onewilyfool Posted April 2, 2013 Author Share Posted April 2, 2013 The whole issue has annoyed me because we don't really have the Cafe thing here in Australia, and I thought it sounded like a wonderful alternative to playing acoustic blues to a bunch of drunks yelling for me to "Play the Doors!" in a bar...... BluesKing777. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 The wine and cheese in this thread just keeps going, and going, and going (must be Energizer batteries)! The simple fact of the matter is that the venue was NOT licensed for live entertainment. I'm sure the coffee house proprietor has an "occupancy" permit to be in the building. On top of that he has a "business" license to operate a coffee house in that building (usually a "special use permit"). If he expected to operate with musical entertainment (if you even play the radio over more than two speakers you need a BMI license), then he should have bought the proper licenses and permits. This is usually another payment to the city and/or county, in addition to the BMI OR ASCAP fees (I've never heard of any proprietor paying fees to three different "licensing" agencies as stated above). I will say it ONE MORE TIME: It's the venue's LEGAL responsibility to do this, NOT the musicians. Playing Gregorian Chants makes no difference. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT THE MUSICIANS UNION (AFM) AND THE TEAMSTERS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 The wine and cheese in this thread just keeps going, and going, and going (must be Energizer batteries)! The simple fact of the matter is that the venue was NOT licensed for live entertainment. I'm sure the coffee house proprietor has an "occupancy" permit to be in the building. On top of that he has a "business" license to operate a coffee house in that building (usually a "special use permit"). If he expected to operate with musical entertainment (if you even play the radio over more than two speakers you need a BMI license), then he should have bought the proper licenses and permits. This is usually another payment to the city and/or county, in addition to the BMI OR ASCAP fees (I've never heard of any proprietor paying fees to three different "licensing" agencies as stated above). I will say it ONE MORE TIME: It's the venue's LEGAL responsibility to do this, NOT the musicians. Playing Gregorian Chants makes no difference. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT THE MUSICIANS UNION (AFM) AND THE TEAMSTERS! And end end result is that the coffee shop's owner pays nothing, and Wily is out of a gig. I'm sure all the BMI and ASCAP members will split up the earnings! And don't get ME started on the musicians unions..... cost me a gig playing on the Beatles' Candlestick concert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 The wine and cheese in this thread just keeps going, and going, and going (must be Energizer batteries)! The simple fact of the matter is that the venue was NOT licensed for live entertainment. I'm sure the coffee house proprietor has an "occupancy" permit to be in the building. On top of that he has a "business" license to operate a coffee house in that building (usually a "special use permit"). If he expected to operate with musical entertainment (if you even play the radio over more than two speakers you need a BMI license), then he should have bought the proper licenses and permits. This is usually another payment to the city and/or county, in addition to the BMI OR ASCAP fees (I've never heard of any proprietor paying fees to three different "licensing" agencies as stated above). I will say it ONE MORE TIME: It's the venue's LEGAL responsibility to do this, NOT the musicians. Playing Gregorian Chants makes no difference. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT THE MUSICIANS UNION (AFM) AND THE TEAMSTERS! In regards to a proprietor paying fees to more than one of the PRO companies-----On the ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC sites they make it very plain and clear that their agreements cover only the songs, songwriters, and publishers that are registered with that particular PRO. SESAC, ASCAP, and BMI are three separate PROs. Each company represents different songwriters, composers, publishers, copyright owners and licenses only the works of its own members. Licenses with ASCAP and SESAC do not give you the right to use the copyrighted music of BMI and its members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 And don't get ME started on the musicians unions..... cost me a gig playing on the Beatles' Candlestick concert! The music industry is full of unions. When the group I worked with was based in NYC, I couldn't touch the mixing board in the recording studio--all NABET (National Association of Broadcast Engineers and Technicians)--despite the fact that I mixed all the gigs we did in the city, as well as on the road, as well as all our in-house demo recording. The union owned the studios, and probably still does. I'm hoping Bob Birdwell will give us the full story sometime on Peter Wheat getting shut out of the Beatles' gig at Candlestick, which was a concert of remarkable importance. That has to be one of the all-time great brushes with fame. Much better story than the teenaged pro musician getting kicked out of high school for his long hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 I'm hoping Bob Birdwell will give us the full story sometime on Peter Wheat getting shut out of the Beatles' gig at Candlestick, which was a concert of remarkable importance. That has to be one of the all-time great brushes with fame. Much better story than the teenaged pro musician getting kicked out of high school for his long hair. You KNOW the story, right Nick? It's all here: Peter Wheat & The Breadmen But if you don't wanna go to the site, here's the story, in response to a question by a web site of our Manager at the time: 60s: Is it true that Peter Wheat & The Breadmen were scheduled to perform with The Beatles at the Candlestick performance? If so, what happened that cancelled this out? BC: Yes, it is true. It was a conflict between two Musician's Unions: Local 6, where Candlestick is located, and Local 510 San Leandro, where Peter Wheat held membership. Local 6 insisted that one of their bands be in the concert or no one from any other Bay Area local could be. Peter Wheat had previously done a few shows and benefit concerts for KYA, the radio station who presented the Beatles Candlestick concert. Everyone but the two rival locals tried very hard to resolve the unending conflict, however, neither local would give in. What a story it would have been to share with the grandkids but I guess it just wasn't meant to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soao Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 As others suggest, there a zillion tunes that are not copywrited. You might already being performing some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 You can easily put together a few sets of traditional music mixed with originals. You don't play many gigs in the states, do you? Aye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 You KNOW the story, right Nick? It's all here: Peter Wheat & The Breadmen But if you don't wanna go to the site, here's the story, in response to a question by a web site of our Manager at the time: 60s: Is it true that Peter Wheat & The Breadmen were scheduled to perform with The Beatles at the Candlestick performance? If so, what happened that cancelled this out? BC: Yes, it is true. It was a conflict between two Musician's Unions: Local 6, where Candlestick is located, and Local 510 San Leandro, where Peter Wheat held membership. Local 6 insisted that one of their bands be in the concert or no one from any other Bay Area local could be. Peter Wheat had previously done a few shows and benefit concerts for KYA, the radio station who presented the Beatles Candlestick concert. Everyone but the two rival locals tried very hard to resolve the unending conflict, however, neither local would give in. What a story it would have been to share with the grandkids but I guess it just wasn't meant to be. I know you are probably tired of hearing this, but did you get your dough? BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Take your National and do your Bluesman act out the front of the cafe, OWF, keep your runnin' shoes ready and give 'em a swipe with all 9 1/2 pounds of it if anyone gives you grief from the union, ab and c's, zzz's. See if they can find you then! BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 You KNOW the story, right Nick? It's all here: Peter Wheat & The Breadmen But if you don't wanna go to the site, here's the story, in response to a question by a web site of our Manager at the time: 60s: Is it true that Peter Wheat & The Breadmen were scheduled to perform with The Beatles at the Candlestick performance? If so, what happened that cancelled this out? BC: Yes, it is true. It was a conflict between two Musician's Unions: Local 6, where Candlestick is located, and Local 510 San Leandro, where Peter Wheat held membership. Local 6 insisted that one of their bands be in the concert or no one from any other Bay Area local could be. Peter Wheat had previously done a few shows and benefit concerts for KYA, the radio station who presented the Beatles Candlestick concert. Everyone but the two rival locals tried very hard to resolve the unending conflict, however, neither local would give in. What a story it would have been to share with the grandkids but I guess it just wasn't meant to be. It WAS mean't to be..it just wasn't allowed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Bill Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Another reason why I let my union membership lapse after 18 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 And don't get ME started on the musicians unions..... cost me a gig playing on the Beatles' Candlestick concert![/b] OK, you started it! Years ago my band was booked to backup Chuck Berry at a big outdoor "free" concert in downtown St. Louis. It was the kickoff gala for the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra's season featuring the works of Beethoven, and they had hired Mr. "Roll Over Beethoven" to headline the concert. As many of you may know (probably from the movie "Hail, Hail, Rock and Roll"), the promoter has to furnish Chuck a backup band. The morning of the gig I get a call from the promoter asking about our union membership and affiliation (I've been in "arrears" since 1980). Seems AFM Local 2-197 wanted to make a stink. The problem (theirs, not mine) was that the event was for the benefit of the St. Louis Symphony (musicians), which are about the only musicians in this town that actually (have to) maintain union membership. It took about 30 minutes for them to realize that didn't want to shoot themselves in the foot. We even had teamsters waiting for us to arrive to unload our equipment and tote it on stage. OH, and by the way, playing with Chuck Berry is something I wouldn't wish on anybody.... but I survived it and put it on my resume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 OK, you started it! Years ago my band was booked to backup Chuck Berry at a big outdoor "free" concert in downtown St. Louis. It was the kickoff gala for the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra's season featuring the works of Beethoven, and they had hired Mr. "Roll Over Beethoven" to headline the concert. As many of you may know (probably from the movie "Hail, Hail, Rock and Roll"), the promoter has to furnish Chuck a backup band. The morning of the gig I get a call from the promoter asking about our union membership and affiliation (I've been in "arrears" since 1980). Seems AFM Local 2-197 wanted to make a stink. The problem (theirs, not mine) was that the event was for the benefit of the St. Louis Symphony (musicians), which are about the only musicians in this town that actually (have to) maintain union membership. It took about 30 minutes for them to realize that didn't want to shoot themselves in the foot. We even had teamsters waiting for us to arrive to unload our equipment and tote it on stage. OH, and by the way, playing with Chuck Berry is something I wouldn't wish on anybody.... but I survived it and put it on my resume. Larry.... great story! We were booked with Chuck Berry in San Francisco in 1966. We didn't back him, but were on the bill. I was not privy to his backup band's arrangements, but I recall him being....um......er....ah....... let's just say, he played his music HIS way! I also dealt with him years later when his motor home caught fire..... his insurance company refused to pay for his losses because he had the motor home insured as a personal vehicle, but was using it for touring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 I know you are probably tired of hearing this, but did you get your dough? BluesKing777. Oh yeah....we got ALL the jokes..... which was the beauty of the name..... it engendered those kind of comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 It WAS mean't to be..it just wasn't allowed to be. We were given tickets to go to Candlestick for that concert, (I think each ticket was $7.00). The Army Band from The Presidio in San Francisco played the National Anthem, (they were Local 6 members!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 3, 2013 Author Share Posted April 3, 2013 Dan...he's just trying to get a rise out of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Dan...he's just trying to get a rise out of you! At my age, he'd best use Viagra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 At my age, he'd best use Viagra. Well, that's a swell idea!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperland Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Larry.... great story! We were booked with Chuck Berry in San Francisco in 1966. We didn't back him, but were on the bill. I was not privy to his backup band's arrangements, but I recall him being....um......er....ah....... let's just say, he played his music HIS way! I also dealt with him years later when his motor home caught fire..... his insurance company refused to pay for his losses because he had the motor home insured as a personal vehicle, but was using it for touring! After reading your reply, all I could think about was Chuck going at it with Keith. If you haven't seen this video, you gotta watch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Back to the original problem - what if you had a roadie like Dave Batista, OWF? Do you think the officials would be so (Official)? BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Actually I can't speak outside the U.S., but it appears that ASCAP and BMI even do go after venues with only the singer songwriter who does no covers. How? The rationale is simple and bulletproof: You can't prove you're not using licensed music. You can tell it to the judge. What judge? Well... have your attorney talk to the ASCAP/BMI attorney and see how the game gets played. Since the attorney fees obviously will be far more than licensing something that doesn't even need to be licensed, the small venue operator has two choices: Pay or that's the day the music dies. I hadda get into the realities of this stuff a few years ago. Bottom line is that as said before, the commissioned sales/bully persons function more or less like the mob always has with protection rackets. Don't count, either, on pre 1900 work being "public domain" according to ASCAP/BMI. They have virtually every known "folk" piece and oodles of classical material listed on their "copyrighted" lists. That ain't "right?" Okay, tell it to the judge. Oh - you can't. Have your lawyer talk to ASCAP/BMI lawyers about the litigation, discovery, motions hearings, motions and... until then functionally yes, you're guilty until proven innocent and ... don't worry, you'll be broke before that's even possible. More... Check out whether any of the music of live joints is on a song/author list. Nope. Then ask how radio, tv, etc., has their license fees "distributed." Well, it's claimed to be done by various secret "sampling" methods. Assuming that's even true, the bottom line is that only the material that is played a lot on a lot of media will draw much, if anything, in royalties. Your moonshine indie metal rock CDs or mpgs actually may be an excuse for the ASCAP/BMI guys to do the challenge to a joint playing your material and if it's paid, the cash goes to ... the established artists with the correct "sampling" results, not the folks who wrote and performed. Historically this stuff arose when music was getting published on paper, then on "records." The publishing moguls got basic laws through Congress that seemed to make sense at the time and with the available and imagined future technology. The few companies "publishing" this stuff actually got some good out of it but... Somewhere around WWII, it became obvious that ASCAP/BMI were "too big to fail." No challenge to the two has succeeded either against their Congressional lobbyists nor in court - largely because it became a matter of mostly dollars in Congress and, in the latter case, questions whether a person with enough cash challenging the two had legal status for the challenge. Bottom line: The big guys win, the little guys lose. P.S. I dropped my union membership in the late '60s after similar games. A few years ago I tried to get info on the two nearest union locals - both a day's drive or more from here - and go no response whatsoever. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Free Bird!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 I just wanted to finalize this thread and put this to rest. Playing this gig was one of the best learning experiences of my guitar playing career!......I learned to focus, play through noise and other disturbances, made a lot of new friends, and it was the BEST practice method I've ever utilized. There is NOTHI NG better than trying out a new song in front of folks to ee your strengths and weaknesses!! Like I said, unbelievable learning experience....now to move on to some other things......recording, writing....etc.....many other things to do musically. I'm not bitter, but disagree with the process, this doesn't really promote anything except an over reaching of power....Truly, we have the best government money can buy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I just wanted to finalize this thread and put this to rest. Playing this gig was one of the best learning experiences of my guitar playing career!......I learned to focus, play through noise and other disturbances, made a lot of new friends, and it was the BEST practice method I've ever utilized. There is NOTHI NG better than trying out a new song in front of folks to ee your strengths and weaknesses!! Like I said, unbelievable learning experience....now to move on to some other things......recording, writing....etc.....many other things to do musically. I'm not bitter, but disagree with the process, this doesn't really promote anything except an over reaching of power....Truly, we have the best government money can buy! Nicely said, Wily. Some things are unfortunately done to extremes. "Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." John Lennon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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