The Rosewood Conundrum

[JayinLA]

CITES-The center for missing and expoited trees,has rubberstamped regulations that now affect all 300 species of Rosewood, when it's fairly well known that the Brazilian Rosewood tree was the "edangered" species. The one folks are worried about. The ripple this has caused through the guitar industry is crazy. Selling a Rosewood made guitar overseas is now virtually impossible. You have to apply for lading paperwork from folks who really don't want the hassle of going through these applications, to sell even an used instrument, made decades ago, before CITES was even around. (at least heard of)

 

Now, I am all for saving our endangered species, and I believe we should make conscious effort to do so. But this, much like most environmental regulation seems to be a complete boondoggle.

 

How much wood is a guitar made from?

 

Are countries like China going to pay any mind to these regulations?

 

Why are 300 species of Flora included in the regulation when it's only one that's endagngered?

 

Is Ebony wood any worse or better for guitars?

 

What do we do once ebony wood is 'protected'?

 

What percentage of the Brazilian Rosewood is being used by guitar manufacturers vs the total of the annual supply?

 

Who benefits?

[Guest Farnsbarns]

There is no annual supply. There is no supply, it's gone. Only old stock remains.

 

It does seem a bit heavy handed to regulate the species in plentiful supply.

[Twang Gang]

If what Farns says is correct (and I have no reason to doubt him) then the law makes no sense at all. If all the Brazilian rosewood has already been harvested - there is nothing to protect. The laws are just making it difficult to move it across borders - but again what difference does it make where it is consumed (made into something) if it is all gone? I suppose we don't need to use up all the other types of rosewood as well, but lumping them all together seems like overkill if most are not endangered yet.

[MrNylon]

This entire Rosewood issue, does appear to be a sham at best.

[pippy]

There is no annual supply. There is no supply, it's gone. Only old stock remains...

It's interesting to consider Braz. Rosewood for a min.

 

Yes; it's been on the CITIES Cat. 1 list of banned trading substances for 25 years now but as a species it's far from extinct. On the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) list it's in the 5th group down on the grading system. The system goes from EX (extinct); EW (extinct in the wild); CR (critically endangered); EN (endangered); VU (vulnerable); NT (near threatened); CD (conservation dependent); LC (least concern).

Brazillian Rosewood is listed as being VU (vulnerable).

 

Carry On!

 

Pip.

[pippy]

This entire Rosewood issue, does appear to be a sham at best.

The problem is that it's difficult to prove exactly what species of Rosewood has been used in the fabrication of any particular object without a 'paper-trail' detailing timber sources.

 

How would your average Customs Officer be able to differentiate Brazillian Rosewood from Madagascan Rosewood from Indian Rosewood from...etc...etc...etc...

Without a detailed chemical analysis it's impossible to say with 100% certainty what type of rosewood has been used and that's not going to be a practical solution to the problem.

 

'Ban Them All' was the option chosen.

 

Pip.

[JayinLA]

It's interesting to consider Braz. Rosewood for a min.

 

Yes; it's been on the CITIES Cat. 1 list of banned trading substances for 25 years now but as a species it's far from extinct. On the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN) list it's in the 5th group down on the grading system. The system goes from EX (extinct); EW (extinct in the wild); CR (critically endangered); EN (endangered); VU (vulnerable); NT (near threatened); CD (conservation dependent); LC (least concern).

Brazillian Rosewood is listed as being VU (vulnerable).

 

Carry On!

 

Pip.

 

 

Thank you for doing the legwork on this. I figured it would be some bovine scat like that. Maybe we should tell our Murican manufacturers to do what's in niche during the Trump era with Evnironmental regs. Ignore em. Seems to me this is another feel good reg that instead of saving anything, penalizes one of the last American exports.

[pippy]

...Seems to me this is another feel good reg that instead of saving anything, penalizes one of the last American exports...

Oh, I don't have access to enough information to know with any certainty the real situation with Braz. Rosewood, Jay; as in how many forest-acres are actually left. In fact I'm pretty sure the aforementioned IUCN could argue that the only reason Braz. RW isn't aready extinct is precisely because it has been CITIES Cat. 1. listed for the last 25 years...

 

Pip.

[merciful-evans]

Gibson stated ages ago that they cant source Ebony anymore (I take that to mean in useful quantities). So I dont think thats a viable alternative.

[JayinLA]

Gibson stated ages ago that they cant source Ebony anymore (I take that to mean in useful quantities). So I dont think thats a viable alternative.

 

 

I have one ebony fingerboard. I like it. I imagine if Ebony is good, brazilian rosewood is good. There has got to be some woods that are available that are good for fingerboards. I even like maple on some stuff.

[american cheez]

shippimg a guitar should require no cites paperwork at all, because the manufacturer has already done it. on another forum (guitarscanada.com) i have read posts from people who regularly ship across the canadian/us border. they tell me they never have problems shipping guitars, and they deal with no cites paperwork whatsoever.

when i myself crossed the border with my LP on june 1 of this year, they asked what was in the case. i said, "a guitar". they said ok, never asked to see it, or any paperwork, and i was on my way. afaik, the paperwork does not apply to wood contained in a finished product that you purchased retail. it only applies to unfinished wood sold commercially.

[Jeffytune]

Just another unaccountable bureaucratic agency out to take your money.

[merciful-evans]

I have one ebony fingerboard. I like it. I imagine if Ebony is good, brazilian rosewood is good. There has got to be some woods that are available that are good for fingerboards. I even like maple on some stuff.

 

I much prefer ebony. In 46 years of use there's no trace of any wear on my Fylde.

 

Maple is good but is usually laquered which spoils the feel a bit. I much prefer the torrefied maple on a fingerboard which doesnt need to be sealed due to the heat treatment.

[Murph]

I love my ebony J-45, but I just bought a J-15 and it has a walnut board.

 

'Murican wood, feels great, plentiful supply, looks awesome.

 

I'm good.

[Rabs]

afaik, the paperwork does not apply to wood contained in a finished product that you purchased retail. it only applies to unfinished wood sold commercially.

You are allowed to carry up to 11 lbs of Rosewood for personal use.. So if you have bought one and taking it across a border as personal luggage it should always be ok.. Even though you could always get the odd customs ahole with a power complex so id at least be sure I had the receipt with me or something.

 

IF any money is changing hands cross border you need a cites certificate... OR if you are being paid to use your instrument you will also need one.. So basically yeah, personal use should be fine but any professional use and when money is crossing boarders you need one.

 

I have heard theres some music organisations trying to get some instruments exempt from the cites thing all together.. In most cases the amount of wood is so small it seems silly.

 

And I will post this again about the state of Ebony.. If you haven't seen it you really really should.

[rct]

I have heard theres some music organisations trying to get some instruments exempt from the cites thing all together...

 

In December of this year they re-wrote and clarified those rules because orchestra types were having a hard time getting their cellos and such around. A guitar player should have no trouble getting their guitar anywhere as of the first of next year.

 

rct

[Rabs]

In December of this year they re-wrote and clarified those rules because orchestra types were having a hard time getting their cellos and such around. A guitar player should have no trouble getting their guitar anywhere as of the first of next year.

 

rct

Good job too Hopefully common sense will prevail.. They just hadn't considered instruments at all when they made these rules..

 

I wonder what would they would make of this type of guitar then :)

[cody78]

Gibson stated ages ago that they cant source Ebony anymore (I take that to mean in useful quantities).

 

Yeah, I guess they must still have a fair bit left around though as it's still being used on the high end archtops - Super 400, L5 and Citation and the odd L4CES, though it seems the specs for the L4 go between ebony and rosewood regularly.

[merciful-evans]

You are allowed to carry up to 11 lbs of Rosewood for personal use.. So if you have bought one and taking it across a border as personal luggage it should always be ok.. Even though you could always get the odd customs ahole with a power complex so id at least be sure I had the receipt with me or something.

 

IF any money is changing hands cross border you need a cites certificate... OR if you are being paid to use your instrument you will also need one.. So basically yeah, personal use should be fine but any professional use and when money is crossing boarders you need one.

 

I have heard theres some music organisations trying to get some instruments exempt from the cites thing all together.. In most cases the amount of wood is so small it seems silly.

 

And I will post this again about the state of Ebony.. If you haven't seen it you really really should.

 

You're right. I needed to see that. Thanks for making the point Rabs. It does sound like Taylor are managing what remains responsibly. I had reasoned that ebony stocks were low, but had no idea it had become quite so scarce.

 

At which point I will restate again that I would rather go over to solid body guitars that were made from alternative materials (for practical reasons as well as ecological ones). Acoustic stringed instruments need wood. IMO solid bodies dont.

[badbluesplayer]

It seems like they could have anticipated the issues with individual instruments and should have had a policy in place allowing free transport of individual guitars right when they started enforcing the rule. But what do I know? I'm in my underwear.

[badbluesplayer]

You are allowed to carry up to 11 lbs of Rosewood for personal use..

 

I haven't traveled dirty since the seventies...

[Rabs]

You're right. I needed to see that. Thanks for making the point Rabs. It does sound like Taylor are managing what remains responsibly. I had reasoned that ebony stocks were low, but had no idea it had become quite so scarce.

 

At which point I will restate again that I would rather go over to solid body guitars that were made from alternative materials (for practical reasons as well as ecological ones). Acoustic stringed instruments need wood. IMO solid bodies dont.

Yeah its a pretty mad situation...

 

What I find stupid is that Ebony while controlled needs no paper work at all... Theres loads of Rosewood in India and from what I know they do it the right way.. Only harvesting so much and planting more. YET we now need a licence for it?? Very odd.

 

But there ARE many many alternative woods to use. The issue is getting really conservative guitars players to accept this and the sad truth is sooner or later they will have no choice.

 

I have see it myself.. When I started buying wood about 5 years ago a blank ebony board was jet black and £18... Now a slightly streaky ebony board is about £28 for a blank.. Now I know that's not crazy but each year it goes up, each year its less jet black.. And that's the way it will keep going.

[pippy]

...Ebony while controlled needs no paper work at all...There's loads of Rosewood in India and from what I know they do it the right way.. Only harvesting so much and planting more. YET we now need a licence for it?...

I'm probably much less well-informed than yourself, Rabs, but perhaps it's because Ebony is so well-controlled there's not a general worry about either sourcing nor sustainability whereas perhaps Rosewood is so badly documented it had proved to be impossible to make cast-iron guarantees about sources, species and sustainability?

Just a thought.

 

Also from what I remember one of the big hurdles as far as the recent Lacey Act amendment is concerned was that the wood to be imported had to have been worked at place of origin - which, from Gibson's point of view, made things impossible; how could a fully-finished fingerboard be fashioned in India if it is to be used on a guitar crafted in the USA?

 

...there ARE many many alternative woods to use. The issue is getting really conservative guitars players to accept this.......about 5 years ago a blank ebony board was jet black and £18... Now a slightly streaky ebony board is about £28 for a blank....

I agree. We saw it here when Granadillo was introduced. We saw it when torrefied Maple was introduced. I like a nice slab of Rosewood and Ebony as much as anyone but if we have to learn to accept other species then so be it. The only thing I didn't like about the 'new' alternatives was the colour of some of the 'boards we saw at the start but good ol' Uncle Donny showed us that a little bit of black Leather Dye works wonders...

 

Just my absent-minded musings.

 

Pip.

[Rabs]

I'm probably much less well-informed than yourself, Rabs, but perhaps it's because Ebony is so well-controlled there's not a general worry about either sourcing nor sustainability whereas perhaps Rosewood is so badly documented it had proved to be impossible to make cast-iron guarantees about sources, species and sustainability?

Just a thought.

 

Also from what I remember one of the big hurdles as far as the recent Lacey Act amendment is concerned was that the wood to be imported had to have been worked at place of origin - which, from Gibson's point of view, made things impossible; how could a fully-finished fingerboard be fashioned in India if it is to be used on a guitar crafted in the USA?

 

Just my absent-minded musings.

 

Pip.

Well I have read up about this but that was early in the year and you probably have a better memory than me :)

 

Yeah I have had the same thoughts about Ebony as in its only available from one place (Cameroon). The thing is that the CITES people should have spoken to the music industry first because the big companies at least have been doing it the right way for years now so have been self regulating. So instruments should have been made exempt (certainly American made ones)..This whole thing from what I remember was to mainly target the Asian furniture market which is (or was) huge, they should have aimed it at that... That whole thing about where the boards were worked on was silly too.. From what I remember it wasn't even India that was complaining.. It was someone in the American Government worried that the local workers in India were somehow being conned cos they cut the wood in America or something.. It was all just political nonsense. Im not sure about what stage they finish working on them before they get shipped. I cant imagine they do the fret slots or radiusing in India? Maybe it was just cutting the blanks to size from large boards??

[JayinLA]

I read a report that Ebony is abundant, but much much more rare in the "Black". It's believed that the wood is of excellent instrument grade, but is not the black ebony wood that is so prevelent on guitar fingerboards. I, personally don't really care. When I was a kid, I really was drawn to guitars based on the look of em, now I prefer function over fashion.

 

So, I suppose my point is Gibson may be able to source some of this 'less black' ebony wood.