The quickest way to become a better player

[zigzag]

So...the five patterns above this post...

 

How do I know what fret it starts at?

 

 

The scale patterns are the same everywhere on the fretboard. If you want to play an A Major or minor pentatonic, one of the roots will be on the fifth fret of the sixth string or A.

[cookieman15061]

Whut

 

 

Haha!

[Rabs]

So...the five patterns above this post...

 

How do I know what fret it starts at?

 

 

Now that I'm hearing music in my head...I find the closest starting note on the piano (assuming the note I hear isn't on there) and move from there. Knowing where to move next and what other notes sound good with it to make chords has made me realize that

 

1. knowing scales and chords is useful because there's nothing I will discover that isn't already there

 

2. knwoing scales and chords may have prevented me from hearing what I hear in my head as it is (I'd be trying to fit it to what theory sais sounds good or would sound less amateurist or whatever...)

 

Conflicted. Music and letters...makes me feel wierd when they combine.

 

But for guitar it seems really useful to know what the fingers should avoid to keep from screwing up.

Yeah I also only discovered all this about a year or so ago..

 

Before that id just stab around the fretboard and played by ear... I worked out the pentatonic thing just by playing but learning this sort of theory enabled me to understand the relationship between the frets and the keys a lot more..

 

There was some quote I read a while back about how you should learn all of this theory to understand the guitar but then forget it all again when you want to play... Its a method to play improvised solos in key.. So as long as you know what chord is playing you can play any riff in tune.

 

As mentioned the patterns are the same up and down the fretboard.. I look at it as blocks of 4 frets.. So when playing in A a lot of the frets between the 5th and 8th frets will be in tune on most strings, for G its between the 3rd and 6th fret and for F the 1st and 4th etc etc..

 

I use that first one on the top left mostly.. So play that starting on the Bottom E at the 5th fret then play an A after.. Then move down to the third fret do the same pattern again and play a G and then down to the first and play an F.. you will soon get it if you try that (I think ;))

It does take a short while to get your head around it but when it hits you, your like OH YEAH duhh why did I not see that before. lol :)

[Aster1]

I gotta lotta learn. Wish I was still 25 and had a pre-head injury memory!

 

Thanks to all that know trying to help those (me & others) that don't learn something. I'll check into some books or maybe a DVD training if any are any good.

 

Just like programming & other stuff I have to learn/do for work. If I keep hammering it in, the bulb does light up at some point if you can make it interesting enough OR YOU GET PAID ENOUGH MONEY to learn it!!

 

Thanks again. I love reading stuff here.

 

Aster

[rct]

2. knwoing scales and chords may have prevented me from hearing what I hear in my head as it is (I'd be trying to fit it to what theory sais sounds good or would sound less amateurist or whatever...)

 

Not at all. Knowing scales and chords would only explain why whatever it is you hear in your head either sounds good or doesn't. There is no music outside of music theory, and music theory neither prevents or encourages anything, it merely documents and explains why something is or isn't good to hear.

 

rct

[Izzy]

@ Rabs

 

I see how they "stack" on your digram for sure. Those stackers I get for sure.

 

The little circled R is just confusing in the other diagram. "Its a clear circle so I don't use it? Its clear...that means open strum, no wait, this isn't tabs, lol"

[rocketman]

This would be so much easier to understand if everyone takes up some simple piano lessons. Playing the piano forces you to learn theory because everything is laid out there for you. When I play the guitar I "see" the notes because I'm a piano player first.

 

To Izzy: let me give the best advice that my jazz instructor ever gave me. Learn as much theory as you can and then practice it enough that it all comes out naturally without thinking about it. For example, I know to "jazz" up a lick I would play a mixolydian scale on the root fifth chord. The trick is to have it come out without thinking about it.

 

The musically gifted do this without knowing they are doing it (SRV is a perfect example). Others less gifted, like me, had to learn the hard way.

[Rabs]

@ Rabs

 

I see how they "stack" on your digram for sure. Those stackers I get for sure.

 

The little circled R is just confusing in the other diagram. "Its a clear circle so I don't use it? Its clear...that means open strum, no wait, this isn't tabs, lol"

Lol sorry I should have said ignore the red and blue dots...

 

I got that chart from here http://www.learn-guitar-online.com/pentatonicscale.html seems like some good lessons.. He says that the red dots are the minor tonic and the blue dots are the major tonics (just highlighting which notes are the "blues" notes which are the ones you accent a riff with to make it sound more traditionally bluesy).

 

Its worth a read and not too long winded.

[quapman]

 

 

As mentioned the patterns are the same up and down the fretboard.. I look at it as blocks of 4 frets.. So when playing in A a lot of the frets between the 5th and 8th frets will be in tune on most strings, for G its between the 3rd and 6th fret and for F the 1st and 4th etc etc..

 

I use that first one on the top left mostly.. So play that starting on the Bottom E at the 5th fret then play an A after.. Then move down to the third fret do the same pattern again and play a G and then down to the first and play an F.. you will soon get it if you try that (I think ;))

 

 

I'm just curious what you mean when you say the patterns are the same up and down the fretboard?

 

 

Also, for the record, the pic Dave posted is the Major Pent, this one you posted is the minor Pent.

If you play mostly the "top left" then you are playing pattern 1 of the minor pentatonic.

[Rabs]

I'm just curious what you mean when you say the patterns are the same up and down the fretboard?

 

 

Also, for the record, the pic Dave posted is the Major Pent, this one you posted is the minor Pent.

If you play mostly the "top left" then you are playing pattern 1 of the minor pentatonic.

I was referring to Izzys post where she said how do I know what fret to start on..

 

I was saying that the pentatonic scale positions are the same but move up and down the fretboard depending on what key you want to play in.

[quapman]

I was referring to Izzys post where she said how do I know what fret to start on..

 

I was saying that the pentatonic scale positions are the same but move up and down the fretboard depending on what key you want to play in.

 

 

Ah yes,, I think I see what you mean.

 

It it more correct to say the scale patterns are the same and move up and down the neck. When you say position, I think fret number.

 

So I think what you mean is the pentatonic scale patterns are the same but change position depending on what key.

[Rabs]

Ah yes,, I think I see what you mean.

 

It it more correct to say the scale patterns are the same and move up and down the neck. When you say position, I think fret number.

 

So I think what you mean is the pentatonic scale patterns are the same but change position depending on what key.

Yes exactly.. Unfortunately neither my music theory or grammar are very good.. Ive always been a by ear player and happy with that, I can work most things out (roughly)... But I admit that I wish id started learning this stuff much earlier. It takes a short while to get your head around but once you do is worth it. (I still have a long way to go when it comes to theory).

 

Cheers..

 

And yeah, I like that minor position.. it works in a lot of circumstances (for me anyway :))

[quapman]

Rabs,, I have faked my way through alot of years knowing just the

minor pentatonic scale.

But I highly recommend you learn all the modes of it.

 

Playing as you described,

Your favorite pattern(the minor pent) starting on the A and then playing an A chord, followed by sliding the whole pattern down to the G repeating the pattern and then a G chord,, is great but it's not really opening up the neck.

 

If you learn all the modes and memorize them you can noodle all the way up through the modes and stay in key all the way.

[Rabs]

Rabs,, I have faked my way through alot of years knowing just the

minor pentatonic scale.

But I highly recommend you learn all the modes of it.

 

Playing as you described,

The your favorite pattern starting on the A and then playing an A chord, followed by sliding the whole pattern down to the G repeating the pattern and then a G chord,, is great but it's not really opening up the neck.

 

If you learn all the modes and memorize them you can noodle all the way up through the modes and stay in key all the way.

Yeah I hear ya.. I was explaining it that way to Izzy cos when I started doing that all of a sudden I went AH HAA a real eureka moment when it just clicked.. Hoping she may get the same thing.. its just a step towards helping understand it which may or may not work for her. Im fully aware you still need to learn how to use it and as you say the other modes will only help open things up even more

 

(too busy building them at the moment.. need to play/learn more :))

[jaxson50]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkvLdivRHzs

Lessons start around 13:00 into it

[milod]

One thing that really intrigues me about this thread is how it demonstrates how different players simply have very different perspectives on what it is that they're doing on an instrument that is so terribly simple and so horrifyingly complex at the same time.

 

I started on piano when I was around age 4 thanks to Mom having this belief that I should learn something about music. I didn't really work at it and, in retrospect, it's as if I "knew" even at a very young age that it just didn't really click in my head.

 

Trumpet... ditto although I could get by a lot better and ended up doing better as a "ear" player than playing off the map.

 

Guitar? Well...

 

Each of us has his or her own story.

 

Honestly, given various studies on learning theory, I'm increasingly convinced that guitar "learning" is so complex that although you can have a functional curriculum to impress a concept on someone (e.g., classical guitar, rock rhythm guitar, whatever) you still aren't necessarily tapping the different learning angles we know exist in teaching other arts and skills.

 

Rocketman's comment about piano I think works for him - and IMHO, don't figure he's lacking bundles of talent regardless what he says - but I think even there, it takes a certain "overview mentality" to allow catching on to make playing click. That's a different mentality than what makes a violinist or trumpet player's mind click, I think.

 

Izzy has had some material online with piano playing and it's very, very, very nice, but she sez she struggles with guitar and I believe her. Why? I think perhaps what she's trying to play doesn't necessarily fit how her head works with a complex combination of what she hears and wants to play ... and what her head deep inside perceives music differently from what she hears.

 

I'm not so sure that after a certain point we can truly and effortless play how our subconscious perceives music. If we work hard enough, yeah, I think we can play it, but OTOH, I don't think we inside necessarily ever are comfortable playing in a manner that isn't somehow hardwired.

 

I just left a school board meeting where a 50-student alternative high school is beginning a computer-guided personalized curriculum with laptops and the same basic requirements as the regular high school, but on a self-paced, teacher-assisted style rather than a regular classroom experience. Bill might be doing advanced math, but still struggling through freshman English - and that's okay because the teachers can emphasize help in his English while he soars with his math.

 

Guitar playing is not only music theory, it's learning theory. I think everyone, even the deaf, can reach a given level of competence playing guitar in some way - but the goal for all of us is to figure how to best learn what it is that sings inside us.

 

<grin> Wouldn't that make a great PhD study and thesis when translated into standard English?

 

m

[Rabs]

One thing that really intrigues me about this thread is how it demonstrates how different players simply have very different perspectives on what it is that they're doing on an instrument that is so terribly simple and so horrifyingly complex at the same time.

 

Isnt that always the issue on here ;) :)

[jaxson50]

Fareed Haque's online lessons are very good, you may want to give them a look see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfCrSO3A82o

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0140OWvZkKY

[quapman]

Jaxson,

That second vid was interesting.

My teacher talked about that exact same thing.

It is something I want to work on. But as a basement hack I don't have too many toes to step on. And I'm not so sure the guys I jam with know any better.. lol,, or they just don't tell me.

 

 

I'm not ready for the jazz though. I have dabbled a little but

my old brain is too corroded to make that leap.

I am shifting my learning more into chording now. I have neglected it.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Just to save any confusion re Quapman's post above, there are no modes to the minor pentatonic. In fact, the minor scale is amode in iitself. Hope you don't mind me jumping in there QM, not being a pedant and I realise you knew what you meant. Just an unfortunate choice of words because "mode", in this context, means something entirely different.

 

I have thought about making a series of vids with my teaching methodology all laid out. It has proven to be a good technique which has helped several people undrstand scales, modes, keys, chords and more very quickly. I have been hesitant because people often don't want to know, I shy away from showing friends any theory, or explaining things because thy can feel patronised but since there seems to be a good appetite for it here maybe I'll do it.

[daveinspain]

 

 

 

 

Very good point in adding the fingering to this chart, #1 is your index finger, #2 your second finger, #3 your ring finger, #4 your pinky... What do the red and blue dot represent?

 

Edit: Oh I see blue is the rute note but what is red?

[Pin]

Very good point in adding the fingering to this chart, #1 is your index finger, #2 your second finger, #3 your ring finger, #4 your pinky... What do the red and blue dot represent?

 

Edit: Oh I see blue is the rute note but what is red?

 

Major and Minor roots Dave. The red is the Minor Root and the blue is the Major root.

[daveinspain]

Major and Minor roots Dave. The red is the Minor Root and the blue is the Major root.

 

[badbluesplayer]

If I was taught properly, I would have learned this stuff. But I am a "seat of the pants" player, as Milod describes it. Just playing by ear mostly, hacking and plinking until it sounds good.

 

I had to learn the hard ( ) way, like Jimi, BB, Eric, Freddie, Albert, SRV and just about every other decent blues guitarist you can think of. I figure if you want to play like them, you have to learn like them.

 

Do you think that Albert Collins knew what tonic was major and which fifth was vermouth? He just moved that capo up and down and transposed everything by moving up and down the fretboard. That's the easy way to do it. If you do stuff the easy way, you can do it better.

 

I just stick with my "positions". Root, Major, Albert, BB, Eric.

[zigzag]

I had to learn the hard ( ) way, like Jimi, BB, Eric, Freddie, Albert, SRV and just about every other decent blues guitarist you can think of. I figure if you want to play like them, you have to learn like them.

 

I won't dispute that the greatest blues players in the history of the blues learned without knowing theory, and that other greats learned from earlier greats. Even Wes Montgomery claims he didn't know theory, but other jazz blues players like Grant Green, George Benson, and Kenny Burrell are no strangers to theory, and they play/played blues as well as anyone. I don't want to re-start this unwinnable debate, but I really cannot understand why people are resistant to learning theory. The argument that knowing theory and scales will stifle creativity is simply indefensible.

 

There are an infinite number of ways to play pentatonic and blues scales, but blues can get pretty stagnant if those are the only notes employed. Eric Clapton and BB may have been a great blues guitarists in their day, but IMO, their blues playing has become staid and predictable.