kidblast Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I'm going to respond to the "tone" question, when I have a little more time. But for now, I have to figure out how to expand your Avatar picture. hahaha! priceless.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Then, there's the question of "Great" Tone, or Preferred Tone? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Then, there's the question of "Great" Tone, or Preferred Tone? CB One and the same. The one I prefer is great. The one I don't prefer is not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drog Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Great tone is one that inspires you to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 ... In the same genre Joe Bonamassa is another tone seeker, I have a pair of his pickups on order from Seymour Duncan, I cant wait to see what i can get out of them, I've read that they are quite sensitive, while they respond well to your input, they also expose any sloppy playing too... they should help me to be a better player! ... Interestingly Joe Bonamassa uses Electro Voice EVM 12 L speakers in his live rig exclusively as I recently found out. This is what I use since 1982. They are very sensitive to any change in strings, picking, and both guitar and amp tone control settings. Their transparency reveals everything, for good and for bad. I tried several sorts of Celestions over the years, but compared to the EVM 12 Ls they just sound muddy. Then, there's the question of "Great" Tone, or Preferred Tone? CB One and the same. The one I prefer is great. The one I don't prefer is not great. Great tone is one that inspires you to play. You're spot on, Drog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yeah, that's really what it's all about...the tone YOU prefer! Of course, if everyone (audiences and other musicians alike) that you encounter "hates" your tone... then, maybe? it's time to rethink it? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Yeah, that's really what it's all about...the tone YOU prefer! Of course, if everyone (audiences and other musicians alike) that you encounter "hates" your tone... then, maybe? it's time to rethink it? CB Yep - there might be things beyond the infamous "fix in the mix" ;) Billy Gibbons has a special sort of rig delivering the same sort of sound to him on stage regardless of guitar, using lots of programmed equalizers levelling the gain, too. Then there are two separate amps with one 12" speaker each which are mic'd to provide the FOH sound. A solution not feasible for everybody. It takes a separate technician and circa 30 units of 19" rack height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I think tone is an illusive thing. So many things can influence it. But, I think that music is music, and tone is one thing a musician uses to express his/her message. I tend to play and listen to more jazz. Jazzers are the most arrogant group there is, and most often, players and listeners have an expectation for a conformity to a narrower tonal range for guitar players (as well as to an expectation of a sophistication that is at a "higher" level than, say, pop). I say, do what you do, sound how you want to sound to best relate/project your art. Spend less time on your sound and more on your technique, and play in the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matiac Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Tools aside, tone, or a lack of same, comes from the heart, transmitted through the players fingers. Some of the 'best' players to me, sound 'mechanical', and contrived...no emotion. And music in general is supposed to be manna for the soul. Jimmy's sound on the Lead break in 'Whole Lotta Love' is a sound I've been chasing for years, to someone else it might not have the same 'pull' on them it has on me. So it would suffice to say that 'tone' is a very subjective...subject, and would fall on the individual listener. And while yes, it IS true to a certain degree that quality gear would make the endeavor easier, or 'sound' better, it's not the sole reason for tone, or lack thereof. You can put lipstick on a pig, but you still got a pig. I find with my own playing, that I can get the same basic tone using two completely different guitars through the same set up, which for me kinda negates the belief that equipment is the sole and only source of tone. If you were to give, say, Duane Allman a cheap, beat-to-crap Teisco, he's gonna pretty much sound the same...it's all in the end result of what we, as individuals hear in a given piece of music...I'm thinking it would be nigh-on impossible to achieve a certain tone, just by virtue of the room you're in, how it's been recorded, state of mind at the time...these are things that are damned hard to duplicate regarding sound. Sometimes you can make it sound similar, but it'll NEVER be same way twice. But for me, that's half the fun when I play (it SHOULD be fun), is to sound like a particular person on a non-typical song (sounding like Jimi Hendrix while playing Green Grass And High Tides Forever), and you recognize it immediately...I get a pretty big kick outta that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hey, funny that you should mention Neil Young, I think he is keen to keep things simple, he made a whole album with his group, rather than split up in a sterile studio, 'Ragged Glory' it's definitely ragged, feedback too, but it sounds like a one take live recording in his own studio.... I love it, and yes, his guitar has tone.... ! Gary Moore, yes, again, a tone chaser, I think Peter Greene was even better at extracting tone out of that same Les Paul. BB King too, he had tone in his fingers... ha! In the same genre Joe Bonamassa is another tone seeker, I have a pair of his pickups on order from Seymour Duncan, I cant wait to see what i can get out of them, I've read that they are quite sensitive, while they respond well to your input, they also expose any sloppy playing too... they should help me to be a better player! I love Metallica too.... who played lead on "Nothing Else Matters"? Dorian Sorriaux could be worth watching, still a teenager, playing with Blues Pills.... ? He plays an amazing-looking Les Paul style guitar.... whisper it now.. made by Corsa, with P90's..... I'm so jealous..... I'll have to check out the Blues Pills, I haven't heard of them. Neil's 'Ragged Glory' is one of my favourites and I don't think tone gets much better than the intro to 'White Line' - a big grungy, country-rock racket! I like Bonamassa and those pickups of his sound interesting, but I assume he doesn't use them in his original LP's though? Just his signature guitars perhaps?...and ah yes, 'Nothing Else Matters', one of Hammett's more emotive solos, but wait...it was Hetfield. I always though it was funny one of the stand out solos (in terms of feeling) was played by Hetfield! As I mentioned earlier, I am a big jazz fan and play that style mainly, for example I love Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, Wes Montgomery etc. and their clean archtop tones, but I was raised on rock, grunge, blues and metal and still listen to it a lot and play it a fair bit too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Great tone is one that inspires you to play. snap! I may be completely alone in this, but a poor sound will limit my technique. I used to play in the host 'band' on some jam session nights. The nasty equipment we used meant that it was pointless trying to do lots of stuff. fingerpick = mud speedpick = sticky mud sweeps = (see 'fingerpick') This confined me to a limited technique. To attempt anything else was futile. Solos were still ok, but constrained. But as Drog says, the other side of this coin is that great tone can inspire. I would add to that; liberate your playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watersilk Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 I think tone is an illusive thing. So many things can influence it. But, I think that music is music, and tone is one thing a musician uses to express his/her message. I tend to play and listen to more jazz. Jazzers are the most arrogant group there is, and most often, players and listeners have an expectation for a conformity to a narrower tonal range for guitar players (as well as to an expectation of a sophistication that is at a "higher" level than, say, pop). I say, do what you do, sound how you want to sound to best relate/project your art. Spend less time on your sound and more on your technique, and play in the moment. Being a decent guitarist is eluding me at the moment... but I would hate to think that tone is also an elusive thing..... I'm finding my own way in this, my approach, right or wrong, is to get the guitar to ring, improving the string vibration through the structure of the guitar, the main culprits that often spoil the party are the nut and bridge, which can either rob or improve tone, then the electrics..... to ensure that the hardware improvements are getting through to the amp... making the guitar more responsive to my inputs; then the difficult and most important part as you point out.... playing 'technique', but at least I can then hear when I get something right.... and the tone does push me to try harder and enjoy the moment... :) The trouble is that working on the dynamics of a guitar can become an obsession.... when playing should be the obsession ha! Dorian Sorriaux... of Blues Pills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Tools aside, tone, or a lack of same, comes from the heart, transmitted through the players fingers. Some of the 'best' players to me, sound 'mechanical', and contrived...no emotion. And music in general is supposed to be manna for the soul. Jimmy's sound on the Lead break in 'Whole Lotta Love' is a sound I've been chasing for years, to someone else it might not have the same 'pull' on them it has on me. So it would suffice to say that 'tone' is a very subjective...subject, and would fall on the individual listener. And while yes, it IS true to a certain degree that quality gear would make the endeavor easier, or 'sound' better, it's not the sole reason for tone, or lack thereof. You can put lipstick on a pig, but you still got a pig. I find with my own playing, that I can get the same basic tone using two completely different guitars through the same set up, which for me kinda negates the belief that equipment is the sole and only source of tone. If you were to give, say, Duane Allman a cheap, beat-to-crap Teisco, he's gonna pretty much sound the same...it's all in the end result of what we, as individuals hear in a given piece of music...I'm thinking it would be nigh-on impossible to achieve a certain tone, just by virtue of the room you're in, how it's been recorded, state of mind at the time...these are things that are damned hard to duplicate regarding sound. Sometimes you can make it sound similar, but it'll NEVER be same way twice. But for me, that's half the fun when I play (it SHOULD be fun), is to sound like a particular person on a non-typical song (sounding like Jimi Hendrix while playing Green Grass And High Tides Forever), and you recognize it immediately...I get a pretty big kick outta that... I think you are describing "style" as well as "tone". Which I think is IMPORTANT when discussing the subject, especially the way us guitar players often think of tone. I think the line gets blurred, when considering how an individual will USE a particular piece of equipment. Such as changing amp settings or using different pickups and such in a particular person's approach, chosen according to how he is going to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The trouble is that working on the dynamics of a guitar can become an obsession.... when playing should be the obsession ha! Well, as mentioned before, the concept of "tone" is hard to define, or at least, the term is used differently by different people. But I think that the way a person plays and the dynamics he uses and the technique employed would have to be included in what defines a person's tone. Certainly, a person's equipment is a large part of a person's tone, although in my mind, that determines a person's "sound." The way that a person's brain interacts with his dexterity and the way he produces a note largely determines a person's "tone." That is technique. What often blows me away is not just person's ability to produce a pleasing riff, or variation of a musical idea, but often the passing tones and subtle notes played around the main melody notes- slides, hammer ons/pull offs, vibrato, bends, etc.; the way a person swings or lets notes ring- these are all things that determine tone, and what differentiates a good guitarist from a great one, IMO. To me, a talented guitarist is one who has a natural feel in their use of dynamics and can project that naturally. So, back to the OP, and in an attempt to define "tone," TONE= SOUND + TECHNIQUE... maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matiac Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Tone and style are close cousins, method of attack, yes, even pick size and texture (Billy G. uses coins for a reason) all play into what's regarded as 'tone'. I recently got a bunch of picks made of different types of exotic wood, and between those, and a standard Tortex, among others, the tone is markedly noticeable. The wood lends a much thicker, darker tone, and even among those, there's a difference to my ear. But it still boils down to the individual player, and their definition of tone. So many factors play into the equation that it would be difficult to nail down one aspect as the sole source...but in my view, the player is 99.9999999% of how that guitar's going to sound, I've heard awesome tone from a Squier Strat into a battery powered Pignose...it's in the ear of the beholder ultimately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 , I've heard awesome tone from a Squier Strat into a battery powered Pignose...it's in the ear of the beholder ultimately... A Squier Strat can sound really good. A local alt. rock band here in Yorkshire used to use them through Marshall JCM800's and sounded excellent. Also, I used to use a Squier Strat a lot while I was a music student and they sounded good enough for performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I could argue talk about this topic till the cows come home. And frequently do. So this time I won't. ...Nice gear nicely set will translate even bad notes - nicely... Oddly enough I disagree with the ultimate result of this posit, Cap...... I say, do what you do, sound how you want to sound to best relate/project your art. Spend less time on your sound and more on your technique, and play in the moment. I agree with this and I'd go on to say "Once you have a consumate understanding of 'Technique' then re-visit 'Tone' to further refine your power of expression". Dorian Sorriaux could be worth watching, still a teenager, playing with Blues Pills.... ? He plays an amazing-looking Les Paul style guitar.... whisper it now.. made by Corsa, with P90's..... I'm so jealous..... Beautiful snap & guitar, Watersilk. Thanks for posting. I'll have to check the 'Blues Pills' out. I don't know if you were familiar with our old friend & forumite hereabouts Jimi Mac? He was the very fortunate chap who managed to acquire the Larry Corsa / Manalishi DCL 001 Double-Cut guitar around about this time last year. Here's a post you might find diverting; http://forum.gibson....corsa+manalishi Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 1447021785[/url]' post='1709906']Well the way I see it.. Tone does also come from technique, how you bend and vibrato and generally how you pick and stuff... BUT the tone of what you are listening too is obviously going to be different depending on equipment.. So thus, a good player with good technique will always sound good in that aspect no matter what they are playing... but the tones they are producing depends on what equipment and settings are used which is what seems to constantly change and evolve during ones (But a bad player with no technique is still going to sound bad, even if they have good tone while doing so) Ok Rabs, you don't have to rub it in! Lol. I know I'm a bad player. So if I don't have it in the fingers, would a better amp help? I'm seeking for that ring, that makes the guitar note ring out for awhile. I have a Gib. GTS, it sounds good, but just doesn't carry the sound. When I was a kid I had a super expensive amp for the time, and it would carry the note and ring forever, even on very cheap guitars. I was thinking My cheap 100.00 Vox amp. Or is it both, my amp and lousy fingers and I'll always be a bad player? Wait, don't answer that, . I did like the avatar picture too, that should count! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vangoghsear Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Nice gear nicely set will translate even bad notes - nicely :P This is one of the drawbacks of boutique amps. A high quality amp can have more clarity and mistakes are nice and clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanHenry Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I believe players tone is heavily influenced by the guitarists they listened to when the were learning/growing up. My own influences were Cream era Clapton, Kossoff & Green and no matter how much I may try to change my sound I invariably levitate back to those type of tones. I think it becomes part of your DNA. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 A Squier Strat can sound really good. A local alt. rock band here in Yorkshire used to use them through Marshall JCM800's and sounded excellent. Also, I used to use a Squier Strat a lot while I was a music student and they sounded good enough for performances. Well I once had a Squire which I bought for £30 at a car boot sale... (ive given it to my nephew now) and it was surprisingly good for what it was.. I even made a video about it.... Here im playing it through my crappy little Marshall MG15 (£90 new)... And while its not a creamy sound (which it wouldn't be with that equipment (was recorded with camera mic only) I don't think it sounded that bad either... If this were my first guitar and amp it wouldn't be the worst place to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody78 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Well I once had a Squire which I bought for £30 at a car boot sale... (ive given it to my nephew now) and it was surprisingly good for what it was.. I even made a video about it.... Here im playing it through my crappy little Marshall MG15 (£90 new)... And while its not a creamy sound (which it wouldn't be with that equipment) I don't think it sounded that bad either... If this were my first guitar and amp it wouldn't be the worst place to start. Hi Rabs. Yeah, for the money they're pretty good and especially for £30 in your case! They used to have them as loan guitars when I was at Leeds College of Music a number of years ago; basically if you didn't bring your own guitar for one reason or another, you got either an Encore Strat or a Squier Strat to borrow. The Encores were terrible - bad intonation, awful sound, bad necks, but the Squiers I was impressed with, so much so I saw one at the time in Leeds on sale and picked it up. I was playing in a funk/ rock band at the time so thought it would be useful for that, as all I owned was a couple of Les Pauls back then. Anyway, I went on to study music down at Middlesex Uni a few years later and didn't want to use my Les Paul Classic or Studio all the time incase they got banged up, so used the Squier all through my student days. I think a lot of the other guitarists/ students thought I was odd for using a £99 guitar all the time, but it saved my nice guitars from getting ruined! I still have my Squier, but I tried to do a paint job/ refin on it and it turned out pretty bad, so I stripped it. Now it looks like a bad Rory Gallagher Strat attempt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I believe players tone is heavily influenced by the guitarists they listened to when the were learning/growing up. My own influences were Cream era Clapton, Kossoff & Green and no matter how much I may try to change my sound I invariably levitate back to those type of tones. I think it becomes part of your DNA. Ian Giddyup! I found that the stuff I listened to before I started ever playing influenced me tremendously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watersilk Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share Posted November 12, 2015 Oooh, I don\t know how to use multiple quotes... so I will copy and paste... Ian Henry "I believe players tone is heavily influenced by the guitarists they listened to when the were learning/growing up. My own influences were Cream era Clapton, Kossoff & Green and no matter how much I may try to change my sound I invariably levitate back to those type of tones. I think it becomes part of your DNA." But isn't this more of a type of 'sound' and style? Capmaster "...Nice gear nicely set will translate even bad notes - nicely..." I'm not sure about this one... I believe, perhaps I'm wrong here, in my experience... limited experience maybe.... ha, but the better the equipment, the more detail is brought out... the more revealing the sound is.... it will show up all the things you get right, and all the mistakes. I've cut things back to a minimum now, just for practice, minimum coloration, no effects.... plugging directly into a good acoustic amp.... sound quality is great... it's not the type of sound I want, but in my opinion great for practising, you have to really work at creating tone, with your fingers.... badly fretted notes are not hidden under the distortion... but that doesn't mean that distorted sound can't be good tone... I've heard amp valves/tubes pushed to their absolute limit and sound so creamy and wonderful.... I just think that playing clean allows you to hone your fingering style better... ?? I think if you have your fingering technique going well, then you can work on a certain 'sound'.... Rabs... I saw a guy play in a Scottish pub in Toronto, he had a Squire, he managed to squeeze tone out of it too... it sounded so good I even thought of buying one.... so what are we saying, brilliant players don't need expensive guitars to produce great tone... ? Vangoghsear "This is one of the drawbacks of boutique amps. A high quality amp can have more clarity and mistakes are nice and clear." Ha! Drawback or blessing? Zigzag "I say, do what you do, sound how you want to sound to best relate/project your art. Spend less time on your sound and more on your technique, and play in the moment." Yes, I think this is important, just concentrating on technique gets really boring, playing in the moment is fun, and I believe is what drives us on, I just think you need to clearly hear what you are doing... then the sound 'should' follow.... Retired "So thus, a good player with good technique will always sound good in that aspect no matter what they are playing... but the tones they are producing depends on what equipment and settings are used which is what seems to constantly change and evolve during ones (But a bad player with no technique is still going to sound bad, even if they have good tone while doing so) " Words of wisdom here... perhaps it's time for me to retire.... Pippy "I'll have to check the 'Blues Pills' out." The debut album was made using a few guitars, not the Corsa, I think he acquired that after the album was recorded. If you like early Fleetwood Mac, chances are you will enjoy Blues Pills. I think there are more than a few references to 'Then Play On'. Not fair at all to label them as some kind of tribute band though, I think that their music stands up for what it is.... ultimately, everyone is influenced by... someone... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV9XFldAi7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9y9fCZGHk4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Thanks for posting the clips, Watersilk. Good stuff. I can see the 'Then Play On' parallel but you are correct in that they are doing very much their own thing. When I've time I'll have to click on the 'whole album' icon in the youtube page. Cheers again. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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