charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Hey all... I (recently) was involved in a "Jam" that involved various area musicians. We do this, now and again, as often as is possible, given the distances, and time constraints, involved. One thing (for me, anyway) that has always been an issue, is "Dynamics!" I love to use them, a lot of others, don't seem to feel the need. I like to "sing" songs, rather than scream them. And, I'm not talking about the kind of "hard rock" style, that has those nondeciferable screaming vocals. Just the "normal" more melodic styles, that "I" grew up with. It was interesting, and a bit odd, too...that when a group of younger muscians got up to play, they actually used "dynamics" to a better effect, than a lot of the more "veteran" players. They seemed to have a more innate sense of the need for dynamics, than (some of) the older, "more experienced" players. So, I thought I would post this, to see how others, here, feel about the use of good Dyanmics, not only in one's personal playing, but in overall band situations, as well. Let me know... CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It's all starts with the drummer Every good drummer I've jammed with has played in marching band or drum & bugle corps.... IMO they are the best drummers to jam with because they have great meters, and a sense of musical expression. Also having a great singer helps because the inclination for the supporting musicians is to play quite when there is singing going on.... A bad singer on the other hand, the inclination is to drown him or her out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I agree that it has to start with the drummer. Here's our old jazz band (I'm on the keys and my brother is on bass). This was done when I was 16-17 years old. Our drummer, who also played in our rock band, couldn't read a note. But he only had to listen to a tune once and he got every cut down perfectly. Listen to the part starting at 1:37. He nailed the cuts with the brass section. That's dynamics! I should note that we only practiced a chart twice. Our jazz instructor treated us like real musicians. You had one time to mess up and then you were expected to nail it the second time. All solos were ad libbed. We won every national competition we did (well except one in DC; had a bad day). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ_P8KfiAWE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 It's all starts with the drummer Every good drummer I've jammed with has played in marching band or drum & bugle corps.... IMO they are the best drummers to jam with because they have great meters, and a sense of musical expression. Also having a great singer helps because the inclination for the supporting musicians is to play quite when there is singing going on.... A bad singer on the other hand, the inclination is to drown him or her out LOL...yeah, maybe they're trying to tell ME something?! But, I (seriously) don't think that is the case, as they contiually encourage me to sing, lead and backup, both. And, as "singers" go, I'm no better or worse, than anyone else, in the band. So...??? But, "dynamics" seems to be an ongoing problem, anymore. It may be only with this bunch, I'm not sure. I (personally) think everyone in the area, plays too loud, for the venues, especially. When anyone says that, they'll back off on volume for a short while, and then it's right back up there, or even higher. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 LOL...yeah, maybe they're trying to tell ME something?! But, I (seriously) don't think that is the case, as they contiually encourage me to sing, lead and backup, both. And, as "singers" go, I'm no better or worse, than anyone else, in the band. So...??? But, "dynamics" seems to be an ongoing problem, anymore. It may be only with this bunch, I'm not sure. I (personally) think everyone in the area, plays too loud, for the venues, especially. When anyone says that, they'll back off on volume for a short while, and then it's right back up there, or even higher. CB I believe when all the musicians in the band have the responsibility to sing a song, that always help too.... My little Beatles tribute band is really good about using dynamics.... we are just bad about deciding what songs we are going to learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 IMO dynamics define style and add texture to music. Doing more with less, sometimes a half dozen whole notes says more then 12 half notes or 24 quarter notes....and there is a reason God put a volume control on amps and guitars.... I played drums for many years and while I could play solos, I thought drum solos were a odd waste of time, after all when guitarist or sax players do a solo does everyone else stop playing? I always wanted my solos to be seamless and integral to the song that we were playing, the same approach a keyboard player or a horn player would use when developing a solo... If you limit yourself to playing at one volume (loud) and one tempo (fast) you loose artistic expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Dynamics are everything! I believe this to my very core. There can be no Light without dark, no Heavy without soft, no loud without silence, no ups without downs. A flurry of 32nd notes means nothing if that's all you do, contrarily slow and reserved all night log will be boring as Muzak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 I can't and won't disagree with any of you, on dynamics! To me, they've always been "critical," both for overall sound/tone, and "artistic" expression, as well. Good stuff! Keep it coming. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Been to a lot of jams, sat in with lots of bands in more than a few rooms. Not every room will be ideal, and not every stage set will be, and it gets harder when you have different guys bringing different guitars and amps. I say that to say that IMO, what the player hears is far less important then what everyone else hears, such as the audience and the other players. Guitarist, MORE than anyone, tend to turn up way too loud. The tendency is to want to hear yourself at the same volume as the band, but in reality, if you can you are too loud. When the volume war starts, I think it best to duck out and let the other guy have his way. The best way to tell? I think if you perceive a hole in the mix that needs to be filled, then you got to fill it. If the rest of the band sounds good, then your part does not need to stand out in the mix. If you and another guitarist are playing the same thing, you will NOT be able to tell easily your part vs the other guitarist. You will barely hear yourself, ESPECIALLY if you are playing tight. Also, if you are playing the same part, it is best to only play only the main chord or to punctuate on the chords if the other guy is adding anything extra to it. As for the guitar volume vs the rest of the band? The guitar will ALWAYS be heard, just because of where it is in the mix. But as far as HOW prominent it is compared to the rest of the instruments, Basically as a rule of thumb if the drums and bass are the loudest, everyone wins and everyone boogies. So, no such thing as not loud being loud enough for a guitarist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I can't and won't disagree with any of you, on dynamics! To me, they've always been "critical," both for overall sound/tone, and "artistic" expression, as well. Good stuff! Keep it coming. CB Dynamics are a must. I think we have probably all gotten a little lazy with all the gadgets, amps, pickups etc... we have now to get "tone" . People have stopped thinking as much about picking dynamically and using volume control to get more or less gain and or clean sounds. Now everybody just uses their feet and stomp on a box. Doesn't get the same vibe. Could be our ears going as well After I built my JTM-45 clone I really started paying more attention to using volume and picking to control dynamics again.... I also started picking out parts in songs that I was just doubling the other guitar player ( especially during a verse) and one of us ( usually the person singing) will just drop out until the chorus or some kid of dynamic change is needed. For example in the Immigrant Song the other guitar player was singing and doubling the F# Octave riff during the verse. I asked him just to drop out and sing and then come back in when the open chords are hit. It sounded much bigger and we weren't slopping up the F# riff.... Anywho.... my 2 C's Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 One of my favorite dynamics is going from a Good singer to a Great singer. Like early Journey stuff..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twiz Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I definitely think a good grasp of dynamics is almost as important as playing in key, or in time. I love it when a band can be both loud or quiet. It makes the heavy parts heavier, or the quiet parts prettier. I mean, there are artists that have made their whole career just being loud (Motorhead), or quiet (Will Oldham), but it's cool to have one more thing in your sonic arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG Jones Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Been to a lot of jams, sat in with lots of bands in more than a few rooms. Not every room will be ideal, and not every stage set will be, and it gets harder when you have different guys bringing different guitars and amps. I say that to say that IMO, what the player hears is far less important then what everyone else hears, such as the audience and the other players. Guitarist, MORE than anyone, tend to turn up way too loud. The tendency is to want to hear yourself at the same volume as the band, but in reality, if you can you are too loud. When the volume war starts, I think it best to duck out and let the other guy have his way. The best way to tell? I think if you perceive a hole in the mix that needs to be filled, then you got to fill it. If the rest of the band sounds good, then your part does not need to stand out in the mix. If you and another guitarist are playing the same thing, you will NOT be able to tell easily your part vs the other guitarist. You will barely hear yourself, ESPECIALLY if you are playing tight. Also, if you are playing the same part, it is best to only play only the main chord or to punctuate on the chords if the other guy is adding anything extra to it. As for the guitar volume vs the rest of the band? The guitar will ALWAYS be heard, just because of where it is in the mix. But as far as HOW prominent it is compared to the rest of the instruments, Basically as a rule of thumb if the drums and bass are the loudest, everyone wins and everyone boogies. So, no such thing as not loud being loud enough for a guitarist. I NEVER play too loud! Everybody else does so I just have to turn up a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Stein hit on a lot of great points. The point about hearing yourself must be true. I'm often frustrated that I can't seem to hear what I'm playing, and just when I can hear myself good someone else in the band asks me to turn down. Most of the time though, people are telling me I'm not loud enough. I know all to well the frustration of trying to play with "dynamics" when it turns out in the end your just banging away trying to be heard in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 Stein hit on a lot of great points. The point about hearing yourself must be true. I'm often frustrated that I can't seem to hear what I'm playing, and just when I can hear myself good someone else in the band asks me to turn down. Most of the time though, people are telling me I'm not loud enough. I know all to well the frustration of trying to play with "dynamics" when it turns out in the end your just banging away trying to be heard in the mix. I'm (often) amazed, at how the room, can effect that very thing. It seems, the worse the acoustics, (maybe) the more critical, overall dynamics seem to be? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krock Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 You've got me thinking now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 You've got me thinking now That explains the smoke coming out of your ears.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 When, and when NOT to play, is always a part of "dynamics" as well. I think, sometimes, there can be too much, going on, which muddies up the live mix, as well. There is a tendency, at times, of a need to "fill space," when in fact, it may be better served, to reisit that. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 CB... There's a lotta great commentary here and yeah, I think some of the "kid" bands do far better than anybody I played with in the olden days, whether rock, country or country rock. I wonder... is it 'cuz they were brought up with stage monitors and we just hadda turn amps up and PA up and scream and hope somebody heard something? Yeah, I'm exaggerating a little on the rock - and it wasn't nearly that bad doing the country/country rock thing, but it wasn't as good as I think in retrospect it should have been. I also wonder sometimes if those "olden days" experiences colored some of the way older guys end up pickin'. It's also why I've been convinced the past number of years that a good PA rig is far more valuable than we thought in those days - at least the "we" I played with. Everybody had their own amps and it was as if there was a game to see who could get the most volume and the most to spend to get it. The group-owned PA was tube, whatever was cheap but half decent - and had relatively horrid speakers compared to nowadays. Mixer and a sound guy? Yeah, right. On a solo type gig I know I have a habit I've heard also from vids of most of the old folkie types of very little dynamics through much of anything whether southern mountain stuff or composed imitation "folk" music. And that's including the "legends" of that style of music that largely was from the same general period as I was rockin'. I think "the kids" have just plain better tools and, if they think a bit, probably better opportunity to make better music in terms of dyamics. Also, I can't forget that the concept of a "wall of sound" was also something to do "back when." And... I probably just have a lotta bad habits to overcome. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I think when I'm jamming with others dynamics are what separates a really sweet jam from the average one. My drummer and I have been playing together for a long time and we sort of leaned how to play with other people with each other so I feel like we're really good at feeling when to change speeds or how heavy or soft we play. For example, we've been working on a new song that is mostly pretty fast paced and rockin, but in the middle we have a somewhat improvised jam that slows down the speed cutting it at least in half. We do this for an indefinate period of time, and when we feel that it's time, without saying a word or nodding a head or anything, we always snap perfectly back into the regular fast part. I love playing with this drummer for this reason. We're just on the same page as far as dynamics go. Now to find some other musicians on our wavelength.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 CB... There's a lotta great commentary here and yeah, I think some of the "kid" bands do far better than anybody I played with in the olden days, whether rock, country or country rock. I wonder... is it 'cuz they were brought up with stage monitors and we just hadda turn amps up and PA up and scream and hope somebody heard something? Yeah, I'm exaggerating a little on the rock - and it wasn't nearly that bad doing the country/country rock thing, but it wasn't as good as I think in retrospect it should have been. I also wonder sometimes if those "olden days" experiences colored some of the way older guys end up pickin'. It's also why I've been convinced the past number of years that a good PA rig is far more valuable than we thought in those days - at least the "we" I played with. Everybody had their own amps and it was as if there was a game to see who could get the most volume and the most to spend to get it. The group-owned PA was tube, whatever was cheap but half decent - and had relatively horrid speakers compared to nowadays. Mixer and a sound guy? Yeah, right. On a solo type gig I know I have a habit I've heard also from vids of most of the old folkie types of very little dynamics through much of anything whether southern mountain stuff or composed imitation "folk" music. And that's including the "legends" of that style of music that largely was from the same general period as I was rockin'. I think "the kids" have just plain better tools and, if they think a bit, probably better opportunity to make better music in terms of dyamics. Also, I can't forget that the concept of a "wall of sound" was also something to do "back when." And... I probably just have a lotta bad habits to overcome. m OH, Yeah....on everything you said. I came up, in that "the louder, the better" era, too. Even if a Little Bit, later? Heck, at one point, I was preamping a Fender Twin Reverb, into a Marshall "Major" (200 watt, tube head) Full Stack! LOL I can't even imagine, that kind of volume, anymore. Yet, for us, it was almost "routine!" Those poor, underpowered PA's, didn't have a chance! (Smile) I mean, just remember, and watch the footage, from "The Beatles, at Shea Stadium!" Pathetic PA/"Sound System," yet several Vox AC 100 "Beatle" amps. I'm astonished, every time I watch that, they sounded as good, as they did. So, definitely, things have changed, for the (Much) better, tech wise. And, there may be something to us old guys, having a harder time, giving up "old habits?" Not sure... CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 CB... The one thing that kinda bothers me about the young guys on here - "Hi guys!" - is that often it seems they put emphasis on the guitar amp size more than quality at a given decibel level to be miked through a decent band sound system. Just like "we" did - and too often still do, "Dad Rock" or not. Stand in fronta the amps, crank 'em; then hope a PA can kinda keep up. Bands ain't changed that much in ways for the young guys, in that the social mixture still has 'em thinking of their personal gear more than a whole band sound. Bottom line is, "Who has the cash for a sound system of equivalent quality to the individual players' gear," or else, "How do guys trust each other enough to pool cash for a group purchase as opposed to getting that new personally-owned amp or guitar?" That's been mentioned on the forums by some of the younger guys, just as I would have mentioned it nearly 50 years ago. Their challenges are, in ways, far closer to our own than some of us may wish to think regardless of our age. The "kids" just have the "good news / bad news" of far more options in personal and band gear. "We" were the pioneers of increasingly powerful amplification and did the best we could, but I'm not sure "we" are passing on knowledge of our own weaknesses as well as some of the creative strengths. PA systems of less than half the quality of the rest of the band's gear is the best example of the old guys' weakness, I think. From what I've heard of some current bands, it seems things ain't changed much even though the raw power has increased. In fact, I'm thinking increasingly that my little cheapie "solo gig" PA isn't in the league to show well what I'm doing alone. Yet I've got thousands of bucks in guitars and amps that are quite good, but ain't going to help a performance necessarily match current "adult" audience expectations - at least not up to my own expectations on stage. Sound OK? Yeah, but real quality? I doubt it. Yet it's better than what I made money with in the '60s and 70s doing rock and saloon country and country rock. I dunno. Can I be heard with that gear? Yup. But can I be heard as well as the audience might hear on a good set of earphones or decent speakers even in a small venue? I don't think so. Even though I "use" a mike for different dynamics in a given piece if I'm singing, I don't think it works nearly as well as it should. I don't use a stage monitor, for example. A new bass and bass cab seem more important even though I know better. #$%@#%#@$ I remember doing a cupla gigs a cupla years ago where I did Stormy Monday not in my normal solo "whisperin'" style, but almost as a blues shouter so I could feel that the thing was heard over the guitars, bass and drums - just like the olden days. We know stage monitors would help that, and "we" know they and quality overall equipment are part of all really successful bands' live sound system, but "we" tend to think of our own next amp or guitar instead. So... I think those weaknesses and lacks are critical. I just don't know how to get the idea across to our own generation, let alone the younger generation since they have the same sort of human dynamics and concerns to live with as I did. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I think it very important for band members to have good dynamics. If you know them well enough, you can use them to the band's advantage to write awesome music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 MILOD: You doing "Stormy Monday" like that? you gonna shout it out that way? Well hell, that changes the game for me right there. I digress, cause that is like a game changer. NOW, I wanna get loud. I got the feeling now, I want to CRANK it. Gimme a stack. I shall wish to do as my forefathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 <chortle> Hell, I'm old, not dead. Yet, anyway. Those creases just make me look that way. m PS, here's how I think it should be done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVR8lg1YLuc OR.... A little more on the shout side... <grin> Great fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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