Morkolo Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I noticed Hogeye stated in a condescending manner to a fellow member that laminates do not move because of humidity issues. Here we go.... Laminates do move with humidity changes most times in a uniform way, however there are instances where an owner may not be so lucky. I have seen cases where the adhesive will let go between the laminates due to the stress of two conflicting pieces, the reasons can range from man made errors to wood simply having a mind of it's own. Anyway more often than not in instances with pieces as narrow as what is being used by Gibson on their fret boards now the exposed piece will swell from the increased moisture of the offending humidity change and only pure luck dictates whether or not that said piece returns to it's original form. This would cause a portion of the fretboard to appear to swell up, how much totally depends on the severity of the damage, the only guaranty is without much needed attention the problem will not go away on it's own. Most times to be properly repaired the offending piece will have to be removed which would most likely mean completely replacing the fretboard... an expensive undertaking if someone doesn't have the knowledge or skill to perform such a task. Laminates work well for their intended purposes and they do move... hopefully this clears up any misinformation posted by the uninformed. As for laminate necks well they serve their purpose as well but that's not to say they are without their problems. I've seen neck laminates separate from each other and from the wings of a neck through body... would I let that stop me from buying a guitar made in such a fashion, no. But I would prefer not to misguide members into believing such designs are problem free regardless of the name on the headstock. Now Hogeye see how I didn't have to make fun of you to get my point across, hopefully you can gain some humility from this experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Sorry if you are weary of me but.... I will always try to be the voice of reason here........There are 4 pages of ignorance here......... My point exactly. More of the same from Sir Hogeye. I need say no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltonwce Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I think that if the laminated product bothered someone to the point of anger. They should return product and buy another brand. That would leave more Gibsons for me to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57classic Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I noticed Hogeye stated in a condescending manner to a fellow member that laminates do not move because of humidity issues. Here we go.... Laminates do move with humidity changes most times in a uniform way, however there are instances where an owner may not be so lucky. I have seen cases where the adhesive will let go between the laminates due to the stress of two conflicting pieces, the reasons can range from man made errors to wood simply having a mind of it's own. Anyway more often than not in instances with pieces as narrow as what is being used by Gibson on their fret boards now the exposed piece will swell from the increased moisture of the offending humidity change and only pure luck dictates whether or not that said piece returns to it's original form. This would cause a portion of the fretboard to appear to swell up, how much totally depends on the severity of the damage, the only guaranty is without much needed attention the problem will not go away on it's own. Most times to be properly repaired the offending piece will have to be removed which would most likely mean completely replacing the fretboard... an expensive undertaking if someone doesn't have the knowledge or skill to perform such a task. Laminates work well for their intended purposes and they do move... hopefully this clears up any misinformation posted by the uninformed. As for laminate necks well they serve their purpose as well but that's not to say they are without their problems. I've seen neck laminates separate from each other and from the wings of a neck through body... would I let that stop me from buying a guitar made in such a fashion, no. But I would prefer not to misguide members into believing such designs are problem free regardless of the name on the headstock. Now Hogeye see how I didn't have to make fun of you to get my point across, hopefully you can gain some humility from this experience. I'm not coming down on the side of multi layer bridges or fretboards but need to address your claims here. Laminates like those used on 335's and such are more like traditional plywoods with the grain of the layers (plies) in different direction from the ply next to it. The plies on a 335 are not necessarily the same species as on another and are very thin-about the thickness of heavy card stock. There is high glue to wood ratio. The bridges and fretboards are a totally different matter. In both cases they are using the same species with the grain running in the same direction. All the 2 layer bridges appear cut from the same blank and glued on on top of each other. There will be zero difference in the amount or rate of swell. While I won't dispute your claim of laminated necks and headstock wings coming unglued, I can't imagine this happening in any normal circumstance. To pose a rhetorical question: how many times could one person have witnessed this occurrence? Don't take this as an attack. I'm just clearing up some misinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Wasn't it banded about here that currently they couldn't import rosewood of the thickness required for making 1-piece bridges, it certainly wasn't anything official but I'm sure one of the other lengthy threads on this contained that somewhere in it. If that's the case, explain it... but it would be interesting to know why others are not facing the same difficulty. The lack of any explanation starts to point folk in the direction of "using up scrap". Then there's been the speculation about it being behind the parting of ways between Gibson and Mr Ferguson, again lack of any clarity on the issue leads people to deduce that it does, after building the great reputation he has built in his Gibson tenure it does make sense to walk away if such a negative turnaround was commanded from above. Someone stated yesterday, if these were pac-rim guitars they'd be branded as a cheaply made for details such as laminate bridges and indeed it's true that even most pac-rim stuff comes with solid 1-piece bridges. It's at times like these when how a business continues is defined, by distancing themselves from the customer and doing a head in the sand routine Gibson is hurting itself, by taking a decision to come clean warts n all they may just manage to turn things to their favour, but one whiff of spin and even more folk will walk away from it. Lets just say in the brand wars among the big three Gibson has taken a shotgun aimed it squarely at it's own goal-scoring foot, pulled the trigger, blown it's toes off then sawn the leg off just under the knee to make sure it's done a good job of it, the G-brand detractors must be having a field day with this info. As more and more people use the internet for user group discussion in order to obtain reviews etc... this was a quite suicidal move. Thanks PM, for the clearest 'reality'(my perception) of this whole situation...IMHO..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Wasn't it banded about here that currently they couldn't import rosewood of the thickness required for making 1-piece bridges, it certainly wasn't anything official but I'm sure one of the other lengthy threads on this contained that somewhere in it. If that's the case, explain it... but it would be interesting to know why others are not facing the same difficulty. The lack of any explanation starts to point folk in the direction of "using up scrap". Then there's been the speculation about it being behind the parting of ways between Gibson and Mr Ferguson, again lack of any clarity on the issue leads people to deduce that it does, after building the great reputation he has built in his Gibson tenure it does make sense to walk away if such a negative turnaround was commanded from above. Someone stated yesterday, if these were pac-rim guitars they'd be branded as a cheaply made for details such as laminate bridges and indeed it's true that even most pac-rim stuff comes with solid 1-piece bridges. It's at times like these when how a business continues is defined, by distancing themselves from the customer and doing a head in the sand routine Gibson is hurting itself, by taking a decision to come clean warts n all they may just manage to turn things to their favour, but one whiff of spin and even more folk will walk away from it. Lets just say in the brand wars among the big three Gibson has taken a shotgun aimed it squarely at it's own goal-scoring foot, pulled the trigger, blown it's toes off then sawn the leg off just under the knee to make sure it's done a good job of it, the G-brand detractors must be having a field day with this info. As more and more people use the internet for user group discussion in order to obtain reviews etc... this was a quite suicidal move. Can't disagree with anything you say there. When I buy a Gibson, I want something made the traditional way, using traditional materials and methods. It doesn't get better than that for me. Saying a laminated bridge is more resistant to splitting is grasping at straws, even if there is an element of truth in it. It's certainly not the reason they made the change. Ditto the laminated fretboards. They can spin it any way they want, but it doesn't alter the fact that these are changes that some of us ultra-traditionalists find hard to swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I don't have any information about it, but I hope it's not a joke. Building a factory in Java does not imply that Gibson will be building guitars in Java. Java is an obvious alternative (to India) source of (lovely) rosewood for fretboards and bridges, and producing finished parts in Java may be a way of avoiding potential Lacey Act violations. (I have no idea what Java's export regulations look like, but, If I were Henry, I wouldn't be taking any chances at this point.) This is exactly the sort of innovative move that should have critics of laminated bridges and fretboards cheering. -- Bob R Candy coat it as you like! The 'real' reason is polically-motivated strong-arm, blackmail tactics by the government.... on a U.S.A.CORPORATE ICON that we all love and study the instruments and history of!... This kind action is not necessary at an economic time when American jobs are fewer and fewer....IS IT? At least thats the way I see it and feel about it That being said, I think it is a good time to help Gibson and to help 'affect' some 'political change'....Jes Sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I'm not coming down on the side of multi layer bridges or fretboards but need to address your claims here. Laminates like those used on 335's and such are more like traditional plywoods with the grain of the layers (plies) in different direction from the ply next to it. The plies on a 335 are not necessarily the same species as on another and are very thin-about the thickness of heavy card stock. There is high glue to wood ratio. The bridges and fretboards are a totally different matter. In both cases they are using the same species with the grain running in the same direction. All the 2 layer bridges appear cut from the same blank and glued on on top of each other. There will be zero difference in the amount or rate of swell. While I won't dispute your claim of laminated necks and headstock wings coming unglued, I can't imagine this happening in any normal circumstance. To pose a rhetorical question: how many times could one person have witnessed this occurrence? Don't take this as an attack. I'm just clearing up some misinformation. In all fairness though most issues with these guitars don't exactly happen within any normal circumstances. I believe you misunderstood the point I was trying to make about the swelling that could occur on a laminate fingerboard. Experience tells me the strongest bond will be between the neck material and bottom ply of the fingerboard, meaning the weakest would be the bond between the top ply and the bottom ply. So if any destructive change were to occur the first place it would happen would be between the plys of the fretboard. Once this happens because of the structural integrity of such a small laminated piece moisture from a spike in humidity can cause the top ply to lift and swell often leaving a pocket for more moisture to hang up in and eventually cause a bump on the fretboard. How much it can raise and effect playability can only be taken on a case by case basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 B) WOW....I am still digesting that!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Candy coat it as you like! The 'real' reason is polically-motivated strong-arm, blackmail tactics by the government.... on a U.S.A.CORPORATE ICON that we all love and study the instruments and history of!... This kind action is not necessary at an economic time when American jobs are fewer and fewer....IS IT? At least thats the way I see it and feel about it That being said, I think it is a good time to help Gibson and to help 'affect' some 'political change'....Jes Sayin It's sad because if history tells us anything it's that if 2500 jobs are created in a foreign country, in this case Fiji, more than just a couple of workers will lose their lively hood on American soil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Meanwhile over on the UMGF folks are gnashing mad about finish cracks eminating from the bridges on their fairly recently constructed Martins. http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/133086/Another-victim-of-the-bridge-corner-finish-crack-Pic-added I think the Gibson - laminated bridge could be solved by applying care and craftsmanship to the challenge. Gibson is not alone in the manufacturing issues / challenges. In case folks are determined to cut Gibson adrift - at least you can usually see a laminate, these cracks may not show up until well after purchase. Check yer Martins - I checked mine, so far so good, but now I may have to keep checking again and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hey!...Never inteaded to cut Gibson adrift! Only seek to acquire more VINTAGE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 They could market these guitars as "the NEW Norlin's!!!" We're baaaa-aaaack!!! Now there's some nostalgia for you!!!! With the new "stronger and more stable" fretboards and bridges, WHYYYYY, these are BETTER than a Norlin!!!! This has a new marketing angle written all over it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 They could market these guitars as "the NEW Norlin's!!!" We're baaaa-aaaack!!! Now there's some nostalgia for you!!!! With the new "stronger and more stable" fretboards and bridges, WHYYYYY, these are BETTER than a Norlin!!!! This has a new marketing angle written all over it!!! Our existing fleet of Gibsons: second-hand and vintage are now perhaps worth a lot more! People can purchase the 'New Norlins' if they wish, but another whole segment of Gibson buyers may be be looking at second hand Gibson Acoustics from the Golden Era Of Ren..... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotTheSilver Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 This is a very long thread that I am coming to late. I have had too many thoughts while reading this thread to fully address each of them, so I will address the main ones quickly in bullet point fashion. - I agree with the statement that if a Pac Rim guitar had a laminated bridge and fretboard, it would be considered evidence of poor quality and a cheaply made guitar. Gibson's use of laminated bridges and fretboards give their guitars this image as well. - Personally, I choose not to buy any of the guitars that Gibson is making with laminated bridges and/or fretboards when there are so many great Gibsons already out there on the used market. But I do not question others' decisions to buy these new guitars. - It is my sincere hope (and expectation) that this situation will eventually be resolved and Gibson will go back to making guitars with one piece rosewood bridges and fretboards. - 2,500 people sounds like an awful lot to make just bridges and fretboards in Fiji. - Gibson has been trying out a lot of different substitute materials to see what works. I can't dis them for that, and actually applaud them for working so hard to find ways to keep producing guitars under these circumstances. - I don't believe these changes have anything to do with bean counting. I believe they are squarely the result of the Lacey Act and the raids. - A lot of people here (understandably) are not looking at this from a business point of view, but Henry has to. To come out immediately with a press release that says "We are now making guitars with sub-standard materials" would have a business killer and a stupid business move. Overall, it would have done more damage to his business than the way he has proceeded. As his recent appearance on Fox News shows (I did not see the interview, just going from the above referenced article), Henry has publicly acknowledged that Gibson has to use some materials and methods that are not their first choice, and he is not happy about it. - It is easy for people to say "Gibson should have done XXX instead of using laminated bridges", but none of us have as much information about this as Henry and the folks at Gibson do. None of us know all of the details about what Gibson is facing in terms of legal issues and difficulties in sourcing wood that meets their needs. If we did know all the details, and were responsible for keeping a company in business and people employed, we might better understand the choices that Gibson has made. - I would prefer it if they substituted a different wood, such as walnut, for the bridge instead of using laminated bridges, but I am not the one making the decisions, nor do I have all of the information Gibson has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Bobby B I'm sorry you have fallen into the trap of reading this forum too much and starting to worry about your beautiful guitar. You have posted some stunning pics of your Bird and a great sound clip also. I'd advise puuting your worries and doubts to bed, stop reading the nonsense this issue seems to invoke ( ie swelling frettboards exploding bridges and Norlin Era quality) and just PLAY IT enjoy it man... its a feckin lovely guitar ( and i dont wont to doubt your claims of 3 piece ..but it looks like two piece to me.....you can clearly see the grain change on the top between the top and bottom piece... but no change in grain with the line you say is the third.. I suppose they might go to the trouble of making a three piece..but I seriously doubt it) I am no Gibson aficionado, but just from reading this forum I am under the impression Gibson is producing some of the best guitars they have ever produced in the present era. I think some are forgetting this. Sometimes I feel I'm reading a Financial Times article here. What alot of folk forget is that mosrt people who buy guitars are muscians..and don't even read forums about their instruments. The buy them based on how the sound..and look.. ( and Bobby it took you a long time to believe the bridge is now 3 piece... I mean you must be REALLY looking close.) All the points and issues have been raised already.... it is what it is. Good on you PM for putting your statement that you would never buy a Lacey Act Gibson behind you...and keeping your J50 'cos it sounds sweet. Disparaging statements buy folk who have never played or even heard any instrument have to be taken at what they are. If I didn't own a Harley Davidson and had never ridden one, then went on a Harley fan website slagging off how they are built and saying they are gonna break down....I'd be told to take a hike. I am in the process of recording some songs for a demo album.. I'll post some when I finish them.. after all thats why I bought my guitar... to make music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Somebody pointed out the other day rosewood bridge blanks (1-piece) were available from as low as $18, would I have paid an extra $18 dollars for them to use a 3rd party-piece, yes... Laminating the parts was not the only choice on the table... again it raises the question as to why Gibson seem to be the only one facing this trouble. The raids explain a certain amount of that but they have had a while now to put plan B in action.. or plan X contingency-mode... buy 3rd party blanks, reshape and use.... when you're spending 2-4k would an extra $30 make much of a difference? When there are other options on the table this does reflect negatively on the choice that was taken. But choices made are choices that have to be lived with, just as my own choice is to keep the J-50 I bought last week as it really appealed to me. I fully accept that I could return it today and have a refund without question and for some that might equate to a "what are you moaning about, just return the guitar" situation, fair enough, it is an option open to me for another couple of weeks, but any readers of this thread who've read my J-50 thread will see I already deliberated a few points on the guitar already and decided to keep it. I even stated that I was so impressed with the sound that if these guitars were dimly viewed I'd be tempted to pick up another Lacey Act model going cheap 2nd hand due to the affected desirability of these guitars. What it will change though, is if Gibson won't go the extra mile for the customers supporting them in this time, I'd be less likely to support them again, I'm a repeat customer, I've spent well on their products (4 'new' guitars in less than 16 months), I have no kids, unlikely to have any, I have a decent job, what I don't have is a million hobbies, the guitar is my main interest so I probably fit the profile of a repeat customer they want to keep. Working in the financial business I really can appreciate the business decisions Gibson has faced, the old adage of 'adapt and survive' is what's at play here. That said, there is an extra duty of care to customers accepting these guitars, something from their end might be just the ticket to get these customers back. You only need to sample a few posts on any of the threads that have touched on 'Lacey Act' guitars to see the most common response is "I won't buy one" and that ramps up to "I'm finished with Gibson" in some cases, this board is even run by them so it's not like they have to look far for a customer focus group on these issues, it's right here for them and it doesn't make pretty reading. If this latest development is more than a blip they will have some very serious business issues, if it is a blip they've disgruntled a fair few customers in a short space of time. Another recent thread asked how many Gibson's do you own, it was quite a surprise to see many of us owned so many. Again a nice bit of free market research for them, so the onus is on them to truly digest the info made available to them and work out of they really want to continue to risk losing multiple-purchase customers. Dark times my friends. To finish off on a positive note, the guitars do sound great, both myself and Bobby B have commented so, but there is a very big 'but' involved too, we'd be clowns not realise that and Gibson would be clowns to fail to take that onboard. I certainly wouldn't buy another of these new so any further Gibson related business I do will be in the 2nd hand market until the issue is resolved and corrected. ...and none of that business is going to keep workers in jobs at Bozeman, if many other customers/repeat customers start to think likewise it doesn't bode well for them. Cheers. P.s. Hogeye, that rushed and angry response to us all merited being posted on many another guitar forum, but normally this one conducts itself more gentlemanly than that. The "4 pages of ignorance" as you describe it, if present, was far surpassed by the ignorance of your own post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 They could market these guitars as "the NEW Norlin's!!!" We're baaaa-aaaack!!! Now there's some nostalgia for you!!!! With the new "stronger and more stable" fretboards and bridges, WHYYYYY, these are BETTER than a Norlin!!!! This has a new marketing angle written all over it!!! Can double-X top bracing be far behind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby b Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 Del Nilppeznaf Thanks for the concern, as said before , I am happy with the guitar. I am not at all worried about any of the other posted 'guesses' regarding longevity/durability or integrity of the fretboard and bridge. Yes, it is/was a bit disconcerting to 'discover' this layered bridge, I guess I was just wanting to put the info out there.......... My worries and or doubts have been truly 'put to bed' The talk of swelling fretboards and double X-braces, "New Norlins" etc.. is just silly IMO. This guitar was built while Ren was stiil at the helm.... yet there are still comments like this... ...... " People can purchase the 'New Norlins' if they wish, but another whole segment of Gibson buyers may be be looking at second hand Gibson Acoustics from the Golden Era Of Ren..... " The date of the guitar is within the Ren Era .... so now what say ye? On a much lighter musical note...... I was up late ( 3:30am ) playing the 'bird. I love those late quiet hours, creative juices just get flowin'.... and the 'bird, oh she sang ever so sweetly. My wife was curled up beside me enjoying the sweet tones. I stopped on several occasions and just marvelled at the deep warm sustained throb that was emanating from the guitar.....pure magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 ...... " People can purchase the 'New Norlins' if they wish, but another whole segment of Gibson buyers may be be looking at second hand Gibson Acoustics from the Golden Era Of Ren..... " The date of the guitar is within the Ren Era .... so now what say ye? Mines was made a few days after the official end of his tenure... nice post Bobby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby b Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 Mines was made a few days after the official end of his tenure... nice post Bobby! Dude......your J50 is gorgeous! I would not hesitate to add one of those to my stable..... build date aside... if the sound was there, then that would be my deciding factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 if the sound was there, then that would be my deciding factor. Cheers Bobby, it is and yes I will be keeping it..... ;) Have a great weekend mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I like those quiet hours too......the guitar seems to sound SOOO good when all is quiet......I'm glad you like the new guitar.....many happy hours of playing!!! Del Nilppeznaf Thanks for the concern, as said before , I am happy with the guitar. I am not at all worried about any of the other posted 'guesses' regarding longevity/durability or integrity of the fretboard and bridge. Yes, it is/was a bit disconcerting to 'discover' this layered bridge, I guess I was just wanting to put the info out there.......... My worries and or doubts have been truly 'put to bed' The talk of swelling fretboards and double X-braces, "New Norlins" etc.. is just silly IMO. This guitar was built while Ren was stiil at the helm.... yet there are still comments like this... ...... " People can purchase the 'New Norlins' if they wish, but another whole segment of Gibson buyers may be be looking at second hand Gibson Acoustics from the Golden Era Of Ren..... " The date of the guitar is within the Ren Era .... so now what say ye? On a much lighter musical note...... I was up late ( 3:30am ) playing the 'bird. I love those late quiet hours, creative juices just get flowin'.... and the 'bird, oh she sang ever so sweetly. My wife was curled up beside me enjoying the sweet tones. I stopped on several occasions and just marvelled at the deep warm sustained throb that was emanating from the guitar.....pure magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Somebody pointed out the other day rosewood bridge blanks (1-piece) were available from as low as $18, would I have paid an extra $18 dollars for them to use a 3rd party-piece, yes... Laminating the parts was not the only choice on the table... again it raises the question as to why Gibson seem to be the only one facing this trouble. The raids explain a certain amount of that but they have had a while now to put plan B in action.. or plan X contingency-mode... buy 3rd party blanks, reshape and use.... when you're spending 2-4k would an extra $30 make much of a difference? When there are other options on the table this does reflect negatively on the choice that was taken. But choices made are choices that have to be lived with, just as my own choice is to keep the J-50 I bought last week as it really appealed to me. I fully accept that I could return it today and have a refund without question and for some that might equate to a "what are you moaning about, just return the guitar" situation, fair enough, it is an option open to me for another couple of weeks, but any readers of this thread who've read my J-50 thread will see I already deliberated a few points on the guitar already and decided to keep it. I even stated that I was so impressed with the sound that if these guitars were dimly viewed I'd be tempted to pick up another Lacey Act model going cheap 2nd hand due to the affected desirability of these guitars. What it will change though, is if Gibson won't go the extra mile for the customers supporting them in this time, I'd be less likely to support them again, I'm a repeat customer, I've spent well on their products (4 'new' guitars in less than 16 months), I have no kids, unlikely to have any, I have a decent job, what I don't have is a million hobbies, the guitar is my main interest so I probably fit the profile of a repeat customer they want to keep. Working in the financial business I really can appreciate the business decisions Gibson has faced, the old adage of 'adapt and survive' is what's at play here. That said, there is an extra duty of care to customers accepting these guitars, something from their end might be just the ticket to get these customers back. You only need to sample a few posts on any of the threads that have touched on 'Lacey Act' guitars to see the most common response is "I won't buy one" and that ramps up to "I'm finished with Gibson" in some cases, this board is even run by them so it's not like they have to look far for a customer focus group on these issues, it's right here for them and it doesn't make pretty reading. If this latest development is more than a blip they will have some very serious business issues, if it is a blip they've disgruntled a fair few customers in a short space of time. Another recent thread asked how many Gibson's do you own, it was quite a surprise to see many of us owned so many. Again a nice bit of free market research for them, so the onus is on them to truly digest the info made available to them and work out of they really want to continue to risk losing multiple-purchase customers. Dark times my friends. To finish off on a positive note, the guitars do sound great, both myself and Bobby B have commented so, but there is a very big 'but' involved too, we'd be clowns not realise that and Gibson would be clowns to fail to take that onboard. I certainly wouldn't buy another of these new so any further Gibson related business I do will be in the 2nd hand market until the issue is resolved and corrected. ...and none of that business is going to keep workers in jobs at Bozeman, if many other customers/repeat customers start to think likewise it doesn't bode well for them. Cheers. P.s. Hogeye, that rushed and angry response to us all merited being posted on many another guitar forum, but normally this one conducts itself more gentlemanly than that. The "4 pages of ignorance" as you describe it, if present, was far surpassed by the ignorance of your own post. The best part of your uniformed post was your Post Script. Ignorance implys just that. Lack of knowledge. My post was nothing more than setting the record straight with knowledge.I have stated my case and all your rants are now falling on deaf ears. Gibson is going thru a very difficult time and they are doing the very best to make the situation a positive one. If anyone here thinks they are taking financial advantage of the situation you are wrong. It is costing them a great deal more to make the laminated parts than it would normally cost. They are absorbing the cost and not passing it on to you. Most of you feel that Gibson has gone out of their way to injure you. Nothing could be further from the truth. You seem to have all the answers. Do you think that the folks at Gibson haven't visited all their options? Do you have some special information they don't? Do you have access to their business plans and know more about the situation than they? The folks making these decisions are doing their best to impact you as little as possible. Yes I know the world revolves around your "special" wisdom. Must be lonely up there in your Ivory Tower. Your Passive/Aggressive postings are disturbing to say the least. I find it very peculilar that you have yours and it is just fine.Then you state "but I won't support them again"? I just don't get your reasoning. Do you actually think that the next guitar you try will be any less than the one you love now? Oh, I get it. We're all supposed to cut off our noses just to spite our face? Your posting is encouraging that flawed reasoning and that is objectionable. Please keep your J-50 and enjoy it. You have no problem throwing 120 hard working honest people under the buss. They are my friends and you are encouraging others to stop buying their guitars out of your ignorance. So if everyone on this forum decides not to buy Gibson guitars because of your ranting will you sleep better? I see... Lets put 120 hard working, tax paying honest people out of work because you have your sensibilites injured. Yes I will fight for my friends and your public assult will not elicite a gentlemanly responce from me. I am no gentleman and have never claimed to be. Ask Buc. This is serious business and saying flippant, hurtful things like "I will be less likely to support them again" and "I would never buy another one of these new" is not helping. When you are wrong I will call you out... You are wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 This is a very long thread that I am coming to late. I have had too many thoughts while reading this thread to fully address each of them, so I will address the main ones quickly in bullet point fashion. - I agree with the statement that if a Pac Rim guitar had a laminated bridge and fretboard, it would be considered evidence of poor quality and a cheaply made guitar. Gibson's use of laminated bridges and fretboards give their guitars this image as well. - Personally, I choose not to buy any of the guitars that Gibson is making with laminated bridges and/or fretboards when there are so many great Gibsons already out there on the used market. But I do not question others' decisions to buy these new guitars. - It is my sincere hope (and expectation) that this situation will eventually be resolved and Gibson will go back to making guitars with one piece rosewood bridges and fretboards. - 2,500 people sounds like an awful lot to make just bridges and fretboards in Fiji. - Gibson has been trying out a lot of different substitute materials to see what works. I can't dis them for that, and actually applaud them for working so hard to find ways to keep producing guitars under these circumstances. - I don't believe these changes have anything to do with bean counting. I believe they are squarely the result of the Lacey Act and the raids. - A lot of people here (understandably) are not looking at this from a business point of view, but Henry has to. To come out immediately with a press release that says "We are now making guitars with sub-standard materials" would have a business killer and a stupid business move. Overall, it would have done more damage to his business than the way he has proceeded. As his recent appearance on Fox News shows (I did not see the interview, just going from the above referenced article), Henry has publicly acknowledged that Gibson has to use some materials and methods that are not their first choice, and he is not happy about it. - It is easy for people to say "Gibson should have done XXX instead of using laminated bridges", but none of us have as much information about this as Henry and the folks at Gibson do. None of us know all of the details about what Gibson is facing in terms of legal issues and difficulties in sourcing wood that meets their needs. If we did know all the details, and were responsible for keeping a company in business and people employed, we might better understand the choices that Gibson has made. - I would prefer it if they substituted a different wood, such as walnut, for the bridge instead of using laminated bridges, but I am not the one making the decisions, nor do I have all of the information Gibson has. Thank you for your very reasonable post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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