Great Tone... ?

[Watersilk]

I think we all agree that a good guitarist can make a relatively cheap instrument sound good, but while I agree that all tone is in the fingers, I believe you still need the right tools to let 'all' your input be heard.... a brilliant guitarist, a brilliant guitar, plus a brilliant amp produces stunning results.... or it should do.. shouldn't it?

 

I'm fascinated with the threads on this forum regarding mods, changes that make a guitar sound better, the writer so excited about the difference an aluminium stoptail makes... then someone writes in with the comment, "what good does it make, if the guitar is distorted and I'm playing in a venue with poor acoustics, no one can hear the difference....!!"

 

Are those who get so excited about making small changes to what is already a good instrument, just imagining a step up in tone, or sustain? Are we just cranky, and forgetting that improvements in playing skills is what it's all about?

 

I believe it's a combination of both...

 

The more I delve into this complex world of tone, the more I become disappointed with many professional guitarists who don't seem to worry about tone. Further, In my opinion, too many brilliant guitarists are lost in the mix, too many tracks, too many effects, lost in the so called wall of sound!

 

If any of you know some recorded music where the musicians are allowed to let their instruments do the talking, and cut through a simple mix, in the blues vein, please post your suggestion, however obscure the group may be. For me, it's time to go back to basics, less effects, less overdubbed tracks... more of a live sound, amp noise, vibrations from the drums.... not the sterile sound of an over produced, recorded studio sound, robbed of emotion, I'm looking for a more earthy real sound where the artists input shines through, mistakes and all.

 

Are most professional musicians afraid to be exposed? Are all the effects, distortion and overdubbing there on purpose to camouflage their inadequate playing skills?

 

 

For those who haven't listened to this, watch this YouTube video:

 

Doug and Pat P90 Shootout. They fool around a bit, then the first guitar clip, a 1954 Les Paul, for me, the sheer brilliance of playing, the guitar, the amp, it all comes together, it's shocking!!! I'm so emotionally overcome I have to reach for the stop button to gather breath to continue; if I could ever get anywhere near this standard of playing and tone I would be so unbelievably happy!

 

Apparently, no effects, just guitar and amp!

 

 

 

 

For something a little different, with some subtle effects:

 

 

Matt Hines plays Marshall Bluesbreaker Combo pt.1

 

 

 

 

Perhaps I'm just one of the cranky ones!

[cody78]

For me, I really don't like modding guitars and all my guitars are as they were when they were purchased (yes, from expensive to even the cheap ones). I always believe tone is more about the player than the instrument, but then I'm a big jazz fan and a lot of jazzers leave their instruments alone when it comes to mods. Why buy a £2000- £8000 guitar then change everything? Seems a bit crazy to me. Some people seem as if they would change pickups, pots, electronics, tuners, necks, bodies lol! The funny thing is, is that tone is subjective anyway. A certain tone may be great to one person and suck to another. Most musicians ears are shot from tinnitus anyway, so how on earth they even can hear a good tone anymore is beyond me!

[saturn]

I'm going to respond to the "tone" question, when I have a little more time.

 

But for now, I have to figure out how to expand your Avatar picture.

[sparquelito]

I salute watersilk's original posting, and his well-crafted exploration of the nature of tone.

 

In my observation, and judging strictly from my own experience, tone is 80% in the hands of the player, 10% in the type and quality of the amplifier, and 10% can be affected by the type and quality of the guitar's pickups.

 

I do agree with cody78 on a couple of points;

I do not care much for modifying guitars, as a general rule.

And it is true that many performing musicians suffer from hearing loss.

 

More to the point, only a small percentage of the average audience (in any give bar or club) can truly appreciate the difference between a good tone and a bad one.

Most casual listeners just don't have a very discerning ear.

 

 

And I agree with saturn as well.

I really would like to see a much larger version of that avatar.

[Karloff]

I'm going to respond to the "tone" question, when I have a little more time.

 

But for now, I have to figure out how to expand your Avatar picture.

 

lol +1

[Karloff]

the tone you seek / wind up with, so many factors come into play. in no specific order : the guitar you choose, the pickups, the amp, the speaker in the amp, the type of tubes, the type of pick if any, the gauge strings, the sound in your head that drives you to twist away at the knobs on the amp & guitar, your hands.

things like oxygen free cables are just modern day snake oil IMHO.

[charlie brown]

Like most things in life, one's own definition of "good/great tone," seems to change over time.

And, it can be defined, by the overall sound of a genre (Blues tone, Jazz tone, Country tone),

a player, or even a band's sound/tone. "Beatles" Tone, Hendrix's tone, Clapton's tone, Bloomfield's

tone, Montgomery's tone, even things like what's been described as Clapton's "woman tone"...etc., etc., etc.

 

It's often defined by what WE are trying to achieve, rather than in any general sense, as well.

Then, we come to instrument, or amp tone. Fender tone (guitars and amps), Marshall tone, Orange Tone,

HiWatt tone, Vox tone, Les Paul, SG, ES-335, P-90, Humbucker, single coil "Tone!" Even acoustic...Gibson,

Martin tone, etc.

 

None of which matters, unless someone can really "PLAY!" Then, you notice their playing first, and foremost,

and which guitar or amp their using, secondary, at best...IMHO. But, touting specific guitar, pickup, and

amp tones does SELL a lot of instruments, and amps, pedals, and pickups, AKA "Gear!"

 

So, yes...it is quite subjective, and (mostly) COMMERCE!

 

CB

[Watersilk]

I'm going to respond to the "tone" question, when I have a little more time.

 

But for now, I have to figure out how to expand your Avatar picture.

 

Saturn, have you any idea how long it took for the photographer to take that photo? Move your arm a little this way, look to the right a little more, etc, etc, all the time I was *!@**? freezing! I thought the picture would distract a little from guitars.... but it seems to be the main distraction, I even had a request for a larger sized image from one member.... probably to aid another member.... anyway, this size suits me, I don't feel comfortable with a larger image...

 

I hope my image doesn't alter the 'tone' of the thread.... ;)

 

Hey, a beautiful looking guitar in 'your' avatar!

[capmaster]

There's only one kind of amplification I love all of my guitars and basses with, no matter if piezo or magnetic pickups, and regardless of pickup selector positions: straight through a full-range acoustic amp. Alternatively, a good mixing board with a hi-Z input will do.

 

To me any electric guitar amp including overdrive and the speakers used is just a flavour to match a song of a certain style and a particular pickup position.

[Rabs]

Yeah.. I think the main factor in all this is that our tastes constantly change...

 

So you have your amp set up one way and you love it, then all of a sudden one day you feel its not sounding right and then the right tone is on different settings...

 

So I think actually its down to the individual and what their current taste is at any given moment.....

 

In many ways its all pretty irrelevant..... As long as you don't sound like several cats fighting or someone scraping their fingernails down a blackboard then whatever whatever I say :)

 

Theres also the grass is greener effect.. So like say you base your tone on a LP with a Marshall (like me :)) cos you like the fat sounds.. Then you hear a Tele played through a Twin Reverb and go ohhhhh that's so sparkly I want that sound :) You cant ever win, but I think its all part of the fun.. The trick is not really to worry about it and just go with the flow

 

(or to go out and buy one of everything so you can match the gear with your mood :D)

[skilsaw]

How about great tone on an acoustic? Take the amp out of the equation.

80% guitarist, 20% instrument?

[Karloff]

are we talking about chops or tone ? of course the 1st thing we notice is if someone can play. but a strat doesnt sound like a les paul, a fender twin doesnt sound like a marshall. Clapton during the Mayall / Cream years does not have the same tone of the Clapton of the Dominos. same fingers & strings ... good tone , bad tone is subjective. I think Satriani is a great guitarist but I don't like his tone.

[Rabs]

are we talking about chops or tone ? of course the 1st thing we notice is if someone can play. but a strat doesnt sound like a les paul, a fender twin doesnt sound like a marshall. Clapton during the Mayall / Cream years does not have the same tone of the Clapton of the Dominos. same fingers & strings ... good tone , bad tone is subjective. I think Satriani is a great guitarist but I don't like his tone.

Well the way I see it..

 

Tone does also come from technique, how you bend and vibrato and generally how you pick and stuff...

 

BUT the tone of what you are listening too is obviously going to be different depending on equipment..

 

So thus, a good player with good technique will always sound good in that aspect no matter what they are playing... but the tones they are producing depends on what equipment and settings are used which is what seems to constantly change and evolve during ones playing career. But a bad player with no technique is still going to sound bad, even if they have good tone while doing so (im just dithering now)

[capmaster]

... But a bad player with no technique is still going to sound bad, even if they have good tone while doing so (im just dithering now)

Nice gear nicely set will translate even bad notes - nicely

:P

[Karloff]

Nice gear nicely set will translate even bad notes - nicely

:P

 

lol, yes it will.

[surfpup]

Lots of stuff goes into a players "tone". And yeah, the player and his or her fingers are the primary thing. Amps and guitars and pedals and stuff provide the minority of the tone, but that's the part you can tweak and purchase and discuss, eh?

 

To me a good tone is one where I can adjust the gain by adjusting my attack. If it's super clean no matter how hard I hit it, it's too clean. If it's distorted no matter how lightly I pick, it's too distorted. A good tone is responsive and dynamic. I should be able to hear more treble if I pick near the bridge and less near the neck. It should respond to what I play.

[charlie brown]

Lots of stuff goes into a players "tone". And yeah, the player and his or her fingers are the primary thing. Amps and guitars and pedals and stuff provide the minority of the tone, but that's the part you can tweak and purchase and discuss, eh?

 

To me a good tone is one where I can adjust the gain by adjusting my attack. If it's super clean no matter how hard I hit it, it's too clean. If it's distorted no matter how lightly I pick, it's too distorted. A good tone is responsive and dynamic. I should be able to hear more treble if I pick near the bridge and less near the neck. It should respond to what I play.

 

Yeah, I love to set my overdrive/distorion pedals, to do just that! It's (sometimes) amazing, how little distortion

I dial up, on the pedal. Sometimes, none at all. With some, there's enough "drive" with the "Drive" all the way off.

So, it acts (kinda) like a clean boost, but with still a fair amount of "Grit," beyond the amp's sweet spot. I just

push up the volume, on the pedal, adjust the tone (to mach the amp's natural tone, at it's own sweet spot), and...

as Jackie Gleason used to say: "Away, We Go!!'

 

CB

[saturn]

I think we all agree that a good guitarist can make a relatively cheap instrument sound good, but while I agree that all tone is in the fingers, I believe you still need the right tools to let 'all' your input be heard.... a brilliant guitarist, a brilliant guitar, plus a brilliant amp produces stunning results.... or it should do.. shouldn't it?

 

I'm fascinated with the threads on this forum regarding mods, changes that make a guitar sound better, the writer so excited about the difference an aluminium stoptail makes... then someone writes in with the comment, "what good does it make, if the guitar is distorted and I'm playing in a venue with poor acoustics, no one can hear the difference....!!"

 

Are those who get so excited about making small changes to what is already a good instrument, just imagining a step up in tone, or sustain? Are we just cranky, and forgetting that improvements in playing skills is what it's all about?

 

I believe it's a combination of both...

 

The more I delve into this complex world of tone, the more I become disappointed with many professional guitarists who don't seem to worry about tone. Further, In my opinion, too many brilliant guitarists are lost in the mix, too many tracks, too many effects, lost in the so called wall of sound!

 

If any of you know some recorded music where the musicians are allowed to let their instruments do the talking, and cut through a simple mix, in the blues vein, please post your suggestion, however obscure the group may be. For me, it's time to go back to basics, less effects, less overdubbed tracks... more of a live sound, amp noise, vibrations from the drums.... not the sterile sound of an over produced, recorded studio sound, robbed of emotion, I'm looking for a more earthy real sound where the artists input shines through, mistakes and all.

 

Are most professional musicians afraid to be exposed? Are all the effects, distortion and overdubbing there on purpose to camouflage their inadequate playing skills?

 

 

 

First off, I wouldn't say that any professional musicians have inadequate playing skills. If they've made it to a point where a producer is willing to record them, and a record company is willing to promote them, I have to think they have skills regardless of what someone may think about their "tone".

 

But, I do get the point you are making in your post. More than other instruments, or even human voice, it seems the guitar has so many variables to affect the tone. There's the strings, fretboard, pick-ups, wood....amp's tubes, speakers, cabinet,...the player... are they using a pick or fingers, how hard is their attack? Are they strumming or muting????? so many things to consider.... what makes a good or bad tone?

 

It is mostly subjective. I think the genre of "rock" is where guitar tone comes into play the most. Rock might not be the most technically complex music, but with all the sub-genres it's probably the most sonically diverse.

 

IMO, the "best" guitar tone is a good guitar played through a fairly naturally distorted stack amplifier. And it's recorded in such a way that all the parts are articulate, with all the individual notes can be heard clearly, not mushed together.

 

As a great example, I would give an old hair-metal song by KIX called "Yeah yeah yeah". It's just a cheesy party song, but the guitars are recorded perfectly. You can hear all the individual notes and arpeggios, and can really hear the difference when the volume is rolled off or on. That's what great rock guitar tone is IMO.

 

 

Another song that I recently posted in another thread for this same reason was"Runaway" by Bon Jovi.

[Watersilk]

Yeah.. I think the main factor in all this is that our tastes constantly change...

 

So you have your amp set up one way and you love it, then all of a sudden one day you feel its not sounding right and then the right tone is on different settings...

 

So I think actually its down to the individual and what their current taste is at any given moment.....

 

In many ways its all pretty irrelevant..... As long as you don't sound like several cats fighting or someone scraping their fingernails down a blackboard then whatever whatever I say :)

 

Theres also the grass is greener effect.. So like say you base your tone on a LP with a Marshall (like me :)) cos you like the fat sounds.. Then you hear a Tele played through a Twin Reverb and go ohhhhh that's so sparkly I want that sound :) You cant ever win, but I think its all part of the fun.. The trick is not really to worry about it and just go with the flow

 

(or to go out and buy one of everything so you can match the gear with your mood :D)

 

Sorry Rabs, tone of course does have subtly different meanings.... I didn't mean tone in the sense of bass and treble, not the eq range, I meant it in the broader sense of the quality of sound, whatever that sound may be.

 

The richness, sensitivity, harmonics....timbre, tonality; collectively, the sound of the structure of a guitar, meaning the wood, the peculiar characteristics of the very wood your guitar is made from, the way the neck is joined to the body, the hardware including the strings, the electrics, including the characteristics of the pickups, the amp, the valves/tubes, the speakers..... or just the sound from an acoustic guitar played unplugged; above all, the input from the players fingers..... it's all those things that determine 'tone'.

 

Playing styles, instruments and amps apart, it doesn't matter about the genre, to a point.... I believe that tone should be a goal, whatever the sound you strive for; hey, otherwise we would sound like a couple of fighting cats...ha!

 

Saturn has a point, tone is subjective, in that we often have, or should have a tone we are striving for, but having said that, I think good tone is universally agreed by all who have some hearing left to judge... ?

 

Coming back to the Doug & Pat show... they sample different guitars and a few pickups, to my ears they all possess great tone, I think we would all agree on that point, one set may appeal to me, and another to you... for different reasons...that's the subjective part :)

[cody78]

I think good tone is universally agreed by all who have some hearing left to judge... ?

 

This is true for the most part (although I know some metal heads who think all tone is bad except that 'scooped out and way overdriven sound'... and vice versa, jazzers who hate the metal sound! I like both btw if done well) ...and despite my earlier post there are some players tones that stand out for me. I think one guy who really worked on his tone a lot in the 70's was Neil Young. He may not be the most gifted guitarist (in the sense of a lead player), but his tone is monumental with his Les Paul 'Old Black' through his old Fender Deluxe amps and custom made effects board thingy. His Les Paul sounds extra unique because it's equipped with a P-90 and a Firebird mini humbucker instead of 2 p-90's. Even though I don't like mods, his mini humbucker is pretty cool. In terms of blues, I think Gary Moore has a great tone on his 'Blues For Greeny' album. BB Kings tone is fantastic on all his late 60's through 70's records.

 

Also, from your original post, I do agree with you that too many records are over produced these days.

[cody78]

I think Satriani is a great guitarist but I don't like his tone.

 

Agree with you on that. Steve Vai, John Petrucci and a few others are the same. All great players, but with tones I don't like. Infact one very famous player who's tone is pretty awful, by being really thin at the bass end and far too contoured, is Kirk Hammett. I do like Metallica though and Satriani, Vai, Petrucci etc...just don't like their tones.

[stein]

I totally get what you are saying, Watersilk.

 

I think a lot of it is culture, the "guitarist" culture, recording and the engineers culture, the way we view each other, and perhaps all this leading to a different definition of the word "tone". Even to the point the very definition of the word is subjective.

 

Couple examples: a horn player starts with the thinnest reeds, because they are they easiest to play, and moves 'up' to thicker, harder to play reeds. Because it SOUNDS better.

 

Another example: me personally, if I have a GOOD amp, I find more use and meaning playing a simple chord than something that assist me in doing tricks or fancy fretwork. Thus, a good, sweet sounding amp is kinda a substitute, in that a really sweet, good sounding chord is often better. As opposed to playing 3 chords in the same space, assisted by an un-dynamic, flat sounding amp that hides my inability to execute the 3 chords cleanly.

 

As for recording, the culture of "fixing it in the mix", or having it be the job of the recording engineer and producer to make an artist sound good. As opposed to recording the artist as close to reality as possible, putting the pressure on the player to perform. Not the same, but similar to producing a "professional" recording with compression and mixing to hide mistakes and lack of ability, as opposed to a clear, accurate recording that captures the TALENT of the player.

 

This is going to be a fun thread.

[Mr. C.O. Jones]

Agree with you on that. Steve Vai, John Petrucci and a few others are the same. All great players, but with tones I don't like. Infact one very famous player who's tone is pretty awful, by being really thin at the bass end and far too contoured, is Kirk Hammett. I do like Metallica though and Satriani, Vai, Petrucci etc...just don't like their tones.

 

Funny, Satriani was Hammet's guitar teacher at one moment.

That could explain a lot.

 

And I really enjoyed seeing Satriani perform, he is a master, a true fretboard acrobat.

 

But one single note played by Peter Green means more to me than Satrianis entire performance.

 

It's raw technique vs. soulful playing.

 

For me that's where TONE is.

[Watersilk]

This is true for the most part (although I know some metal heads who think all tone is bad except that 'scooped out and way overdriven sound'... and vice versa, jazzers who hate the metal sound! I like both btw if done well) ...and despite my earlier post there are some players tones that stand out for me. I think one guy who really worked on his tone a lot in the 70's was Neil Young. He may not be the most gifted guitarist (in the sense of a lead player), but his tone is monumental with his Les Paul 'Old Black' through his old Fender Deluxe amps and custom made effects board thingy. His Les Paul sounds extra unique because it's equipped with a P-90 and a Firebird mini humbucker instead of 2 p-90's. Even though I don't like mods, his mini humbucker is pretty cool. In terms of blues, I think Gary Moore has a great tone on his 'Blues For Greeny' album. BB Kings tone is fantastic on all his late 60's through 70's records.

 

Also, from your original post, I do agree with you that too many records are over produced these days.

 

Hey, funny that you should mention Neil Young, I think he is keen to keep things simple, he made a whole album with his group, rather than split up in a sterile studio, 'Ragged Glory' it's definitely ragged, feedback too, but it sounds like a one take live recording in his own studio.... I love it, and yes, his guitar has tone.... ! Gary Moore, yes, again, a tone chaser, I think Peter Greene was even better at extracting tone out of that same Les Paul. BB King too, he had tone in his fingers... ha! In the same genre Joe Bonamassa is another tone seeker, I have a pair of his pickups on order from Seymour Duncan, I cant wait to see what i can get out of them, I've read that they are quite sensitive, while they respond well to your input, they also expose any sloppy playing too... they should help me to be a better player!

 

I love Metallica too.... who played lead on "Nothing Else Matters"?

 

Dorian Sorriaux could be worth watching, still a teenager, playing with Blues Pills.... ? He plays an amazing-looking Les Paul style guitar.... whisper it now.. made by Corsa, with P90's..... I'm so jealous.....

[Watersilk]

Funny, Satriani was Hammet's guitar teacher at one moment.

That could explain a lot.

 

And I really enjoyed seeing Satriani perform, he is a master, a true fretboard acrobat.

 

But one single note played by Peter Green means more to me than Satrianis entire performance.

 

It's raw technique vs. soulful playing.

 

For me that's where TONE is.

 

Hahahahaha! Yes, yes, yes!!!! There are some guys that rattle off notes as fast as a machine gun..... but where is the tone....??? Peter Greene, surely a master of tone... especially on the live performances.... I agree with Stein, it seems that on live performances brilliant guitarists really excel, the sound engineers and producer don't have the same control .... actually that goes for any musicians... whatever the instrument.... I think Smoke On The Water is a good example, listen to the studio track, then the live track on 'Made In Japan'.... the whole group are playing off each other.... it's dynamic, it sounds so much fuller, and as you say... more soulful.... and I think more tonality too.... well, just my opinion... :)