sbpark Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I've read about people who swear guitars "open up" over time, and change as far as responsiveness, gaining a fuller sound, more articulate sound, looser sound, etc. I never believed this to be true. With that said I really haven't owned many acoustic guitars in my years of playing guitar. Until last year I've pretty much been into electric guitars. Earlier this year I picked up a brand new 2014 J45 Standard, and about a month alter a Martin 000-15M. I am currently waiting on delivery of a used 2013 J35 that will hopefully be here next week. I recently sold a 1997 Yamaha FG-441S that I bought brand new back in 1997; solid top, laminate back and sides. I will say I obviously knew that guitar very well, given I played the crap out of it and owned it for 18 years until selling it several months ago. That guitar sounded the same on the day I sold it as it did on day one when I bought it. I touted it all over the country with me, taking it everywhere I lived over the years; East Coast, West Coast,etc. Was a great guitar, albeit a bit heavy and overbuilt, but great nonetheless. Enter my J45 Standard I bought this past March. After comparing several examples and playing several at a few shops, I went with one I bought in person from Wildwood guitars. Just a great sounding J45. I play this guitar literally everyday, even if it's just for a minute, but I make it a point to pick it up every day. I have noticed that it, at least to my ears, has changed in tone. Compared to when I bought it. The J45 always has a nice, full bottom, which is why I bought it compared to the others I compared it to. But in the last few weeks it seems to just sound more punchy and big sounding. Still sounds very balanced, but overall just louder. Maybe it's just my mind playing tricks on me, changes in humidity, or living in different parts of the country since I bought the guitar in Colorado and and temporarily in the Bay Area until January, but maybe the different climate is affecting the guitar. I'm not a stickler on keeping the guitar in a case, but do travel with a humidity gauge, and haven't experienced anything that would warrant having to humidify the guitar. In fact, it's been a little too humid up here in the Bay area (60%+) compared to the drier Colorado air. With that said, the guitar does have a "drier, louder, bigger sound to it. My Martin 000-15M that I also have with me seems to sound the same as it did on day 1 when I bought it back in April. I have no clue what the point of this thread is, just looking to start a discussion and see what other's have experienced. Maybe the reason I haven't heard much difference over the years with the Yamaha and a Recording King ROS-06 I owned for a few years (and was an awesome guitar, especially for the money, btw) were because they were laminated back and sides, and less prone to environmental changes, but isn't most of the sound affected by the top? Am I crazy to think my J45 is changing, or is this something that really happens over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hi.. actually they do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58 Relic Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hi , Yes interesting topic . I own a J45 standard made this March 2015 and have noticed quite a change going on in the guitar as follows 1, I have noticed that the guitar has become slightly more dynamic and touch sensitive 2, The tone of the guitar has indeed mellowed in the treble register and the bass has become fuller 3, The guitar is louder and does has a slightly longer sustain All the above changes are not dramatic but subtle , but now this sounds crazy I find the guitar always sounds better on a wet day outside rather than in hot weather . One thing that did help , when I bought the guitar I did place it in front of the sound system on a stand for a good amount of time to help the guitar loosen up ( Four or five days of Alan Jacksons Greatest Hits did the trick ) I also own a Taylor GSmini that is just over a year old and played to death , now that guitar sounds the same as the day I bought it , strange old world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbpicker Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 After more than 50 years of playing, and owning dozens ( a few dozen in fact) of guitars, I can say without reservation that they do open up over time. Some more than others, and solids much more than laminates, but your ears are not deceiving you... Changes are taking place. Ain't it great? Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hi , Yes interesting topic . I own a J45 standard made this March 2015 and have noticed quite a change going on in the guitar as follows 1, I have noticed that the guitar has become slightly more dynamic and touch sensitive 2, The tone of the guitar has indeed mellowed in the treble register and the bass has become fuller 3, The guitar is louder and does has a slightly longer sustain All the above changes are not dramatic but subtle , but now this sounds crazy I find the guitar always sounds better on a wet day outside rather than in hot weather . One thing that did help , when I bought the guitar I did place it in front of the sound system on a stand for a good amount of time to help the guitar loosen up ( Four or five days of Alan Jacksons Greatest Hits did the trick ) I also own a Taylor GSmini that is just over a year old and played to death , now that guitar sounds the same as the day I bought it , strange old world I find this interesting, because I swear my guitar sounds better on drier days! Also, this may be for a totally different topic, but I also think that many of the changes we hear over time may be part due to what we perceive as changes and really aren't, and/or could also be partially due to the guitar 'drying out' over time. I was a bit "overprotective" of the guitar when it was new, religiously putting it in its case when not playing it, monitoring it's humidity, etc. Ive never owned a guitar this nice or this expensive. But over the last few months i have basically left the guitar out of the case and just treat it more like a tool that it to be used, instead of a museum piece. Maybe over time the finish changes, the wood dries out, thus resulting in the sound of the instrument changing. I mean, do you really think all of those great examples of J45's that have survived over decades were kept in their cases and babied?! I doubt it. They were played and left out, but not abused or dried out to the point where they were damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I like posts like this. I too am skeptical of certain things... well, most things in life. And sound is such a bizarre thing, because human beings do not actually have the capacity to remember sound. We remember how we felt when we heard a certain sound, or we translate it otherwise into something we can remember, but the sound itself? No way. We "remember" sounds for a few seconds, at best. When you hear a familiar sound, the sound itself is not familiar to you; what's familiar is how the sound affects you. The human brain can't record sounds, and when we hear sounds in our head (such as how I'm hearing my voice right now as I type this), it's more like a simulation. Our brain is not playing back a recording, nor actually making any sounds. (I know, I am stating the obvious.) (I am not a scientist and could be wrong about any or all of the above. Then again, scientists can be, and frequently are, wrong about plenty, too.) To make matters worse, our mood, digestive system, and about a billion other things affect how we "hear" something. Hear a guitar one day, think it's absolutely fantastic? You might be in a good mood and might have had a healthy breakfast. Hear it another day and it sounds all weird? You might be ticked off, bloated, or in an extreme example, maybe you're flat drunk and can't even tune it because your hearing is affected by your inebriation. And guitars themselves, as you noted, are subject to all kinds of factors, like strings, string age, humidity, the player, the pick... One thing I am very skeptical of is whether there are any "bad" guitars, or at least bad Gibsons (which people always say vary so greatly and are so hit/miss) or bad Martins or bad Taylors. I don't really believe there are dogs and gems, and I think with TLC, one man's dog could turn into another's gem. (Anyway, dogs are man's best friend.) If there is a guitar that has something structurally wrong with it, yes, it might sound and play poorly, but generally with even a modicum of quality control, a guitar factory should be turning out fairly consistent guitars. They'll sound different from each other, but none should sound bad, and none are going to be a holy grail compared to the others. All that neither being here nor there... One thing I am absolutely convinced of, despite the fallibility and fickleness of the human ability to process sound, is that guitars do change over time. Dramatically? Maybe not, but perceptibly, and scientifically provably? I think we would find so. I think there are a few factors. One, is that it seems guitars can be "broken-in". The vibrations make them work better as a collection of pieces of wood and glue and plastic and metal. A brand new guitar will sound different than one that's been played an hour. Am I convinced of this? No, but I think it's distinctly possible (and greatly affected by all of the above, from moods to strings). You will hear stories of people putting their guitar against a speaker or in front of a speaker and swearing it sounds better afterwards. The Tonerite is based on this. Does it happen? I don't know. I think it's most dramatic when a guitar is new and after a few hours of play. After that, I think maybe not. When you run across a great guitar from the 1930s, it sounds good because it's old (more on this soon), not because it's been played a lot. Assuming it's been played some at least. There may be a need to "wake it up," as some people say and think. I'm skeptical of this, too, but it's possible. (And yes, it's also possible that a guitar played 10,000 hours will sound better than one played 10 hours, but in order for a guitar to get played 10,000 hours, it also has to be old. I guess we could test this by Tone-riting an unplayed guitar for 10,000 hours and having another unplayed guitar just sit in a vacuum for 10,000 hours.) The second factor, and probably the most important one, is actual, physical age of the guitar. As wood ages, its bound moisture evaporates. Bound moisture is different from the moisture that goes in and out of the guitar as it "breathes". A new guitar will sound different from a guitar that is 100 years old (or even 10) because it will have less bound moisture, and dryer guitars sound "better". You can even dry out a brand new guitar. You can't get the bound moisture out, but you can get the rest of the moisture out. It is dangerous, will mess up the finish, may crack, and may even cause the guitar to implode, but before it does, it'll sound great. 100 years of aging a guitar and it kind of sounds like that without being damaged, because the bound moisture is gone. (Or 10 years, whatever.) The cellular structure actually changes, resin hardens... (Torrefaction, which I will only mention and not get into, is one way to remove the bound moisture from wood, although I don't think it sounds exactly like an actual naturally aged guitar--just similar. Maybe in 100 years we can compare a 100 year-old guitar made from torrefied wood with an identical model made from non-torrefied wood.) Long way of saying, no, I don't think you're crazy, and that there are many things happening here, and it might not be quite as drastic as guitar mystics like to talk about, but there is something. Probably. I would have expected even your laminate-body, solid-top guitars to change over time. Some really old laminate guitars (with solid tops) sound great. Of course, we have no proof they didn't sound like that to begin with... :) But we can be pretty sure. Part of the trouble is that these things are difficult to prove, and few have bothered to try, so we're left with what we think, which is greatly influenced by how we feel. Kudos to anyone who has read all my guitar philosophy. I enjoyed writing it and avoiding my bedtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hi , Yes interesting topic . I own a J45 standard made this March 2015 and have noticed quite a change going on in the guitar as follows 1, I have noticed that the guitar has become slightly more dynamic and touch sensitive 2, The tone of the guitar has indeed mellowed in the treble register and the bass has become fuller 3, The guitar is louder and does has a slightly longer sustain All the above changes are not dramatic but subtle , but now this sounds crazy I find the guitar always sounds better on a wet day outside rather than in hot weather . I've had the exact same experience with both my brand new Hummingbird Vintage, and my new old stock (born April 2014) J-15. Treble has gotten fuller and less prominent, and the bass has deepened--swear the midrange, especially on the J-15, has deepened, too. And, I think they sound better when the humidity is more like 55% versus 35%. Could be a preferential thing. I know a guy who had an HD-28 that he kept at 15% humidity, and it looked like corduroy. :( Guitar abuse. He did this because he thought it made it sound fantastic. It did sound fantastic, and maybe that's what he prefers, but I have to wonder if it would have sounded just as good if he'd been kind to it and treated it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 I like posts like this. I too am skeptical of certain things... well, most things in life. And sound is such a bizarre thing, because human beings do not actually have the capacity to remember sound. We remember how we felt when we heard a certain sound, or we translate it otherwise into something we can remember, but the sound itself? No way. We "remember" sounds for a few seconds, at best. When you hear a familiar sound, the sound itself is not familiar to you; what's familiar is how the sound affects you. The human brain can't record sounds, and when we hear sounds in our head (such as how I'm hearing my voice right now as I type this), it's more like a simulation. Our brain is not playing back a recording, nor actually making any sounds. (I know, I am stating the obvious.) (I am not a scientist and could be wrong about any or all of the above. Then again, scientists can be, and frequently are, wrong about plenty, too.) To make matters worse, our mood, digestive system, and about a billion other things affect how we "hear" something. Hear a guitar one day, think it's absolutely fantastic? You might be in a good mood and might have had a healthy breakfast. Hear it another day and it sounds all weird? You might be ticked off, bloated, or in an extreme example, maybe you're flat drunk and can't even tune it because your hearing is affected by your inebriation. And guitars themselves, as you noted, are subject to all kinds of factors, like strings, string age, humidity, the player, the pick... One thing I am very skeptical of is whether there are any "bad" guitars, or at least bad Gibsons (which people always say vary so greatly and are so hit/miss) or bad Martins or bad Taylors. I don't really believe there are dogs and gems, and I think with TLC, one man's dog could turn into another's gem. (Anyway, dogs are man's best friend.) If there is a guitar that has something structurally wrong with it, yes, it might sound and play poorly, but generally with even a modicum of quality control, a guitar factory should be turning out fairly consistent guitars. They'll sound different from each other, but none should sound bad, and none are going to be a holy grail compared to the others. All that neither being here nor there... One thing I am absolutely convinced of, despite the fallibility and fickleness of the human ability to process sound, is that guitars do change over time. Dramatically? Maybe not, but perceptibly, and scientifically provably? I think we would find so. I think there are a few factors. One, is that it seems guitars can be "broken-in". The vibrations make them work better as a collection of pieces of wood and glue and plastic and metal. A brand new guitar will sound different than one that's been played an hour. Am I convinced of this? No, but I think it's distinctly possible (and greatly affected by all of the above, from moods to strings). You will hear stories of people putting their guitar against a speaker or in front of a speaker and swearing it sounds better afterwards. The Tonerite is based on this. Does it happen? I don't know. I think it's most dramatic when a guitar is new and after a few hours of play. After that, I think maybe not. When you run across a great guitar from the 1930s, it sounds good because it's old (more on this soon), not because it's been played a lot. Assuming it's been played some at least. There may be a need to "wake it up," as some people say and think. I'm skeptical of this, too, but it's possible. (And yes, it's also possible that a guitar played 10,000 hours will sound better than one played 10 hours, but in order for a guitar to get played 10,000 hours, it also has to be old. I guess we could test this by Tone-riting an unplayed guitar for 10,000 hours and having another unplayed guitar just sit in a vacuum for 10,000 hours.) The second factor, and probably the most important one, is actual, physical age of the guitar. As wood ages, its bound moisture evaporates. Bound moisture is different from the moisture that goes in and out of the guitar as it "breathes". A new guitar will sound different from a guitar that is 100 years old (or even 10) because it will have less bound moisture, and dryer guitars sound "better". You can even dry out a brand new guitar. You can't get the bound moisture out, but you can get the rest of the moisture out. It is dangerous, will mess up the finish, may crack, and may even cause the guitar to implode, but before it does, it'll sound great. 100 years of aging a guitar and it kind of sounds like that without being damaged, because the bound moisture is gone. (Or 10 years, whatever.) The cellular structure actually changes, resin hardens... (Torrefaction, which I will only mention and not get into, is one way to remove the bound moisture from wood, although I don't think it sounds exactly like an actual naturally aged guitar--just similar. Maybe in 100 years we can compare a 100 year-old guitar made from torrefied wood with an identical model made from non-torrefied wood.) Long way of saying, no, I don't think you're crazy, and that there are many things happening here, and it might not be quite as drastic as guitar mystics like to talk about, but there is something. Probably. I would have expected even your laminate-body, solid-top guitars to change over time. Some really old laminate guitars (with solid tops) sound great. Of course, we have no proof they didn't sound like that to begin with... :) But we can be pretty sure. Part of the trouble is that these things are difficult to prove, and few have bothered to try, so we're left with what we think, which is greatly influenced by how we feel. Kudos to anyone who has read all my guitar philosophy. I enjoyed writing it and avoiding my bedtime. I enjoyed reading this, and agree with a lot of it. I really believe there are way too many factors that contribute to what we hear, or how we perceive sound. I wake up some days and think my J45 sounds glorious, other days I wake up and it sounds uninspiring and dull. I really think if it has to do with actual changes in the guitar, or differences in ow I hear at that particular time, psychological changes, if I listened to loud music the night before or earlier that day, if my ears are clogged, etc. I'm just willing to accept that there are so many factors that may contribute to hearing )r perceiving) changes in how a guitar sounds that there's not a definite, be all, end all answer, and it's a combination of so many factors that we cannot have 100% control of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Yeah, I'm convinced they do "open up," or change in some ways, whatever you want to call it. I can honestly hear it in my guitars. I notice a mellowness, deeper bass, different feel to the neck and frets (of course that could be my hands just getting older), more of a resonance to the tone. Certainly, this is what my memory of then compared to what I hear now tells me. Still wood is a living (or was) thing and with time it changes. Some of it shrinks a bit and causes the grain to tighten-up, maybe even slightly split in places. Some of it may expand and stay that way due to the humidity it exists in. I think all of this has an effect on sound vibrations. And guitars seem to loosen-up and don't feel so tightly wound-up. I believe all of this can change the sound. You know, it's such a subjective kind of thing. I couldn't tell you if any one of my guitars sounds scientifically better than when it was new, but I've been conditioned for years to believe that guitars tend to sound better when they "open up." What sounds good totally depends on the ears doing the listening. Anyway good is good........So, for example, does my Hummingbird now actually hum better than when it was new? I guess it does or it should, but what the hell?--I liked the way it sounded when I bought it. All said and done, I tend to think that guitars mellow-out as they grow older, and that along with the unseen and very slight structural changes all lead to the sound changing some. What's better or worse, who knows?......I think there's a limit to "opening-up" and not every guitar benefits from it......This is pretty much based on my knowledge of guitars as a guitar player, not a builder or repair tech. But I believe it and I'm sticking to it. My bottom line is that whatever the passing of time does or doesn't do to guitars, so long as they sound good, I'm good with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfbird Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I agree they change with the weather (more feel than tone). And I agree they change over time. No way do my older guitars sound like the newer ones available of their model. But as far as opening up in a few days or months, I'm highly skeptical. I think that's wishful thinking in this 'I need it now' society. It takes years to change. Maybe torrification will help with this. But there's no way a 2014 model guitar has aged significantly in one year. Unless, of course, you leave her out in the rain or in direct sunlight. Properly cared for instruments take time to mature. Then again, many of our favorite musicians from way back whenever played guitars that were near brand spankin' new when they cut their records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Yes indeed they do (IMX).... Wood is wood....maybe too profound for some folks... :blink: Various factors involved, more or less to individual circumstances Temp...Humidity...Playing Frequency.... Mine are low/med range solid top 6 and 12 strings from China and Korea Yamaha, Breedlove, Guild, Takamine....up to 25yrs old... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I've read about people who swear guitars "open up" over time, and change as far as responsiveness, gaining a fuller sound, more articulate sound, looser sound, etc. I never believed this to be true. With that said I really haven't owned many acoustic guitars in my years of playing guitar. Until last year I've pretty much been into electric guitars. Many interesting ideas in this thread, fx the one above. How you could have an opinion about acoustic guitars opening up without really being into them, is a ridle to me Regarding human beings not being able to remember sound, I just say : Can't you recall your grandma's voice, , , or the opening chord of A Hard Days Night !? Yes, some sonic flavors are harder to sample inside and certain guitars will be so vague or anonymous that they just don't linger. But you can work up ability to remember sound - a bit like muscle exercise. Ask professional engineers, , , or experienced musicians. Then again people are people and the engineer might recall a certain sound differently than the guitarist. And even the shapest set of ears can get insecure from time to time. Btw. a quite safe way to check the process of a guitar, is to record the same piece of music over time - of course with the same steel (tho even strings may vary from package to package, if we really wanna get ant-f......). Still some changes will be too subtle to get on tape. I personally don't think much will be heard the first approx. 2 years. I mean, if the changes start after a month, the guitar will be totally unrecognizable within a decade, which isn't the case. But let's not forget our minds strong lust to adapt. Because that may have a huge role in the day to day way we understand our guitars and obviously counts when we grab the instruments and begin to play. Easy to see if you have more guitars than one. Goin' from rosewood to maple on two different models might make the latter ring strange. Only a matter of time before it's over - precisely like when you go from one LP to another. Speaking of studio-sound, I once had this one coming : In 1999 our band went to an analogue studio to record one single extra track (the rest had been done elsewhere). The record company had picked the place and even wanted a certain engineer to get it down. Fine with us so ahead we went. Started to set up around 10, but with the tech connected to the place. The hired gun (a person who btw had taken a severe LSD-blow as a young man, but that's another story) showed up around 12 or 1 when the basics were ready. First thing he said after hearing the early take was : Something is wrong - frequences are missing ! What !?! But there everyone stood and after some consideration, the studio owner called a third special-tech, who soon arrived and began to measure. Ganz right - something was missing and an examination/adjustment of the machine had to be carried out. The band waited for hours and everything got a bit surreal - not least because all units caught up in this unexpected vacuum except me, talked their new cell-phones on fire. Then back on the track we jumped and continued to midnite. Long story short - Human perception is highly relative - of course it is - and some people are downright dog-sharp. How many among 5000 would have heard this detail - shall we say nil. He for some reason did. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 . IMO the sound of a guitar can change over time - affected by temp, humidity, playing time and age. Call it what you like - 'opening up', aging, whatever. Age and temperature affect the amount of crystallized resins in the guitar, and have recently become very popular with the proliferation of torrefied 'artificially aged' tops. I've had several guitars that had a sound change in their first year which could be called 'opening up'. I also have a gorgeous J-200 I purchased new that had a bit of choke/muffle/constrainment in the sound. The guitar came with a bone nut, tusq saddle and plastic pins. After about 6 months or so of waiting for it to 'open up', I changed the saddle and pins to bone which helped a bit, but the sound was still constrained somehow. It's so pretty I held on to it, hoping the sound wouldn't compel me to sell it. Then one day about a year and a half after purchase, the sound was there. Just like that - open, clear high end, strong full low end, and very responsive to touch/force. I'm not suggesting waiting that long for a guitar to 'open up', it's just one of those curious/interesting progressions that fit into this thread. It's funny how it works. On a lark, in the 70s, I acquired a cheap Yamaha classical guitar - laminate sides, cedar top. Didn't sound like much, but for me it was a 'no worries beater'. I still have it all these years later and these days it sounds good - much better than you might expect for a cheap 40 year old beater. . . B) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Putting all the subjective opinons aside, the market doesn't seem to agree with this premise. Or, at least, the market doesn't assign any premium to whatever improves about a guitar over the near term. If it did, then why wouldn't a 5 year old guitar in good condition be worth more than a new one? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priority Four Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Some of my guitars changed more than others with time. I would say that all of them were "all grown up" at about a year old. There was generally more low end to some degree or another, but they all became more responsive. I would also say that the way I would play a particular guitar would evolve and that made a much bigger difference in the overall sound of the guitar than whatever was going on with the wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I believe the following to be true, especially for Gibson acoustic: As the nitro dries and ages over time, so does the tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 .I've had several guitars that had a sound change in their first year which could be called 'opening up'. I also have a gorgeous J-200 I purchased new that had a bit of choke/muffle/constrainment in the sound. The guitar came with a bone nut, tusq saddle and plastic pins. After about 6 months or so of waiting for it to 'open up', I changed the saddle and pins to bone which helped a bit, but the sound was still constrained somehow. It's so pretty I held on to it, hoping the sound wouldn't compel me to sell it. Then one day about a year and a half after purchase, the sound was there. Just like that - open, clear high end, strong full low end, and very responsive to touch/force. I'm not suggesting waiting that long for a guitar to 'open up', it's just one of those curious/interesting progressions that fit into this thread. I remember the incident from these pages - have mentioned it several times and am glad to see it repeated. It seems so logical to me that acoustic guitars should find themselves over time. The various components falling to place and learning to vibe. . On the poetical tangent, these developments is a part of the mystique and beauty by purchasing and getting to know a new guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainpicker Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 The finish dries and changes. The wood in the guitar dries out and changes. The wood soaks up moisture from the air and changes. I have an Eastman that opened up over the course of about a half an hour while I was playing it one evening. Other guitars I have changed but not as dramatically nor as fast. My ears are changing (and not for the better). I think Adirondack spruce takes longer to open up than Sitka spruce. Some days a guitar that sounded great to me last time I played it sounds kind of dull and blah. A week later it sounds good again. Overall though I'd have to say that all of my guitars sound better after owning and playing them for years. The thing that seems to have the most change going on when it comes to guitars and how they sound, and duluthdan touched on this in an earlier thread, is me, the player. But I'm 100% sure that acoustic guitars open up over time but not 100% of all acoustic guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Sure they do. With new guitars initially it is not as much opening up as curing. As has been said, it just takes a guitar a bit to figure out it is no longer a tree. The most common theory is that as resins in the wood crystallize over time it breaks down/loosens up the grain. This, in theory, allows the top to vibrate more freely as it loses stiffness. Problem is it is like watching your kids grow. You don't really see them changing in daily basis. I gather the tonerite gizmo can loosen up the grain but the thing is it will settle right back in after you stop using it. Basically nothing you can do but let Mother Nature do her thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 As wood ages, its bound moisture evaporates. Bound moisture is different from the moisture that goes in and out of the guitar as it "breathes". . You have been reading booteek builder Terry McInturff's stuff on "free" and "bound" moisture haven't ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Putting all the subjective opinons aside, the market doesn't seem to agree with this premise. Or, at least, the market doesn't assign any premium to whatever improves about a guitar over the near term. If it did, then why wouldn't a 5 year old guitar in good condition be worth more than a new one? ;) Hmmm, well I played a 1936 Gibson Jumbo today that was over $13k and a '56 J200 that was over $9k so there goes your theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse_Dylan Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 You have been reading booteek builder Terry McInturff's stuff on "free" and "bound" moisture haven't ya. Nope! Don't know where I first saw those terms. I don't think it's much different than the crystalization process you were talking about, though. The guitar top is basically a drum, and the more taut and dry yet flexible it is, the better drum it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I like posts like this. I too am skeptical of certain things... well, most things in life. And sound is such a bizarre thing, because human beings do not actually have the capacity to remember sound. We remember how we felt when we heard a certain sound, or we translate it otherwise into something we can remember, but the sound itself? No way. We "remember" sounds for a few seconds, at best. When you hear a familiar sound, the sound itself is not familiar to you; what's familiar is how the sound affects you. The human brain can't record sounds, and when we hear sounds in our head (such as how I'm hearing my voice right now as I type this), it's more like a simulation. Our brain is not playing back a recording, nor actually making any sounds. (I know, I am stating the obvious.) (I am not a scientist and could be wrong about any or all of the above. Then again, scientists can be, and frequently are, wrong about plenty, too.) ... The contrary seems to be right, even for the average human being. In fact most of us have an exceptional memory for sounds though lots of people become aware of that on rare occasions only. However, the very point in a musician's real life can be recreating them as far as possible - an often impossible issue. This does not mean reproducing via playback which is a relatively easy task. Humans in general are even able to reproduce volume settings with a resolution of only some tenth of a decibel, after minutes as well as after weeks or months. The recreation problem may depend on lots of factors. When about playing guitars, some are in our control like precise setup and precise tuning - I call the latter usually "recording grade" meaning reference pitch as well as all of the open string pitches. Others may vary like temperature, humidity, and acoustical environment. The diffuse field of the latter is affected by temperature and humidity like our subjective well-being. Sound propagation is dispersive and dissipative, and both these properties depend on the environment like the speed of sound. Strictly spoken, the diffuse soundfield is not just affected, it is created through them. The tuning point should be well estimated. Deviations of only a few cents of absolute pitch affect our moods as well as changes in inharmonicities through specific flat or sharp notes. Back to the breaking-in topic. To my experiences, very-short-term changes of guitar tones depend on things like restringing, setting up, and tuning. Performing these steps in reverse order will reverse the changes, too. "Medium-term changes" so to say are a story in itself which I write about further down. Long-term changes do happen, but are poorly predictable. This means the kind of changes as well their extent. The next paragraph is about electrics only. Among my guitars and basses, by far the most of them solidbodies (sic!), most of a long-term tonal development happened to the two with basswood body and maple neck. One is my Ibanez RG 430 RR guitar built in 1986 with a rosewood fretboard, the other one my Ibanez BL 700 NT bass with one-piece-maple neck. They both have a smoother attack now and despite of fret wear allow for faster action. It took over ten years for both of them until the changes were obvious. All of my other instruments of various price range remained nearly unchanged, and I still use same brand and make of strings, and I refer to same make of picks as well here. I have to admit that I bought my Gibson S-G Standard three years and 352 days old used from a former bandmate, but according to the newer SGs of mine I guess there didn't happen that much. In case you may have wondered about my wording "medium-term changes", here's the explanation. I use it rather than breaking-in for two reasons. First, breaking-in sounds rather violent, in particular compared to what happened to the wood between chopping the trees and finishing the newly built instrument. Second, I found it also happens to a guitar on the shelf which - mostly due to their number - all of mine are 23+ hours per day. Lots of these changes may have to do with the adaption to the new environment since next to all of my instruments experienced an extensive shipment at a very young age. These changes also include the apparently most immmediate parts of an instrument's environment which are string makes and gauges, and tunings. In my opinion, typical signs are stabilization of adjustments, in particular neck relief and as intonation settings. (At this point I exclude strap settings expressively. ;) ) Fortunately I can say that none of my instruments got worse, most changed for better to my senses, and some are just slightly different. Again I have to admit that none of the changes disappointed me though it could have happened, depending on taste, and therefore might happen to others. Here are some descriptions to illustrate what I mean. Those who are interested in acoustic guitars exclusively may omit the following - it's about electrics only. Several different Gibson Les Paul guitars of mine partly developed the same way, partly different ways during their first two to five years. The tone of all of them grew less edgy and thus deeper. And here's about the differences: My Standard Plus increasingly emphasized odd-order harmonics, in particular 3rd order. The Quilt Top Standard developed a distinctive and compressed attack bite and became a 2nd order harmonic addict with few higher-order overtones. A massive Traditional intensified overtone projection and sustain. The CS Standard of mine just added seemingly infinite depth. She grew deeper and deeper while maintaining her clicking attack. Finally, the Alex Lifeson Axcess added some more of the smoothness she already featured. This may show why a player may either find a guitar growing on her/him or growing apart from her/him. I like the variations and the tonal subtleties they imply, but I think that being limited to one of them could be too limited. This could be an explanation why people like us become guitar addicts - perhaps we really are tone addicts looking for a needle in a haystack, or several particular ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 At this point, the only thing that is going to open up on my guitars is probably the back seam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 At this point, the only thing that is going to open up on my guitars is probably the back seam. Oh my God! I'm so sorry for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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