and camera's and new laws are being passed all the time.

 

The art stolen during the World Wars is a whole different story and that's why many of these paintings remain unseen in private vaults and will never be seen again in public the world was so offended by Germanys actions in striping Europe's art that common sense was not used in many of the laws, especially New York's laws.

 

That's why I would never post a picture online of an original 58-59 Gibson guitar or any other piece of valuable art, just to many wacko's that might try to say it was there stolen property.

[bonzoboy]

I tip my hat to the guy who had empathy and honesty enough to return the guitar to the rightful owner.I'm sure that anyone who had experienced the frustration and huge sense of invasion and loss having anything especially gear

stolen would feel the same way.To knowingly have something stolen in your possession especially when you know who the true owner is puts you down on the same level as the jerk who stole it-it's as simple as that and any court in the land would see it the same way.

[Andy R]

I tip my hat to the guy who had empathy and honesty enough to return the guitar to the rightful owner.I'm sure that anyone who had experienced the frustration and huge sense of invasion and loss having anything especially gear

stolen would feel the same way.To knowingly have something stolen in your possession especially when you know who the true owner is puts you down on the same level as the jerk who stole it-it's as simple as that and any court in the land would see it the same way.

 

I gave you a plus since someone gave you a negative. I agree with what you're saying but would have to differentiate between buying something you know is stolen and finding out that what you purchased through legitimate avenues is a stolen item.

 

Like retro said.... If I buy a 69 Les Paul custom for $200 from some guy I don't know out of the back of a Van then I should know better and realize that there is a good chance the guitar is stolen.

 

If I bought that same guitar for $5,000 ( or whatever ) Through a music store or Ebay etc... then it is unlikely I am knowingly/intentionally buying a stolen guitar. Now if I am out playing somewhere and someone says "Hey that's my guitar" Should I have to lose $5,000 and just give it back? Now you are just transferring the theft from one person to another.

 

I don't think at that point it makes you a bad person for not wanting to just give it back... I think the person that originally purchased it also had the responsibility to make sure that it was reasonably secured/protected and or insured. Again I know things get stolen despite best efforts to prevent it and it is not my intent to say that it was the persons fault it was stolen but people can be careless.

 

I feel like if it is discovered and proven then you as the current owner should provide the information about who you purchased it from and let the previous owner pursue how that person came to own it. I also believe that if the person who had it stolen or the person you bought it from is willing to work out an equitable exchange then you should give it back. If this can't be arranged I don't feel like the person who purchased it through legitimate means should end up holding the bag and getting screwed or have to go through the legal crap to get their money back.

 

Like I said before how do I know you didn't leave the guitar ( or whatever item) at someones house for 2 years and someone stole it from him? How do I know you didn't owe some guy money and you gave it to them to keep from getting your *** kicked and then reported it stolen??? What if your best friend stole it??? What if you only paid $200.00 for it and I paid $5000.00? What if you bought it used just like I did and it was stolen when you bought it?????

 

Like I said if I were in the position that I could write off $5,000.00 ( or whatever amount ) and do something nice for a fellow human being I would... but if I can't then I shouldn't be made out as a bad guy for not doing it... Like i said I would try to work out whatever I could with the person who had it stolen as well as the person I purchased it from within reason.

 

My Humble Opinion...

 

Andy

[S t e v e]

i appreciate everyones opinion on the matter, some would give the guitar back...I for one would not, it is my property now and i have no connection with the guy it was stolen from...it's in the past and is my rightful property now

[davidl]

I certainly didn't mean this thread to turn into an ethical discussion but can understand why it has.

I can't say for sure that I would give it back either. I tend to think I might depending on the circumstances. If the original owner was an arrogant jerk, problem solved.

[bonzoboy]

The basic gist of the matter is that the original and rightful owner of the guitar had it stolen and no matter how many times it changes hands it is still his property that was obtained by illegal means.Sure the most recent purchaser even if he bought in good faith would be out money but the fact still stands that in the first place it was obtained illegally.The most recent owner still has the legal means to get his money returned by suing the person who stole in the first place and this can be easily done by the police going through the chain of ownership.

A buddy of mine had a Partscaster that he had made stolen and about 3 years later found it on the wall of a local music store.When he proved conclusively that it was his guitar the store was legally obligated to give the guitar back as it was obtained illegally from the original owner despite the fact that they had allowed the person who brought it in several hundred dollars on a trade.The old addage buyer beware also goes for stolen property too and the law will always side with the rightful original owner.So it's not really a question of ethics it is also the law.