onewilyfool Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 How about this....The MUSICIAN gets a $25 "license" that enables him to play anywhere, The permit follows HIM or HER to whatever venue they play at. Then if the royalty police confront the player, all they have to do is flash the card....simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Back on the horse OWF - there must be trad. stuff to find. Then blend in a few of your own - one about your wife, one about your guitars and one about the Board. . . "Don't let it bring you down" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . N.Y. 1970 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Further to this discussion on copyrights, licenses, and royalties, this is an interesting read: My link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 "Why can't we all just get along?"...Rodney King, 12:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 The fellow above, michaeljohnr hit the nail on the head. How can people putting covers on You Tube get away with this OR, people that put up professinally produced and distributed videos get away with it. It is evident the horse is out of the barn regarding YouTube so why can it not be the same for musician's playing covers in a bar. It is it a two sided crappy situation. I am a singer/songwriter and I am registered with BMI so that if I ever get a tune published or recorded I get the fruits of my labor for writing and demoing the song. Now, that ain't happened yet, but for me, for what it's worth, if someone records one of my songs and puts it on their CD, I want my cut of the royalties AND if that artist plays that song in concert, yes I want my cut of the the performance royalties. However, if anyone like you Mr. OWF ever play my songs in a bar, at home, or a party for friends, I consider that THE highest compliment anyone could ever pay me; that compliment is enough payment for me and it means a lot! A whole lot. So OWF, if you want to go out and play you are welcomed to play any song I've written and if you contact me I'll send you the tunes. I would be honored. Michael King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodehopper Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Well, I've had some time to reflect....and I think I will spend some more time recording, writing my own songs.....maybe making some videos, my playing days aren't over...lol...just transforming..... OWF....the new Fretkiller. Can't wait to see some videos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneS Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 However, if anyone like you Mr. OWF ever play my songs in a bar, at home, or a party for friends, I consider that THE highest compliment anyone could ever pay me; that compliment is enough payment for me and it means a lot! A whole lot. So OWF, if you want to go out and play you are welcomed to play any song I've written and if you contact me I'll send you the tunes. I would be honored. Michael King Ditto! I respect the law; I understand the legal/ethics of the situation and would hope that, if ever someone were to record a song of mine and then go perform it--yes, I would be glad about a payment system, however inconsequential the amount coming to me. The for-profit small bars, coffee-houses who give us a place to play live? (Not even talking about places that charge a cover.) Well, a small annual fee is one thing; separate annual fees to--what, three?--separate thug-enforcers can be too-hard a thing. So the move toward smaller fees or exemptions makes sense, from a free-market standpoint. perhaps. Either way, I agree with Michael that if my musical friends wanted to play any of my songs out in public--no higher compliment, and I'll send you whatever you need to do it. After all, although fees are understandably necessary for the use of the hall, nobody really owns the fire-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Does someone playing someone else's song in a bar or coffee shop really take anything away from the artist? I think it exposes someone's work to a greater audience, which can then result in the artist finding a bigger audience. Just like most things, the 'problem' isn't really a problem, and the 'fix' is a problem. I've had my work bootlegged... I contacted the person who did it, and thanked her for recognizing something she liked enough to record it. Just where will we find the next generation of musicians when they're restricted from performing in public? It's like the child labor laws/workers compensation laws/tax laws..etc...etc...etc... have resulted in a whole generation of 'kids' who have never worked, and therefore don't know how to treat an employer, and we wonder why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 Michael, Anne...thanks for the support, I hear you, and am in total agreement with your positions. This felt more like a shakedown for money, than anything that really benefits a composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 One nice thing about playing originals, rather than covers, is that if you forget the words or mess up the bridge... no one knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
struma6 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Devils advocate here... The artist who wrote the song is due their slice of any $ the song generates, as is the publishing company. Starving artist BS aside there is music and there is the music business. It all sounds trite and petty when they lower the boom on some coffee shop but it isn't wrong. Why wouldn't the coffee shop owner pay the $375 a year??? He already gets FREE music from the performers, he should step up and cover that expense. I go to the local coffee shop just to hear the local folks playing and I'm not alone by any means. I write and if I found out my stuff was being played in a commercial venue, and a little coffee shop IS a commercial venue, I would like to get my scheckles, paltry as they may be, a few here, a few there and it adds up. I know it sounds a-hole-ish but it is, in fact, right. The coffee shop owner is the real problem, not the agencies who protect the writers interests. He's getting FREE entertainment in his place. And he refuses to pay a little over $1 a day to be able to exploit the players willing to do it free? Shame on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 One nice thing about playing originals, rather than covers, is that if you forget the words or mess up the bridge... no one knows. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Many coffeehouses are barely scratching-by in today's economy. To expect them to pay all these fees is ridiculous. This is not just you send them a check and it's over. This is a very legal and technically involved contract. To begin with, there's far more than "a fee." For example, if the music being played is licensed under ASCAP, then having a license with BMI is not going to do you much good. Likewise, an ASCAP license doesn't cover music copyrighted by BMI or someone else. Also, who the artist is licensed with comes into play. Regarding the artist, don't for a second believe that if you are signed-up with BMI, etc. that you are going to make money from them. The idea is for them to make money from you. They are in existence to protect and especially makes tons of money off of names like The Stones, Dylan, Cash, The Beatles, Beach Boys, and so on. Do you really believe they give a rat's butt about whither or not some guy I don't know steals one of my songs off the internet and performs it at a bar in Seattle? These companies are in business to make money. They protect the copyrighted material of famous people because there's a fortune in it. They're not doing this because they want to be good Americans/etc. For the "casual" members of these organizations, what have they done for you? If your music is on the internet and it's got any artistic value to it, chances are someone has already used part of it in their own work and these copyright companies will do nothing about it because unless you are a major player in the music industry, they're not interested. There is not just "a fee." There is a "live music" fee. Oh, and do you play radio music in your business? There's a fee for that too. Do you have a jukebox for background music? There's a fee for that also. Do you play music in the staff lounge? Do you play music videos on a screen? There's a fee for that too. Do you play music on your telephone when you put someone on hold? There's another one. Also, how many people will your coffeehouse/bar hold? The number of customers also impacts the fee. Also, do you play music at your business that is off of an IPOD with songs you recorded for yourself? Are you going to have any special events at your business where "live music" or radio music will be used? What are your business hours? How many hours per day will you be using radio music? Also, if you want to have an "original music" establishment, you need to find out if the performer/s is registered with one of these companies, because then you need that license for the performer to play his own songs. This whole thing is like opening-up a can of worms. And unless you are a really serious and talented individual and you're selling lots of material, you're just giving them your money for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Bill Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 I have found in my 56 years of playing bars, clubs etc etc...in most instances...... people don't want to hear original music. They want to hear some top 40 tune or "oldie" they heard on the way home from their 40 hr work week. You might be able to slip one in here or there...with the other stuff they already know and can sing along to. Be careful and you may get away with it. Granted a coffee house gig is a totally different animal...I'm talking mainstream venues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Totally correct, Bill. It kind of scares me to be in a room with people who will actually sit through an entire set of my music...lol.....Roadhouses, concert halls, state fairs, whatever is a big mainstream venue...they have most every license you can imagine. And as far as coffeehouses and small bars are concerned there are definitely those that try to play by their own rules. I hope they get caught. BUT, venues that want to play "original music only" that is performed by the individual who wrote the song shouldn't be harassed by ASCAP, BMI, or any of their contemporaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I have found in my 56 years of playing bars, clubs etc etc...in most instances...... people don't want to hear original music. They want to hear some top 40 tune or "oldie" they heard on the way home from their 40 hr work week. You might be able to slip one in here or there...with the other stuff they already know and can sing along to. Be careful and you may get away with it. Granted a coffee house gig is a totally different animal...I'm talking mainstream venues. I'm in total agreement....and MP's points are dead on too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mking Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Actually, if I found out someone was playing one of my songs in their set list I would bust my butt to hear them just to see how they did the song. I bet if you told John Hiatt or Lyle Lovett you heard someone doing a tune or two of theirs they could care less. BUT, the publisher, that is a different story!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I may be in the minority here but I think you do have to pay the piper. The coffee shop owner should just be a mensch and fork over the dough. This is a part of doing business. Otherwise it's stealing from the original artists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR GIBS Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Here is what I think, based on the fact that I am on the other side of the world. I am an amateur singer -songwriter. I have two singer-songwriters friends and we play in a band. We perform our own songs - words&music live. We prefere to do it unplugged - we consider it's the best way for the public to hear our voices & guitars. If I was a cover player and singer I would not stop doing it because of some laws and rules. I would continue to do it because I want to. And because it is my rule. I would find som door in some law and I would keep on. If I want to sing and play noone can stop me. Most important in the case is that I want to do it - my rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I think that if all these 'original' artist truly believe this paying theory, they should look back at their own careers as struggling or amateur artist and calculate how many times they covered songs and did not pay fees and make a nice contribution to the estates of all the artist that molded them. Like SRV? pay his estate and then pay Lonnie Mack, then pay Chuck Berry, then pay Django Reinhardt and so on. Otherwise is this just a lot of BS to squeeze a few pennies from the everyday guy just going out and enjoying his hobby. Amateur artist should be exempt from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I think that if all these 'original' artist truly believe this paying theory, they should look back at their own careers as struggling or amateur artist and calculate how many times they covered songs and did not pay fees and make a nice contribution to the estates of all the artist that molded them. Like SRV? pay his estate and then pay Lonnie Mack, then pay Chuck Berry, then pay Django Reinhardt and so on. Otherwise is this just a lot of BS to squeeze a few pennies from the everyday guy just going out and enjoying his hobby. Amateur artist should be exempt from this. I think you're right, Dave. I'm still have trouble trying to determine exactly what the 'artist' is getting cheated out of by someone playing their stuff in a bar or coffee shop. It'd be different if somone was recording someone else's song and selling thousands of records. Again, BMI, etc. may well be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, (keeping with the Easter theme!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I have watched the thread with interest over the last few days and it appears that it is nothing to do with OWF's guitar playing/singing/performing old Beatles songs etc and just to do with the cheapskate Cafe owner not paying his dues? Just get another gig at a cafe down the road that has paid the license, OWF. The whole issue has annoyed me because we don't really have the Cafe thing here in Australia, and I thought it sounded like a wonderful alternative to playing acoustic blues to a bunch of drunks yelling for me to "Play the Doors!" in a bar...... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Some of those requested songs should allow us to send the artist a bill for having to play his lame song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnt Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I have watched the thread with interest over the last few days and it appears that it is nothing to do with OWF's guitar playing/singing/performing old Beatles songs etc and just to do with the cheapskate Cafe owner not paying his dues? Just get another gig at a cafe down the road that has paid the license, OWF. The whole issue has annoyed me because we don't really have the Cafe thing here in Australia, and I thought it sounded like a wonderful alternative to playing acoustic blues to a bunch of drunks yelling for me to "Play the Doors!" in a bar...... BluesKing777. With you BK We too don't have the coffee shop thing ( unless you count Maccy Ds) but we do have a diminishing pub culture for bands Surely the onus has to be on he bar owner to protect the artist in every way from his having the right to play Please please me ". to his potentially getting electrocuted on stage. Unplugged eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 You can easily put together a few sets of traditional music mixed with originals. When a song gets played, the writer should get paid. Everyone else working in the arts gets paid for the use of their intellectual property - it shouldn't be any different for songwriters. Remember the daycare that got shut down by Disney for painting Mickey Mouse on the walls? Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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