J-45 Hell

[gearbasher]

BTW your sn. makes it an early '93.

[j45nick]

I am hoping someone here with more knowledge about how to cipher out an accurate date with a Gibson serial number can date this guitar with a high degree of certainty....I truly do hope it is not from the Gibson Montana era...but the sound hole tag says it is. I used the same method to date this guitar as the one I used to date my 1997 CL20 Standard plus...which proved to be an accurate date.

 

 

March 29, 1993. It is a Bozeman guitar, which should embarrass the heck out of them.

[blindboygrunt]

March 29, 1993. It is a Bozeman guitar, which should embarrass the heck out of them.

 

Could someone clarify for the likes of me , why Gibson should be embarrassed?

What was or wasn't done at Bozeman to cause the damage that the guitar now has ?

 

I've got a scenario in my head of being the second or third owner of a ford and it not driving perfect so I blame the guys in the factory and not consider how it was driven for the past 13 years

Maybe not a great analogy but it's something

[OldCowboy]

Could someone clarify for the likes of me , why Gibson should be embarrassed?

What was or wasn't done at Bozeman to cause the damage that the guitar now has ?

 

I've got a scenario in my head of being the second or third owner of a ford and it not driving perfect so I blame the guys in the factory and not consider how it was driven for the past 13 years

Maybe not a great analogy but it's something

I'm still hoping for some satori with all this, but really don't expect it. Somehow, somewhere, sometime the guitar got to be a mess. You think Ford, I think Dodge - 😄😂😅 - but that's likely more appropriate for a different thread (Dodge and I don't do well together). "If that guitar could talk..." we might know😒

[j45nick]

Could someone clarify for the likes of me , why Gibson should be embarrassed?

What was or wasn't done at Bozeman to cause the damage that the guitar now has ?

 

I've got a scenario in my head of being the second or third owner of a ford and it not driving perfect so I blame the guys in the factory and not consider how it was driven for the past 13 years

Maybe not a great analogy but it's something

 

 

I'm talking about how far off-center the neck was in the neck block. It isn't uncommon to see thin shims to center the neck, but that seems to be pretty far off, so much so that it could de-stabilize the neck joint in the long run. Hide glue is good stuff, but its strength does depend on solid surface contact and a good fit. It's not a structural gap-filler.

 

But you're right, we don't know the rest of the history of the guitar, to know how it got to its current state. If the guy who made the videos is correct about some of the glue in the neck joint, you have to wonder. I wouldn't be surprised if Tite-bond was used to glue the shims to the side of the neck at the original fitting, but he seemed to imply there was other non-hide glue in the joint itself, which doesn't make much sense.

 

The fracture on the back of the neck may well be from truss rod abuse sometime in the past. The Gibson neck design is not particularly robust in that area.

 

The fractured neck block is another story. Removing a neck can be sort of like orthopedic surgery: it's not for the squeamish to watch.

 

It's also possible the guitar was dropped, sometime in its life, so that it hit headstock first on a hard surface. If that happened, all bets are off.

 

But none of those things explains the seriously off-center neck. With modern CNC machining the basic components, there seems to be little excuse for that. Certainly final hand-fitting of those components is still a skill to be admired.

[OldCowboy]

I'm talking about how far off-center the neck was in the neck block. It isn't uncommon to see thin shims to center the neck, but that seems to be pretty far off, so much so that it could de-stabilize the neck joint in the long run. Hide glue is good stuff, but its strength does depend on solid surface contact and a good fit. It's not a structural gap-filler.

 

But you're right, we don't know the rest of the history of the guitar, to know how it got to its current state. If the guy who made the videos is correct about some of the glue in the neck joint, you have to wonder. I wouldn't be surprised if Tite-bond was used to glue the shims to the side of the neck at the original fitting, but he seemed to imply there was other non-hide glue in the joint itself, which doesn't make much sense.

 

The fracture on the back of the neck may well be from truss rod abuse sometime in the past. The Gibson neck design is not particularly robust in that area.

 

The fractured neck block is another story. Removing a neck can be sort of like orthopedic surgery: it's not for the squeamish to watch.

 

It's also possible the guitar was dropped, sometime in its life, so that it hit headstock first on a hard surface. If that happened, all bets are off.

 

But none of those things explains the seriously off-center neck. With modern CNC machining the basic components, there seems to be little excuse for that. Certainly final hand-fitting of those components is still a skill to be admired.

Thanks, Nick - at least that fills a couple blanks!

[fortyearspickn]

Doctor McCoy, as the original poster, and can of worms opener - not having heard from you since - can we declare this thread/patient dead and pull the plug?

[Allie]

BTW your sn. makes it an early '93.

Thanks, as I said they can be hard to nail down...the more you do the more accurate you should be..or at least I would think so.

[Hogeye]

My goodness. So much misinformation here it's hard to tell where to start.

 

First of all when you examine the footage you will not see a crack in the guitar rib. The butcher claims he opened the finish along the side of the neck but not the top. While opening the finish alongside the neck there was no talk of a huge rib split???

 

He refers to the guitar being a 2nd. It has always been Gibson's policy to NOT MAKE SECONDS. Gibson Montana has never made or released a 2nd guitar. NEVER. Gibson makes guitars in an assembly line situation. When a guitar leaves an area and goes to the next station it is examined and if there is a problem the guitar is taken out of production. It's not a problem of building ethics it's a problem of cost. It's cheaper to destroy the guitar at this point than is to send it back and be repaired. It's all about the time needed to fix a problem. Time is money. PERIOD...

 

He states that he knows Gibson made seconds and that is just not true.

 

Now let's get to the problem this butcher caused. Please don't call him a luthier. Luthiers make stringed instruments. They don't butcher them. He is not a repairman. He is certainly not an authorized Gibson repairman. He admits to that. Many here will take exception of me calling this person a butcher. Read on.

 

I don't know the owner of the guitar but I will bet when the owner sent the guitar to this butcher for repair it didn't have a split in the side.

 

Ok... I will try to calm down and address the problems. When he injected the steam into the guitar neck he never mentioned any side split and none is visible.

He has now removed the neck and he starts his assessment of the guitar. If you look at the broken rib anyone can see that the split is fresh. There is no evidence of any dirt or wax in the crack. There is no evidence of any glue in the crack. This is a fresh crack. If you look at the split in the neck block you will see there is no glue in the crack. It is also fresh looking. He states with certainty that Gibson knew the crack was there at the time of manufacture. If that is true there would be glue in the crack from,if nothing else, the neck set. The neck block cavity is covered In glue but none in the crack? There is no glue of any kind in the neck block crack. The man states that Gibson knew the neck block was cracked from the time of manufacture. If that is true why wouldn't they at least put some glue in the neck block crack? It would be impossible for the neck to be set with a cracked neck block. This guitar would have been to several stations at this point and every station involved would have had the guitar rejected and sawn up.

 

He has discovered a cleat in the rib to repair the damage? This is not a cleat and certainly nothing like a cleat. This is a reinforcement patch for the addition of electronics at a later date. This reinforcement patch is not there to fix any split in the rib. If Gibson were to cleat the crack there would be multiple cleats along the crack not one big patch. They would certainly put glue into the crack to hold it together. This crack has never been glued. It has never been cleated. It is a fresh break.

 

He shows the neck once it's off the guitar and there is a shim or two that have been put on by some other kind of glue than hide glue. If you look at the top of the dovetail you can see a big chip taken out of the very top edge of the dovetail. This neck has been taken off before and the top of the dovetail where the fret board was taken off caused this damage. The fret board is still on the guitar so this damage has occurred earlier and not the fault of this butcher. I can tell you for a fact that Gibson has no other glue at the neck set station other than hide glue. NONE. NO Gorilla glue is even in the place as well as epoxy.

 

The neck block is broken and it was the result of this butcher taking the neck off. This is a fresh break and it has no trace of glue in it. There would be some trace of hide glue residue from the neck set. Nothing. The rib crack is also fresh. No sign of and dirt in this crack whatsoever. He explained the crack was cleated and finished over. There was no crack in the rib until he took the neck off. There is no nitro in the crack and I can tell you that if the crack were sprayed over there would be nitro in the crack. There isn't the split is clean.

 

Nitrocellulose lacquer is very thin and it would have sunk into the crack showing the crack. No amount of nitro could hide this crack. Anyone can tell you that a crack can't be finished over. Especially a crack that has never been glued. If Gibson took the time to cleat the inside of the guitar in an attempt to fix the rib crack why wouldn't they put glue into the crack to keep it from opening up? Why wouldn't they put glue into the neck block crack? None of the cracks show any evidence of any attempt to glue them. NONE....

 

This man has ruined this guitar while attempting to take the neck off. He and he alone broke this neck block and caused the rib to crack. There was no crack in the rib until he pressed the neck off. He brags about drilling into the dovetail and the problem is he missed the dovetail joint completely. He drilled into the flat area behind the dovetail. To remove a neck properly the steam needs to be injected into the area of the dovetail where the slant of the dovetail fits into the pocket. He missed the joint and had to put undue pressure on the neck causing the neck block to fail and the rib to crack. This man is not an authorized repair person. This man is a guitar butcher and then he lies about the fact that he damaged the guitar blaming it on Gibson's faulty construction. It's bad enough he alone destroyed the finish and destroyed the neck block but he is now lying to cover his tracks. He and he alone destroyed this guitar. He is guilty of tainting Gibson's reputation and anyone with any guitar repair knowledge knows this. He is a bad repair person and an even worse liar.

 

The double action truss rod is indeed a ticking time bomb for Gibson. This damage to the back of the neck was due to someone unfamiliar with how to adjust a double action truss rod. Having said this it is obvious to anyone that the guitar was butchered by at least two hacks.

 

The damage to this guitar was not the fault of Gibson. The last butcher to ruin this guitar owes the owner a new guitar. Simple as that.

 

I wish I could express myself better as this guitar and video demand a better explanation. I have tried. Let the discussion continue.

[blindboygrunt]

Ta da !

[j45nick]

Thanks, Hogeye.

[Buc McMaster]

Wow. What a mess. I personally find it very difficult to accept that Gibson would allow such work out of the factory and I reject this guys' claim that this was all their doing. I cannot speak for the Bozeman facility but I have seen Gibson electrics stamped with a "2" above the serial number on the back of the headstock. A few observations......

 

Perhaps it's the poor video quality but that sure doesn't look like a Gibson sunburst. Much to yellow to my eye.

 

Also to my eye, if the shim was removed, the neck tenon certainly does appear to be centered, while the dovetail cut in the neck block looks off-center. It looks like the shim was added to correct for a misplaced neck block. Now that sounds like it could be a factory error, gluing a neck block in the wrong spot. But I'm at a loss to explain how that could happen at the factory and I still can't get next to the idea that such an error would be allowed out of the building.

 

As Hogeye pointed out, there is no mention of the cracked side prior to the neck coming off the guitar, not by this hack repairman nor by the owner that has posted in this thread. I would hence conclude that the improper removal of the neck caused the side crack as well as the broken neck block. And for a crack running down the side like that, a single large patch (cleat as he calls it) is not the way to fix it. Several small cleats spaced along the length of the crack is the proper repair.

 

This guitar may well have had some problems when delivered to this hack but now it seems it's really gone south due to incompetence. Sheesh. Tough spot for the owner as the guy is gonna deny deny deny any wrong doing, but if the video is any evidence he doesn't have much ground to stand on.

[OldCowboy]

Sincere appreciation, Hogeye!

[62burst]

Hogeye- thanks for checking in with your considerable Bozeman experience. I'd seen you circling this thread a few times, waiting/deciding if/when to post. Glad you did.

[ponty]

Hogeye has said it as it is..He gets my vote!

[Leonard McCoy]

Although I didn't post these videos..I'm not sorry that someone else did. I'm also not looking for (nor expecting) anything from Gibson. I am not the original owner, however when I bought the guitar the issue with the neck that has been revealed would never have crossed my mind...not on a Gibson, I have lost much respect for the company, and it really boils down to a person or two IN the building process that probably aren't even at Gibson anymore. I do wonder if there are any more Gibson guitars out there with an unsuspecting owner that thinks he has one of the best,when in reality it's something less. That being said I'm going to get mine repaired and move on. The only real issue will be the finish. It will most likely never be as good as it was before this catastrophe. I'll live with.

Once the guitar is repaired do you consider getting her refinished in full (perhaps even at the Mothership)? I'm guessing the extensive repair work alone, though, is already going to cost a pretty penny.

[OldCowboy]

Once the guitar is repaired do you consider getting her refinished in full (perhaps even at the Mothership)? I'm guessing the extensive repair work alone, though, is already going to cost a pretty penny.

Plus, possibly, repairs to the currently underway repairs?

[fortyearspickn]

Once the guitar is repaired do you consider getting her refinished in full (perhaps even at the Mothership)? I'm guessing the extensive repair work alone, though, is already going to cost a pretty penny.

 

Doctor McCoy - If I were captain of the Starship Bozeman, I wouldn't allow this disaster to beam up. At this point, if the owner believes this 'luthier' can fix the many structural problems that exist with this guitar, he certainly would believe he can spay a new sunburst.

[Allie]

Once the guitar is repaired do you consider getting her refinished in full (perhaps even at the Mothership)? I'm guessing the extensive repair work alone, though, is already going to cost a pretty penny.

Not likely, I'll wait and see how the repair turns out and the neck set goes....I can however say this.

Unless a magician had the neck off my guitar before it left my hands it has never been off before. The finish was to natural for it to have been off. I don't care what anyone says...especially anyone that has never actually seen the guitar. And whats this about a cleat being put on all Gibsons beside the neck block? I have a 97 here and that doesn't have one. As for the crack in the neck under the truss rod, that's what can happen when the neck isn't on a guitar right and it juts up at the 14th fret...the first thing anyone would try to do is adjust the truss rod to take out some of the relief and without knowing Gibson ground out most of the wood to accommodate a poorly designed truss rod, it pushes through. I was as surprised as anyone here to see those videos when I came here this morning, and I wasn't expecting any love when I did see them..and I wasn't disappointed in that respect.

If that neck left Bozeman like I see it come off my guitar and I have every reason to believe it did, all I can say is it could be anyone of us and you won't know it till you have to take the neck off of your guitar.

 

I didn't come here asking anything of Gibson, nor do I expect to ever see them acknowledge that it happened, but it is what it is. I'm not going to hang around here and argue about this. I'm going to accept it for what it is and move on. You people have a good day.

[62burst]

Guitar in question, Video 1, t = 18:40, before it's latest neck removal:

 

[slimt]

Butchery at its best from a Hack luthier..

 

BTW I heard a crack at about 7:20 and one shortly after.

[Hogeye]

Not likely, I'll wait and see how the repair turns out and the neck set goes....I can however say this.

Unless a magician had the neck off my guitar before it left my hands it has never been off before. The finish was to natural for it to have been off. I don't care what anyone says...especially anyone that has never actually seen the guitar. And whats this about a cleat being put on all Gibsons beside the neck block? I have a 97 here and that doesn't have one. As for the crack in the neck under the truss rod, that's what can happen when the neck isn't on a guitar right and it juts up at the 14th fret...the first thing anyone would try to do is adjust the truss rod to take out some of the relief and without knowing Gibson ground out most of the wood to accommodate a poorly designed truss rod, it pushes through. I was as surprised as anyone here to see those videos when I came here this morning, and I wasn't expecting any love when I did see them..and I wasn't disappointed in that respect.

If that neck left Bozeman like I see it come off my guitar and I have every reason to believe it did, all I can say is it could be anyone of us and you won't know it till you have to take the neck off of your guitar.

 

I didn't come here asking anything of Gibson, nor do I expect to ever see them acknowledge that it happened, but it is what it is. I'm not going to hang around here and argue about this. I'm going to accept it for what it is and move on. You people have a good day.

 

 

I'm sorry for all the trouble you have been caused. I will tell you this. At this point your guitar is a pile of firewood. If this person tries to do any more work on it it won't even be good enough for firewood.

 

You are right to not want or even expect anything from Gibson at this point. I doubt that they could even put this mess back together. I just wish this sort of thing didn't happen but it does and you are just his latest victim. Don't worry there will be more.

 

The good people that post here know a lot about Gibson as a company and many have even been to the factory to watch the guitars being built. They know what this man did to your guitar. Hell there are videos of the systematic destruction of your guitar.

 

The only way a fraud like this guy can exist is because of well intentioned folks like you. You sent a guitar to this man to get the neck fixed. Now you have a guitar that needs a complete refinish, a new neck block, and a new rib. As far as I can tell you still have a broken neck. By the time he gets thru with your neck you will need a new neck as well. It's your money and your guitar so all I, or anyone, can do is wish you good luck. No one wants to admit that they have been defrauded and scammed. The guitar pieces you now own are the proof.

 

I would refer you to an authorized repair facility close to where you live but I doubt that they would take it.

 

If you can get beyond this we would still like to have you post here.

 

I truthfully hope that you can get a J-45 and play it in good health. Keep us posted we would be interested.

[Dave F]

Just my opinion, but I would believe issues this extreme would be difficult to push through the assembly line. As with anything manufactured with the human element, things will be screwed up and sneaked passed the quality systems, especially with so many possible errors that would not be visible to a quick external visual inspection. As Hogeye mentioned, monetarily it's cheaper to dispose of a flawed instrument than having it slip through and be returned for repair.

 

Within the past year I have had two brand new Gibson's (from the same lot) with obvious internal flaws that should had not left the factory. I believe this was a layout error for this lot of instruments. One was returned for refund and the other was returned to the factory for repair which was performed very nicely in a timely manner. I've never had a problem with the service department at Bozeman.

 

I have a few Gibson's from 1994 and I feel they are very high quality instruments. One has the two-way rod and as mentioned before, if you don't know what you have and over tighten it when you think you're backing it off, you could cause some damage.

 

Hope it all turns out good for you.

 

 

 

 

 

[ksdaddy]

Well here's a Dove that was cheaper to saw in half than to fix!

 

 

 

I'm thinking about getting some legs for it and making it into a night stand. I'd have it face down because it has a pretty good flame on the back. If I could get a destroyed neck for a stem, maybe I'd build a lamp into it too. Hogeye? Anything in the storage unit? Buddy? Pal?

[slimt]

Well here's a Dove that was cheaper to saw in half than to fix!

 

 

 

I'm thinking about getting some legs for it and making it into a night stand. I'd have it face down because it has a pretty good flame on the back. If I could get a destroyed neck for a stem, maybe I'd build a lamp into it too. Hogeye? Anything in the storage unit? Buddy? Pal?

 

 

I remember seeing ones like that.. a garage with the rafters full. so many years ago... the Factory ... well boxes of cut off headstocks... a Bandsaw with carcasses all over..