My cafe Gigs are NOT over!!!!!

[onewilyfool]

Well, last week, apparently, someone came into the coffee house and noticed I was plaing Beatle songs, James taylor etc., and COMPLAINED to some company who enforces copyrights on songs, and the enforcement agency contacted the owner to tell him that my playing was in violation of the copyright law. In addition, they told him that it was against the law for him to be piping music from his iPod through his sterero system, They later sent a cease and desist letter demanding he stop the Ipod music and my playing. He could play music from the radio, or Pandora, but not iPod. I could play original music or un-copyrighted music, like traditional songs, but NO copyright material. HOWEVER, if the owner would pay $374 per year to a fund which disperses royalties, THEN we could play Ipod and guitar??????!!!!!! So, my cafe gig career is over...lol.....I'm not coughing up $374 for the right to play for free, and the owner isn't going to do it either...so, as soon as it began, it is over....lol.....my 15 minutes of fame are over!!!! If anyone knows a way around this...please let me know!!! In any case, it was a fun run,and I really learned a lot! Thanks for all YOUR support in the forum!

[duluthdan]

Where I used to play, back in Duluth, MN ASCAP had a very strong arm and presence, you could not play "covers" so it was write or steal stuff you could make your own, or no-go. Lots of good local sondwriting came out of that forced aproach, wasn't always fun, but thats the way it was. It really is up to the venue owner to follow the rules, and pay the calculated ASCAP fees, or enforce the copyright stance. Not saying its right or wrong, it just is. I am amazed how many venues have no clue about ASCAP.

[davenumber2]

Whoever complained about it sounds like a royal ******.

[livemusic]

Well, last week, apparently, someone came into the coffee house and noticed I was plaing Beatle songs, James taylor etc., and COMPLAINED to some company who enforces copyrights on songs, and the enforcement agency contacted the owner to tell him that my playing was in violation of the copyright law. In addition, they told him that it was against the law for him to be piping music from his iPod through his sterero system, They later sent a cease and desist letter demanding he stop the Ipod music and my playing. He could play music from the radio, or Pandora, but not iPod. I could play original music or un-copyrighted music, like traditional songs, but NO copyright material. HOWEVER, if the owner would pay $374 per year to a fund which disperses royalties, THEN we could play Ipod and guitar??????!!!!!! So, my cafe gig career is over...lol.....I'm not coughing up $374 for the right to play for free, and the owner isn't going to do it either...so, as soon as it began, it is over....lol.....my 15 minutes of fame are over!!!! If anyone knows a way around this...please let me know!!! In any case, it was a fun run,and I really learned a lot! Thanks for all YOUR support in the forum!

 

I understand it sounds "wrong" but it's due to copyrights. There is no way around it, been that way for decades, the venue is responsible and just now got caught. One way to look at it is that if they can't afford $374/yr, it's not much of a business. Not making light of it, just pointing at that $374 is really not much of a fee. And, of course, the venue can say "originals only" and it costs nothing. Write some songs! Or, go to a place that pays their license fees.

[livemusic]

Whoever complained about it sounds like a royal ******.

 

It could have been an agent. They do this all the time.

[stein]

Shout this out to the masses!

 

Poeple NEED to know this crap actually happens, who it happens to, and what "we" get in return.

 

Seriously, pisses me off to no end.

 

I realize it ain't in the best interest to fight it or ignore the "warning", but it sure would be nice. At least to stand up to it, and have those who enforce or do this stuff have to stand up and say, "I'm the one. It's me. This is what I'm doing and why".

 

I think the way it is now, it allows those who are in the shadows to remain in the shadows. For all we know, the threats might not even be legal.

[QuestionMark]

This goes on all the time. The answer...turn it into a legendary experience for yourself and simply search for another gig.

 

Its the BMI and/or ASCAP police thing. Where BMI and ASCAP once served to protect the small musician by ensuring they get royalties for their songs being played at places that make money off of their songs being played...they've saturated their marketplace. They have every radio, tv, major music internet site, large venue, and banquet hall that holds weddings paying them to be able to have someone or a DJ play Mustang Sally or I Saw Her Standing There or whatever...interestingly, all with royalties that benefit the major musicians who don't even need the money. So, for the past 5-10 years they've been targeting the small venue that has singer-songwriters. As if the indie musician is packing the house (people come or don't come to these places anyhow, no matter who is playing). Plus, the publishers or writers of the songs actually like these small venues because the know the indies actually buy the music they play and you playing another's song at a small venue is great publicity for the original artist (which translates to more sales for them.)

 

But, what happens is BMI and/or ASCAP hire commissioned people to find technical violations and then the commissioned representatives get paid a portion of what they collect from the venue they sign up. These reps know the scare tactics to use (ie. BMI and ASCAP have major abilities to pursue legal action due to their size while a small little venue that is operating on a small margin if any simply can't afford to risk having to legally fight BMI/ASCAP. So some pay the fee. Some don't.

 

I know a number small little cafe that opened itself up to indie musicians. They all stopped it when one of the BMI/ASCAP reps came in and scared the bejilders out of them. Its not like these little places make much money. Or, they paid it if they felt it was the core of their business. How much did Paul McCartny or other musicians make from it after the rep's commissions and BMI/ASCAP's cuts were taken...probably nothing they gave a flying hoot about. They're probably honored their music is being played.

 

But, what's happened is BMI and ASCAP are too big to stop. Its not like a chain owned radio station selling really expensive airtime and playing an artists music who doesn't get paid. The artists should get a share via BMI/ASCAP...when someone is making tons of money off their music. But, the small venues barely make anything and the performing indie barely makes anything. So who gains? The BMI/ASCAP commissioned rep and no one else...and the music industry is hurt by it.

 

Of interest, is to my knowledge a municipality like a village that has a festival is exempt from BMI/ASCAP...because they are not for profit. Religious places, too, as they're not for profit. Interesting.

 

There was a little venue I once played at that put my gig in the newspaper. A BMI/ASCAP rep saw it and the day after my gig showed up and shook 'em down. Area musicians heard I caused the place to be busted by BMI/ASCAP...for about three years people would stop me and say they heard how BMI/ASCAP busting my gigs. (Not gig, but gigs.) The legend grew around town...I actually got more and more gigs. I would even begin forwarning the venue and start asking upfront if they participated with BMI/ASCAP (many actually did). Or, were kinda thrilled with the outlaw potential of it all. Interesting, eh?

 

Your gigging isn't over. Your legend is just starting to build. You're good enough to have a venue shut down because of all the monies you generate that go unpaid in terms of royalties.

 

Realistically, most places that have a juke box or background musak are part of the BMI/ASCAP thing already...although there are different fees for recorded vs. live music or some other nonsense in their pricing scam/scare tactics.

 

Hope this helps.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

[Rambler]

There was a sweet little night spot just over the border from here, had some great artists in, $5 cover, cheap drafts and great music. Guys would come up and play 2 nights, so you could catch a lesson before the gig if you had a mind to. Until they got called out. That was the end of that. While this is supposedly in defense of the Artiste (publishers, actually), I wonder. People go to clubs hear tunes, want to buy the CD, people get paid (free advertising, yes?). Shut down the clubs, who gets a listen, except for radio which plays the same old. Too many lawyers, not enough sense.

[jannusguy2]

I'm a concert promoter and I pay ASCAP , BMI and Sesac fees for all shows that I present. I never understood why I had to pay these fees for the artists that wrote the music to perform it. I'm already paying them a guarantee. It's a reality but a scam at some level, too.

[BluesKing777]

It is time to drag out the old chestnut: "One Door Closes and Another Door Opens!"

 

You can now take your much sought after expertise to another well-paying establishment that has their licenses covered a bit more professionally and hopefully you get a pay rise! (Though in your case you may need to negotiate a bit harder than last time).

 

There are usually 4 sides to these rules, and normally if you aren't making any money, they turn a blind eye and couldn't give a rat's......but someone is new in the job or a nose is out of joint over something in the neighbours?

 

You have a new gig with your new amp, don't you OWF?

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

(Be careful of the Taxman's rules if you start getting paid for a gig, OWF - if you have a day job, the monies go on top of what you already earn).

[MissouriPicker]

Wily, it's like that most everywhere. I had a two-year gig at a coffeehouse. One of these copyright outfits wrote them a letter, demanding a list of the songs I and a friend were doing. The crazy thing was that we were doing only our own original material at that coffeehouse. We were aware that they had no license for cover songs. Had someone from this outfit actually been at the coffeehouse listening they'd have heard NOTHING they'd ever heard before. We found-out that this particular outfit hires a lot of college students to do the "leg work" on this stuff and what they do is check coffeehouses and other businesses that advertise "live music." They check community newspapers and craig's list, etc. If you're supporting "live music" you're getting a letter that threatens fines and law suits if you don't pay the license fees. They don't even know if covers are being performed. They're "fishing." I really don't have much issue with legitimate claims about copyright laws etc. I agree that an artist should be paid for what he/she does, but these people are trying to strong-arm anyone they can. They don't know if you are providing a venue for cover songs or originals. Either way they try to frighten the business owner into buying the license.......For the last few years I've had 4 particular places that pay all the fees and I can play whatever I want. However, I've also got around 3 hours of my own material I can do if a venue does not have a license for cover music. My advice, for whatever it's worth, is to learn all the public domain songs you can and write some of your own songs. There are quite-a-few restaurants I'd never get to play if I didn't have my own material.

 

Whatever you do, keep playing your music. As you mentioned, add some traditional material into your set, and write some songs. NO MATTER WHAT, don't let this stop you. Learn some cowboy songs, House of The Rising Sun and all the other great traditionals, and meanwhile try writing some songs. AND, check-out some other coffeehouses.

[onewilyfool]

Thanks for the advice guys! How do you know if a song has a copyright or IS in the public domain? Is there a website for public domain songs?? I guess I will have to knuckle down and write some originals....lol....talk about motivation.....!!! I've only played my "amped" gig once, so we did not receive any notice.....but I imagine it is just a matter of time!!!

[Murph]

Never Say Die.....

[telemaster03]

Had this happen to a couple places in my town as well. Basically, anytime there is a public performance of music there is an entity charging a use fee, or licensing fee. I manage a financial institution and we play Sirius/XM...in this case the licensing fee is included in the subscription price. Even the Church that I attend has to log the songs that we sing and report them to the Church equivalent, CCLI. They pay a monthly fee to CCLI for the license but it gives them some benefit, like access to lead sheets for songs they license.

 

I am also amazed that the business owners are surprised when they get reported, this certainly isn't anything new. In the event musicians are involved (your weekly jam at the place down the street) they usually get pretty bothered by it because many of them don't know about the licensing requirement.

 

If you are so inclined you can read ASCAP's FAQ page about licensing:

 

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx

 

Most major music works are affiliated with BMI or ASCAP, and in the end a portion of the fees benefit the music publisher and songwriter. It can also affect music on hold in your business as well as music delivered via the internet.

[MissouriPicker]

Wily, last I heard------if it was written before 1919, then its public domain. House of the Rising Sun, Amazing Grace, Danny Boy, Red River Valley, and hundreds more. Check some of the websites for traditionals. Manny of these old songs came-out of work crews for the railroads in the 1850's. Delia's Gone is an example. Corrine, Corrina is another. Here's a decent site to start with.......

http://www.pdinfo.com/Public-Domain-Music-List.php

[Danner]

Can't you simply purchase a copy of the sheet music for each song? I'm pretty sure you will then be legal.

[MissouriPicker]

Danner, buying the sheet music gives you the right to perform it privately for friends....lol....which you can do anyway by just learning it from some book or off the internet........BUT, if you want to perform it in public for free or for a fee, either you or the owner of the venue has to pay one of these places like ASCAP. From protecting the rights of the artists, this has turned into a racket.

[vacamartin]

Welcome to the snarky little world of assistant lawsuit clerks trained to find/fine anyone is violation of the letter of the copyright law. These scumbags are all over the place. Times are tough, and the low lifes looking for an easy payout are learning how to bend the "ears" of hard working people. It's become too much crap!

[Stubee]

From my experience QuestionMark & MissouriPicker have the correct analysis. It does seem odd to those that play. 'free gigs' but while your performance is 'free', the joint is for-profit. That's all it takes. Same deal lately in my town of 38,000. One of my friends was asked to do no covers at a brew pub & obliged & it worked OK for him because his originals are so close in structure & rhythm to R&B standards. I doubt most of this audience cared much what they were hearing.

 

This wasn't an issue when I played bars & clubs but that's because they knew the copyright stuff vs our local coffee shop.

[guitarstrummer]

Did you actually see the written complaint or are you just taking the owner's word? Not saying the owner isn't being straight with you, but I've heard of a similar incident happening before where the owner just didn't want the person playing anymore and didn't have the guts to tell her to her face. So they used a similar reason for telling her she could no longer play at his shop. If you did see something in writing and are pretty sure the owner is being on the up and up, I'd make sure to report any tips you received on your taxes because they might be looking at that too.

[MR GIBS]

First of all don't dive up! I am sure that you want to keep on playing. So don't stop doing it.

make your own music and play it.

Find some uncopyright stuff and play it.

But don't give up.

If you let yourself some bureaucrat to tell you what to do you are finished.

If I was in your shoes I would eagerly more. Noone can tell me do not play when I want.

Make your own music and just play it.

[Guth]

Make your own music and just play it.

 

This.

 

If I didn't have a voice that sounded like fingernails on a chalkboard, that's definitely what I'd be doing. Your posts themselves are often rather entertaining — you seem like a fairly witty guy and tell a good story. Look at this situation sort of like being pushed into the deep end of the pool before you think that you're ready. I'm guessing that you'll swim just as well in that end of the pool as you have been at the shallow end.

 

Best of uck to you. I hope this opportunity gets your creative juices flowing!

[EuroAussie]

This.

 

If I didn't have a voice that sounded like fingernails on a chalkboard, that's definitely what I'd be doing. Your posts themselves are often rather entertaining — you seem like a fairly witty guy and tell a good story. Look at this situation sort of like being pushed into the deep end of the pool before you think that you're ready. I'm guessing that you'll swim just as well in that end of the pool as you have been at the shallow end.

 

Best of uck to you. I hope this opportunity gets your creative juices flowing!

 

Now there's a Pepsi challenge for ya OWF ....

[michaeljohnr]

This is where the music industry loses me.

 

Some kid posts a cover of xxxxxx on YouTube, get's 5 million views and becomes famous. No issues.

 

You play for free in a cafe and get nailed.

 

I don't follow that model.

 

As an aside, how are those covers people post to YouTube handled? Are they viewed the same?

 

They potentially reach more people than you in a small cafe gig could ever hope to yet they are permitted? Or no?

[jt]

I spend a fair amount of time giving presentations on this topic to law schools, university classes, and arts high schools. Indeed, I did this in an arts high school just this past Wednesday.

 

Pursuant to the US Copyright Act (17 U.S.C. § 106) composers own their compositions and have the exclusive right to perform the copyrighted work publicly. That right is subject to a compulsory license -- the composers can't refuse the license, but venues need the license to offer live performances legally.

 

Artists formed the non-profit performance rights associations, ASCAP, BMI, SEASAC, just before WWI to administer the copyrights and to collect the very modest royalties from live performance.

 

So, to the point at hand: venues offer music, that (hopefully) brings in business, and if the venues don't buy the (modestly priced) licenses composers are forced to give away their compositions for free.