zombywoof Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Like Guth, I have never subjected the music loving world to my voice. I prefer to take my place behind those who can get a song across. I guess you can always work out arrangements of "Danny Boy" and others. I only ran into this copyright thing once back in Mississippi. A favorite musician's hangout got tagged when the owner of another small club complained. The solution was all of the players got together and threw a benefit to help raise money to go toward a blanket license. Joke was, of course, the benefit violated the copyright law. Somehow, though, it seemed fitting. Brings to mind a Jefferson Airplane show I once went to. Gracie was up there telling us that the people we needed to revolt against were right there up on the stage as we had to pay to get in to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Bill Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 A band I was in in the early 80s went through this with ASCAP. A man sat and watched us for about a week, and evidently wrote down the title of every song we played. After that he went to the owner with a list and said all the songs on it were ASCAP tunes and he would be subject to fines if we continued to perform them without paying him. The owner (a small but mighty guy from Switzerland) threw him out. Only EMI and BMI tunes were played from then on out. I still have one of the he signs from the bandstand that plainly states WE PLAY NO ASCAP MUSIC!! The owner was also in default of his juke box tax at the time which is why the "mole" showed up in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I spend a fair amount of time giving presentations on this topic to law schools, university classes, and arts high schools. Indeed, I did this in an arts high school just this past Wednesday. So, to the point at hand: venues offer music, that (hopefully) brings in business, and if the venues don't buy the (modestly priced) licenses composers are forced to give away their compositions for free. JT, thanks for putting this in perspective. ASCAP distributed some $800 million in royalties to its members last year, and claims to do this on an overhead of about 10-12%, which is pretty efficient for an NFP. We always think of this in terms of music by big-name artists who make tons of money from performances and royalties, but I suspect the vast majority of ASCAP members are songwriters and/or performers who struggle to make a living in a pretty cut-throat industry. At the same time, ASCAP has come under a lot of criticism for the heavy-handed ways in which it sometimes protects its members' intellectual property. Let's just say that there are plenty of arguments to be made on both sides of this, and there is a fine line between the legitimate use of protected property, and avoidance of paying for that use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I never understood why I had to pay these fees for the artists that wrote the music to perform it. A few years ago I was contracted to provide PA services and backup guitar for Michael "Supe" Granda of the "Ozark Mountain Daredevils". The event was a free-to-the-public educational lecture, book signing, and music presentation. About three days before the event the organizer called me up and asked what I knew about dealing with BMI, for they had received THE CALL. So the issue came up about having to buy an "Event License" from BMI for "Supe" to play HIS OWN music. The organizer paid the money so the event could go on as advertised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 A few years ago I was contracted to provide PA services and backup guitar for Michael "Supe" Granda of the "Ozark Mountain Daredevils". The event was a free-to-the-public educational lecture, book signing, and music presentation. About three days before the event the organizer called me up and asked what I knew about dealing with BMI, for they had received THE CALL. So the issue came up about having to buy an "Event License" from BMI for "Supe" to play HIS OWN music. The organizer paid the money so the event could go on as advertised. BMI gets its cut, and part of that goes back to the owner of the IP in the form of a royalty. No free lunch here: it's a two-way street for the artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 BMI gets its cut, and part of that goes back to the owner of the IP in the form of a royalty. No free lunch here: it's a two-way street for the artist. Exactly. And this is because Michael "Supe" Granda voluntarily joined BMI. Without the PROs, there would be no mechanism for songwriters to receive royalties for the public performances of their compositions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherofpearl Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Sorry to hear about that! People should mind there buisness and not sweat the small stuff. For all he knew that could have been your bread and butter and you have 5 kids at home. If he had such an issue why not talk to YOU about it instead of going and ratting you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 If he had such an issue why not talk to YOU about it instead of going and ratting you out. I'll tell you one thing, as a performing musician I'm glad that the fees and licenses are the legal responsibility of the "Buyer" (venue owner, promoter, etc). Can you imagine if your local BMI/ASCAP bird-dog came up to you after a gig at the corner tavern and said "great show, now YOU owe me $50." These licenses and fees are nothing new. There are those who try to skirt the rules, and those who are just ignorant of them. As with most things in life, if you play by the rules, everybody leaves you alone. Whether you like the rules or not is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 SOTTs. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 Well, you know, guitar playing and singing are my hobby. I always refer to myself as a hobby player. So it was a lot of fun, a little sad to see it go away, and I understand, rules are rules......and I guess I was ignorant of them rules. I was playing without pay (unless you consider free coffee= pay), the owner wasn't charging customers, so it seemed pretty innocent. I can see charging fees when there are tickets, and the performer is getting paid, it just seems like a shakedown in this case. I guess the painful part is that someone anonymously turned me in, seems kind of cowardly. If they had talked to me or the owner first, without sicking the dogs on us with strong arm tactics, it might have gone down more amicably. Just sayin'....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 When words fail.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 And this one....lol.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 I just got a birthday party gig....lol...the lord giveth, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeljohnr Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I just got a birthday party gig....lol...the lord giveth, etc. Maybe gigs like that are less aggravation than a pub gig where some suit is going to sit there with a notepad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Ive bought the record..but I dont have the right too sing or play it. When something is revolting..revolt. Musicians giving a free service..and free advertizing for those songs..which benefits publisher/Songwriter..and they want yet more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherofpearl Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I'll tell you one thing, as a performing musician I'm glad that the fees and licenses are the legal responsibility of the "Buyer" (venue owner, promoter, etc). Can you imagine if your local BMI/ASCAP bird-dog came up to you after a gig at the corner tavern and said "great show, now YOU owe me $50." These licenses and fees are nothing new. There are those who try to skirt the rules, and those who are just ignorant of them. As with most things in life, if you play by the rules, everybody leaves you alone. Whether you like the rules or not is irrelevant. Not at all what I meant. He could have went to owf to let him know what was going on not for a cheque. Just seems like a flipping coward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 Here is a VERY good article from CSM about this situation......I guess it's getting worse......three agencies with their fingers in the pie....and they even strong-arm venues that play original music with threats of lawsuits, etc. http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Music/2009/0109/p14s01-almp.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Here is a VERY good article from CSM about this situation......I guess it's getting worse......three agencies with their fingers in the pie....and they even strong-arm venues that play original music with threats of lawsuits, etc. http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Music/2009/0109/p14s01-almp.html Not sure how or if the situation has changed since that CSM article was published four years ago, but it sums things up pretty accurately. It's clearly much easier for the PRO to go after the hosting venue than the individual performer, at least until that performer begins recording and releasing other people's music. This is not a new problem: it has been around forever, which is why ASCAP and the other PRO's were created. Once you start writing and publishing a lot of your own material, your thoughts about intellectual property rights may change. I suspect there are writer/performers on this forum who are members of one of the PRO's, but they've been silent on this here. You don't give up your copyright when you join a PRO. You just give them the right to collect performance fees on your behalf, which you would struggle to do independently. There is good as well as bad in this system. The fact that there are three competing organizations helps keep fees within reason in many cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeljohnr Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Here is a VERY good article from CSM about this situation......I guess it's getting worse......three agencies with their fingers in the pie....and they even strong-arm venues that play original music with threats of lawsuits, etc. http://www.csmonitor...14s01-almp.html And this is only one of the reasons why the music industry, as it exists today is doomed to fail unless it seriously evolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 Well, I've had some time to reflect....and I think I will spend some more time recording, writing my own songs.....maybe making some videos, my playing days aren't over...lol...just transforming..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Well, I've had some time to reflect....and I think I will spend some more time recording, writing my own songs.....maybe making some videos, my playing days aren't over...lol...just transforming..... Remember, too, that there are a huge number of songs in the public domain, many of which have been recorded by some of our favorite contemporary artists. Think songs like "House of the Rising Sun", "St. James Infirmary", and a million more. If a song was first published prior to 1923, it is almost certainly in the public domain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 . Over the last decade or so, BMI/ASCAP absolutely killed the live music scene in my area. There once was all kinds of venues with live performers - coffee shops, restaurants, bars, etc. These days there's barely a handful of places featuring live music. They even hunted down a group at a local church forcing them to drop some of their selections. The venue owners won't pay the fees and the musicians can't afford them. BTW, that thing about playing a radio - they'll come after you for money if more than a certain amount of people are listening. Certainly a confounding situation. The IP owners should be compensated, but IMO they're missing out on additional earnings by making the fees too high. Just to show you how ridiculous these people get, I'm sure some of you'll remember this gem - Ascap Asks Royalties From Girl Scouts, and Regrets It . . . . . . . By ELISABETH BUMILLER . . Published: December 17, 1996 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 If you truly want to see the wanton greed of these companies, consider this-----I know numerous people who sincerely want to be professional songwriters. They're in NSAI and go to 4-5 day long song camps throughout the year. Several of them have joined ASCAP. Several others decided to wait. We know now that those who are members of ASCAP cannot perform their own songs in venues that allow only original music, because they unknowingly gave ASCAP some rights over their music when they joined. One of them was my often-duo-partner, he doesn't join me now because he can't play his own songs unless the venue is already paying the fees. However, he can sit and accompany me on my songs. I'm all for the fair and just application of copyright rules, but much of this is nothing but greed. Another thing to understand is that if you or I join Ascap (for example), that doesn't mean we are going to make money off of songs being played or law suits. That's a totally false idea that is floated-around. Only a relatively small and select group of names get anything from the law suits and fees being paid. If ASCAP won a billion dollar court case against some business, you and I are not going to see one penny of it, unless we happen to be someone who has sold tens-of-millions of albums, and that might not even do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperland Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 If you are performing in Europe you could legally cover "Love me Do" because it is now public domain, at least in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aster1 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 This is all an interesting subject. We sell "Music & Video servers" for Distributed Audio & Video systems in homes. We can do everything except for "ripping" the clients own CD's or DVD's for them onto their server. Our industry has had Integrators get in trouble with these yo-yo's for helping a client out and putting their own music collection onto the server. And you're right about the iPod or Sat radio w/o a lic. fee for sure in a business. You really aren't allowed to play Pandora w/o having a commercial paid lic. from Pandora either. In fact, we're not even allowed to play a movie to demo a HDTV or Theater projector for a client. Disney is the worst about coming after you for that. You need a lic. fee/yr or event. Aster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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