Player grade vintage"…finally explained…..

[jdgm]

JDGM-you seem to be ignoring that there is a whole vintage guitar collector market place like any other collectible commodity that has standards, definitions, classifications, price guides, etc etc that it's participants have set. This is no different that civil war collectibles, automobile collectibles, sports collectibles, etc. To just label civil war memorabilia, auto, sports as just used stuff without acknowledging it has specific designations to it within its world of collectibles is as non-reality based as just calling all vintage guitars in the sphere of its collectible market place as just "used" is kind of a form of denial of what is and disrespectful to an entire industry. But, it's your choice to deny its existence. Many sell their used guitar to a vintage guitar collector at a dirt cheap price because it's just a used thing to the joy of many a vintage guitar collector. Would you be one of those one day when your fine Gibson ages? Or, will you suddenly then acknowledge its existence and legitimacy?

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

Sorry didn't mean to offend. Just a light-hearted comment.

 

But "player grade" - what is that supposed to mean? Either an instrument is in good enough condition to be played or it isn't.

And it doesn't matter how good a player you are....I hope!

Also, as L5Larry stated, 'vintage' is over-used and often wrongly used these days. Agree with that with and Jesse's post above.

There used to be a distinction in motor cars (can you tell I'm English?) between 'vintage' and 'veteran'.

 

As to the market for collectables generally, cars went right down in value before zooming up to present levels. Markets fluctuate according to circumstances.

I've met people who know much more than me about it, and who are of the opinion that the vintage guitar market is shrinking, partly because of the plethora of re-issues and the fact that fewer younger musicians can afford (or even care about) vintage instruments. For instance, when HJ took over Gibson in the 80s they started to produce 335s - not marketed as re-issues - which were extremely high quality - easily as good as any vintage 335. I'm not making this up and I'm not entirely ignorant about it either, having played for over 41 yrs and taught since the early 80s. In that time I have had the opportunity to play and examine many many instruments, vintage and new. No I'm not a vintage guitar expert, I am merely a player and teacher.

 

And I am a little suspicious of the description "player grade vintage" as it doesn't really tell me anything except the instrument is by definition USED and playable.

I don't think I'm being disrespectful to an entire industry or the admin at Reverb.com who presumably came up with this.

"Player grade", "utility grade", "collector grade", "beater grade" too....as many grades as you like.

 

B)

[tpbiii]

Collector Vintage

 

 

Player Vintage

 

 

Beater Vintage

 

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[tpbiii]

Collector Vintage

 

 

Demo

 

Player Vintage

 

 

Demo

 

Vintage beater

 

 

Demo1

Demo2

 

There is a correlation between grade and sound -- if that was not true, there would be much less interest in vintage -- but it is NOT A STRONG CORRELATION. Dealers would have you believe that more valuable guitars almost always sound better. Not true at all IME.

 

Best,

-Tom

[zombywoof]

I got this whole "player grade" guitar thing some 55 years ago. At the time they did not have the fancy moniker but I quickly figured out they were a whole lot cheaper than new guitars as well as used guitars in better shape. In the 1960s I owned a L-00 which had a big old top crack. I "fixed" it by drilling two small holes at either end of the crack (which I thought would keep it from spreading), plugging the holes and then coloring them with black India Ink, and then slathering on some Ducco. The scary thing is I have never stopped seeking them out. What has definitely changed though is I now know what I am looking at, what is original to the guitar and what is not, and what it will take to get them back on the road. Ain't life grand.

 

Just as a reminder, my last less than pristine player. You would not believe the deep discount binding popping off all over the place and those streaks caused by an off gassing pickguard brings with it. The only guitar I own with a name - "Bloody Mary."

 

[tpbiii]

We have yet another category --Junque. This are (usually cheap) instruments that do not call out to us as players and are not worth the money/effort to bring them to life. So why do we own them?

 

Decorations.

 

Here is a mixed bunch.

 

 

 

The 33 R-18 and 36 L-4 are serious guitars. The 18 L-1 and 33 Regal on the floor are couch guitars that do get used. The rest -- the Kays and the old Harmony -- decorate the stairwell.

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[zombywoof]

Junque. I love it. I have always called these guitars el cheapo chic. One of the big advantages of these instruments is I am more likely to mess around with them and alter them to get the instrument to give the best it has to give. I had no hesitancy in replacing the original spruce bridge plate with a maple one on my late 1930s Regal Jumbo 12 originally found sticking out of a trash can. Better for sound not to mention survival. I have another guitar - a Regal-made Oahu with a red spruce top and beautiful flamed maple body that is about to go from a floating bridge/tailpiece setup to a fixed pin bridge. Also a certain Harmony Sovereign which said bye bye to the original pinless bridge for a pin bridge (in this case a bridge off an old Guild). As I also have a 1950s Sovereign with the original bridge I had the opportunity to compare the two. The pin bridge wins hands down.

[slimt]

Every vintage guitar is player grade till you end up spending way to much money on it.. then it becomes a case guitar..

[bobouz]

I like them all - new, used, and any version of vintage one might choose.

 

It just depends on the particular instrument, and how connected I feel to it.

[Jesse_Dylan]

I got this whole "player grade" guitar thing some 55 years ago. At the time they did not have the fancy moniker but I quickly figured out they were a whole lot cheaper than new guitars as well as used guitars in better shape. In the 1960s I owned a L-00 which had a big old top crack. I "fixed" it by drilling two small holes at either end of the crack (which I thought would keep it from spreading), plugging the holes and then coloring them with black India Ink, and then slathering on some Ducco. The scary thing is I have never stopped seeking them out. What has definitely changed though is I now know what I am looking at, what is original to the guitar and what is not, and what it will take to get them back on the road. Ain't life grand.

 

Just as a reminder, my last less than pristine player. You would not believe the deep discount binding popping off all over the place and those streaks caused by an off gassing pickguard brings with it. The only guitar I own with a name - "Bloody Mary."

 

That doesn't look like the UK! The tree might, but there's a big ole' American pickup truck (not a lori!) back there, and it's so wide open and unpopulous.

[BluesKing777]

Another grade of instrument - "Fairly Unplayable Player Grade" before it was worked on:

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Player Grade" after lots of work:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[tpbiii]

Another grade of instrument - "Fairly Unplayable Player Grade" before it was worked on:

 

We call those "rescues"

[BluesKing777]

Yes, my labrador was also a 'Rescue'......

 

Guitar and dog both needed a lot of work, dog was a real wild dog that dragged both my Better Half and I along the ground on our faces at different times when first arrived, but both guitar and dog have also needed a lot of working 'on' continuously and both are sensational now!

 

Not everyone's ideal Gibson L-0 or Golden Labrador, but......

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

 

Edit: riding my pushbike, saw a woman getting dragged/run along by not one mad labrador on a leash but...TWO!

[kidblast]

RCT possibly the most ridiculous comment I've ever seen on the Gibson forum. Smh

 

 

LOL! he works at it, and yes he has a knack for it.. this is why we love him.

 

tbh with you guys, I think this is all so much cacas, purely a sales tactic.

 

vintage shcmintage.. I fondly remember my 73 Strat, (3 bolt neck,, oy vhey) it was a POS when I got it, it was a POS when I traded it, and if I picked it up today, some 40+ years later, pretty sure it would still be a POS.

 

I don't buy into any of this.

 

it's your money, spend it how ever you wish.

[bayoubengal1954]

 

vintage shcmintage.. I fondly remember my 73 Strat, (3 bolt neck,, oy vhey) it was a POS when I got it, it was a POS when I traded it, and if I picked it up today, some 40+ years later, pretty sure it would still be a POS.

 

I don't buy into any of this.

 

 

I don't get this. You seem to be arguing against a position I've never heard advanced (at least I haven't seen it in this thread). No one here has said that a POS guitar will magically turn into a great guitar 40 years later. I agree with you that this position makes no sense. However, I do believe that a good acoustic guitar (don't know electrics at all so I won't opine about them) has a great chance of being an even better guitar after 40+ years, of course depending on the factors of the guitar's history of being cared for by the different owners along the way. Every guitar would be judged on a case by case basis.

 

I do believe the tone woods will improve with age.

 

If you don't believe this, that's cool. You are correct in that everyone gets to decide how to spend their own money. Ain't it great?

[rct]

I don't get this. You seem to be arguing against a position I've never heard advanced (at least I haven't seen it in this thread). No one here has said that a POS guitar will magically turn into a great guitar 40 years later. I agree with you that this position makes no sense. However, I do believe that a good acoustic guitar (don't know electrics at all so I won't opine about them) has a great chance of being an even better guitar after 40+ years, of course depending on the factors of the guitar's history of being cared for by the different owners along the way. Every guitar would be judged on a case by case basis.

 

I think where most electric players come from, and I'm not speaking for Kid but I think I understand, is that assumption that "vintage" = "great". It doesn't, not ever. People want a "birth year" guitar and I ask them what they will do if that vintage guitar blows chunks? They get mad. Most of us that played 50's and 60's and 70's guitars before they were "vintage" don't really have fond memories of them, I know I don't. PAFs in Les Pauls, yes, but the guitars themselves? meh. Fenders even worse most of them.

 

Acoustics I didn't dabble too much in. Most of the Martins from my youth were just stiff as could be, which the acoustic mavens call overbuilt, and I get that.

 

I find the assumption that "tone wood" ages well also ridiculous. There are crappy guitars, electric and acoustic, from back then, same wood, same construction, they didn't get any better. A great guitar is wherever you find it. I'm pretty sure that all the truly spectacular vintage guitars are owned and coveted and don't come on the market. It's the rest of the dreck that has been sold 11 times in 60 years.

 

rct

[kidblast]

it is pretty much exactly what rct has said. For some reason, people get in in their heads that if it's 40/50 years old, it's gotta be some sort of grail to seek out, and purchase. Not only is that so incredibly not true in many cases, it will cost many thousands of dollars to find out what a farce this whole "vintage" stigma is.

 

 

The other issue with acoustics, is a great deal of how they weather the years, cared for, stored, maintained... I have a 40 year old Alvarez Yari. (back when a Yari guitar was not another name for a mass produced D28 import/knock off)

 

It's a stellar instrument, but I've also maintained it. When it needed work done, it was done, and done right. and when it is not played, is kept in a proper case. etc.. Do you know what this is worth in the open market? It's debatable, but probably not more than 500/600 bucks. It's NOT worth it to me to sell it, the nostalgia content of a guitar I've had for this long is worth more than 500 bucks to me.

 

Like I said, if guys like this stuff,, well then they should go ahead, and buy what ever they want. it's their money, just please don't tell me it's anything more than what it is.

[bayoubengal1954]

A great guitar is wherever you find it. I'm pretty sure that all the truly spectacular vintage guitars are owned and coveted and don't come on the market. It's the rest of the dreck that has been sold 11 times in 60 years.

 

rct

 

Agreed. Old, new, a good guitar is a good guitar. The aging process doesn't make a bad guitar good. I don't know who says that. If they do, I'm on your side of this argument. I believe I would have liked my 68 year old guitar when it was brand new. I don't know, because I was -6 years old at the time.

Does it sound better than it did in 1948? I don't know that either. I know I like it now. Like you say, a good guitar is where you find it.

[bayoubengal1954]

it is pretty much exactly what rct has said. For some reason, people get in in their heads that if it's 40/50 years old, it's gotta be some sort of grail to seek out, and purchase.

 

If someone believes that they have to seek out an old guitar because it will automatically be great, then I agree with you that they are engaged in delusional thinking. I did want to own one Vintage (old and used to you ) guitar for both historical and pleasing to the ear reasons, but I knew I would have to play quite a few to see what I liked. That was just what I wanted to do. I'm a bit of a nerd. However, I wasn't going to buy one just because it was old. I played one mid 50's J-45 that sounded unbelievably bad. Time was not a friend to the that one!

 

The one I ended up purchasing and fixing up is quite a mongrel and definitely not a collector's guitar, so I have no delusions as to its economic value. But it sounds great to me, I gig with it all the time and I ended up spending around the same amount as I would have on a new J-45 Vintage. This process is not for everyone and I will probably just stop at this one guitar. Most everything else I have is made after 2006 (except that "overbuilt" 1974 D-28 that was gift from my parents on my 20th birthday...there is where emotion plays in).

 

Anyway I don't think our beliefs are that far apart. Even if they were, it's no problem. Play on!

[rct]

I use an old soundhole pickup to bring out that uber schweet 80's vibe from my acoustics. The painters tape holding the cable in place on my stupid expensive M-36 lets the audience know I have true performance cred as I croak my way through Wish You Were Here. They certainly wish they were not.

 

rct

[bayoubengal1954]

I use an old soundhole pickup to bring out that uber schweet 80's vibe from my acoustics. The painters tape holding the cable in place on my stupid expensive M-36 lets the audience know I have true performance cred as I croak my way through Wish You Were Here. They certainly wish they were not.

 

rct

 

You're in Show Biz, Son!

[tpbiii]

I use an old soundhole pickup to bring out that uber schweet 80's vibe from my acoustics. The painters tape holding the cable in place on my stupid expensive M-36 lets the audience know I have true performance cred as I croak my way through Wish You Were Here. They certainly wish they were not.

 

Well that explains a lot.

 

I should not get involved in this, but I guess i will.

 

Here is some things I have said in the past in various places.

 

As many of you know, my wife and I collect vintage guitars, and tone and functionality are always our focus. For the most part, we have only bought even vintage guitars that we thought were exceptional -- we have passed on all original prewar bones that we thought were not up to snuff. This is not a new set of opinions -- we have been doing this with some enthusiasm for more than four decades.

 

Let me talk about what I mean by functionality. Many years ago, I discovered that old guitars in general, and old herringbones in particular, were more audible in loud acoustic environments than newer instruments. At the beginning, I had no idea if this was really an affect associated with old guitars, or if new guitars could do it too, and I had just not gotten to play any. Well, over the years I have gotten to play many, many new guitars in jam sessions. The reason I get to play so many of them is because people know I have the old guitars, and they want to get me to give them an opinion of what they have. I also let people play my guitars, which I guess makes me very approachable. What emerged after about 15-20 years of doing this (that would be 10-15 years ago) was that, for the most part, only the old guitars had this property of "audibility," and that property could be associated with the tonal property most often referred to a "clarity." This lack of clarity seems most associated with a guitar being described as "green," and the improvement of clarity seems to be what is being described when it is said that a guitar is "coming out."

 

 

I had basically formed these opinions by the mid-to-late 1990s -- really in the early stages the "small builder's renaissance" that has been in evidence over the past couple of decades. I have continued to play new guitars throughout all this period, always looking for exceptions and never finding any. Of course, there is no way I have played all the makers mentioned here. But my best guess would be that new guitars are always green, and good guitars will always improve and eventually become great -- but you have to wait. And by great I mean what I call functional -- being audible in a loud acoustic session with other instruments.

 

So here is the bottom line I guess.

 

Old instruments, in my experience, can exhibit a clarity of tone that I have never heard in a new instrument. This is not a subtle effect. On all other dimensions (loudness, balance, etc.), they can be equaled or beaten by modern instruments. This lack of clarity in new instruments is called sounding "green," and it attenuates with playing. If you like the sound of a green instrument, don't waste your money on vintage.

 

We started collecting old guitars in the 1970s -- we are pretty old. We bought for sound and condition, but we treated the whole collection as a portfolio. We studied the market and only bought if the $$ was right.

 

So, now retired, we have quite a few iconic instruments. The value of the collection is now 7 figures and the amount invested is low 6 figures -- by far our best investment. We play mostly in acoustic groups (a lot of BG, but other stuff too) and our instruments functionally excel because of the clarity factor.

 

so

 

1. They not only paid for themselves, they made us a lot of money.

2. We live in guitar heaven where we get to play these iconic instruments everyday.

3. Owning old guitars makes us cool -- pitiful I know, but we will take all the help we can get .

 

So they increased (sometimes dramatically) in value, their unique sound cannot be matched by younger guitars, and they make is into cool people.

 

So why would anyone buy a new guitar? I don't get it.

 

 

 

BTW, a historical fact is that the dawn of the vintage guitar market was based on prewar D-28s and bluegrass. That is a very strong acoustic genre, and Gibson guitars were pretty much dismissed. There was no bias against Gibson -- the flathead Mastertones and (Lloyd Loar) F5s rule the roost. It was mostly a tone/power question -- J-45s were just not strong enough and the 30s Js were/are too rare. Here is an article i wrote in a blog about why that need not have been.

 

Collector vintage 1962

 

 

Player vintage 1965

 

 

Rescue Vintage 1959

 

 

Let's pick,

 

-Tom

[QuestionMark]

Y'all do realize that if the next generation does not support the vintage guitar collectible market (which sounds predominant on this forum, unless it's just a European thing differing from a US thing on this forum) and that if in the future aged guitars just are viewed as used, then all of our current Gibsons will start depreciating in price over the years. Because without a collectible vintage marketplace where certain used (vintage) things are in demand, all of our present guitars will begin tanking in value (not playability) because used things without a collectible marketplace always lose their value. And, new guitar makers will stop issuing vintage derived reissues if vintage guitars are not a part of their competition in the marketplace. This is what happened in the 70s when things like the Gibson Mark guitars were marketed because 30s, 40's, 50's, 60's instruments were just considered used with no vintage value...so Gibson started creating only new things like Mark guitars or J45s that had no historic tie ins, though those also had no demand.

 

I am not too sure many of you know what you're wishing for and may have to live with one day. A great guitar with no value because there is no vintage marketplace. No wonder many of you seem to have no second thoughts about purchasing a new Gibson and immediately swapping out/modifying its original equipment at times. It won't be worth anything anyhow if there is no vintage marketplace.

 

Call me Jazzman Einstein if you'd like, but, I think many of you do not understand the impact on the guitar marketplace and the future of guitars if what you are saying gains traction. Simply put, used things depreciate in value without a vintage marketplace appreciating prices of specific used things. And, without a vintage marketplace to compete with a new marketplace, reissues are not pursued by new manufacturers due to no demand for them.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

[jedzep]

Thanks to Tom for sizing up my feelings about the old quality guitars. As I said, I just bought my first new guitar in 50 yrs of playing, and it's just fine, but is still missing a tone component that my '31 mahog small body Gibson has. I attribute that to the aging of the superior old growth stuff the top is made of. Of course there's no scientific test for what yer' ears like, and I was winding up to get involved in this discussion, being a vintage Gibson and Martin trader and player, but it's getting tiring hearing from the 'nonbelievers' here who are giving the higher quality vintage boxes disrespect, despite the long standing love for the unique sound collectors and players of these old boxes know well.

[tpbiii]

Y'all do realize that if the next generation does not support the vintage guitar collectible market (which sounds predominant on this forum, unless it's just a European thing differing from a US thing on this forum) and that if in the future aged guitars just are viewed as used, then all of our current Gibsons will start depreciating in price over the years. Because without a collectible vintage marketplace where certain used (vintage) things are in demand, all of our present guitars will begin tanking in value (not playability) because used things without a collectible marketplace always lose their value. And, new guitar makers will stop issuing vintage derived reissues if vintage guitars are not a part of their competition in the marketplace. This is what happened in the 70s when things like the Gibson Mark guitars were marketed because 30s, 40's, 50's, 60's instruments were just considered used with no vintage value...so Gibson started creating only new things like Mark guitars or J45s that had no historic tie ins, though those also had no demand.

 

I am not too sure many of you know what you're wishing for and may have to live with one day. A great guitar with no value because there is no vintage marketplace. No wonder many of you seem to have no second thoughts about purchasing a new Gibson and immediately swapping out/modifying its original equipment at times. It won't be worth anything anyhow if there is no vintage marketplace.

 

Call me Jazzman Einstein if you'd like, but, I think many of you do not understand the impact on the guitar marketplace and the future of guitars if what you are saying gains traction. Simply put, used things depreciate in value without a vintage marketplace appreciating prices of specific used things. And, without a vintage marketplace to compete with a new marketplace, reissues are not pursued by new manufacturers due to no demand for them.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff

 

The whole vintage guitar market is pretty weird, and it is a lot easier to predict the past than the future. The whole vintage phenomenon really took off in the 70s and 80s when the quality of acoustic guitars worldwide tanked. When combined with the earlier rush to acquire vintage 30s Martins that sort of started in the late 40s -- after they were no longer being built -- led to custom player/luthier/builder community outside the mainstream. These guys knew the old techniques and developed maintenance techniques while the big guys -- Gibson and Martin -- pretty much lost the formula. At both companies, it was the ALT GUITAR people that were bought in to point the companies back to their popular past.

 

At Gibson, acoustic guitars are just a small piece of the company and not a great focus. At Martin, the company has grown consistently by rebuilding past models (Authentics) and working the other end to compete with the likes of Taylor.

 

If you look at it simply from a market perspective, the thing to remember is that there are not all that many vintage guitars out there -- very few high grade ones -- and there will never be any more. With such rare iconic items, there is a tendency for their collector properties (rarity, historical function, etc.) to become more dominant than their "instrument" properties in driving the market. The collector market in general involves more $, so their is a natural evolution to higher selling prices, and (paradoxically) actually less use of the instruments to do music as a standard tool.

 

In recent talks with some dealers, it seems that the market peaked about 2007 and has been stable or declining slightly since. A the high end -- really rare, exe+, all original instruments have sort of "taken off" with really fast rising prices -- BUT there are far too few left drive the broad market. Player grade instruments are pretty much in decline with (slightly) dropping prices while guitars with serious issues (in need of rescue or unsavable) have dropped dramatically.

 

As to the market for new high-end acoustics --- don't really know, but it seems to me there is an over supply. I guess we will see.

 

Best,

 

-Tom

[jedzep]

I enjoy playing and hearing my friend's 5 yr old Santa Cruz. As well, another friend who was always a straight vintage guy bought Molly Mason's 5 yr old D28, which is also an great player. It's inspiring to handle fine instruments. I get the same joy coming home to play my old guitars. I like 'em all. One of each, please.

 

There are many of us who have been around long enough to have an appreciation for old world hand crafted objects built from better quality raw materials than are available today. Artisan quality can now be mechanically reproduced accurately for building acoustic guitars, but maybe some of us are just a little more tied in to the emotion of embracing that connection. I find it fulfilling.