Rabs Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 http://mmrmagazine.com/mmr-global/6734-selectron-falls-foul-of-cites.html Magistrates have ordered the disposal of more than 500 Cordoba guitars bound for distributor Selectron, made with wood controlled by CITES international trade restrictions. Border force agents seized the shipment as it entered the Port of Felixstowe on 11th October last year and HMRC has now applied for the instruments to be condemned at South East Suffolk Magistrates’ Court, in Ipswich. The court heard how Selectron had been granted one of two types of legally required permit to import guitars with components made from East Indian Rosewood, which became subject to new trade rules in January 2017. In accordance with the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979, magistrates granted an uncontested application for the condemnation of the 519 Cordoba guitars made with the wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 So do they burn them? Crazy if they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted April 27, 2018 Author Share Posted April 27, 2018 So do they burn them? Crazy if they do. Yup seems that way.. And I do find it a bit odd, destroying wood to try and save it.. It seems that CITES only meets every two years and apparently it is on the agenda for the next meeting to try and get musical instruments exempt from the list.. Cos they admit that no one had really thought about instruments when making the new laws and they also said something along the lines of they had no idea about the second hand instrument market either. So lets hope common sense prevails at the next meeting in 2019.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted April 27, 2018 Share Posted April 27, 2018 ... no one had really thought about instruments when making the new laws and they also said something along the lines of they had no idea about the second hand instrument market either. So lets hope common sense prevails at the next meeting in 2019.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 I have also heard rumblings that Ebony may be next on the list too... So.. Again lets hope they see the sense of the fact that guitars (generally) only have a tiny amount of these controlled woods on them... Its annoying that they decided to control Indian Rosewood cos they have been planting and harvesting it in a sustainable way for a while now... So its already controlled. I know its cos no one can tell the difference in real life but it just seems overboard to me. Oh well we will just have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregsguitars Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 CITES SUKS.......period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 CITES SUKS.......period. Unfortunately, gregsguitars CITIES is essential......period. They have made quite a few absolute howlers in the writing of various treaties/classifications but without any control on various species the resultant destruction would be catastrophic and irreversible. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted April 28, 2018 Share Posted April 28, 2018 I just checked out how much it would cost to build a rosewood amp cabinet - Bolivian seems to be available - It would be a few hundred dollars worth of boards to make a shell and maybe fifty bucks for the back. But it would only weigh like 6 or 8 pounds, so I guess it would be exempt. Or maybe the rosewood I buy here in the States might be already certified/paidified and therefore wouldn't be a problem, as long as I have paperwork from the wood supplier? Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted April 28, 2018 Author Share Posted April 28, 2018 I just checked out how much it would cost to build a rosewood amp cabinet - Bolivian seems to be available - It would be a few hundred dollars worth of boards to make a shell and maybe fifty bucks for the back. But it would only weigh like 6 or 8 pounds, so I guess it would be exempt. Or maybe the rosewood I buy here in the States might be already certified/paidified and therefore wouldn't be a problem, as long as I have paperwork from the wood supplier? Hmmm... You only have to worry if you plan to sell it outside the US... Wood that's already in the country you don't really need paperwork for that's for the suppliers to worry about... Just don't ever try and cross an international border with it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Ridiculous to destroy it. Not even Jimi burned 500 guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-28 Posted April 29, 2018 Share Posted April 29, 2018 Ridiculous to destroy it. Not even Jimi burned 500 guitars. Pete smashed an uncountable number of guitars. Let him go and give em all a good smash to get things warmed up before they are set ablaze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted April 29, 2018 Author Share Posted April 29, 2018 Unfortunately, gregsguitars CITIES is essential......period. They have made quite a few absolute howlers in the writing of various treaties/classifications but without any control on various species the resultant destruction would be catastrophic and irreversible. Pip. Yeah I do have to agree.. As annoying as it all is for some of us there are people out there who would gladly destroy whole forests just for profit without any regard for the impact on the environment.. Let alone the fact that if we want to keep using wood to make guitars, without these laws the wood would all be gone in a matter of years. It needs to be done sustainably and responsibly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I get the controls and protections etc.. so.. ok.. great,, fine the company, then donate the guitars to schools and colleges and religious organizations who don't have access to the money to buy new instruments. The damage has been done,, burning them wont replant the trees.. But they instead plan to destroy them? wtf is wrong with these ppl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchik Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Unfortunately, gregsguitars CITIES is essential......period. Except they only police participating nations. They won't attack nations such as China, Taiwan, etc. who eat exotic resources like popcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted April 30, 2018 Author Share Posted April 30, 2018 Except they only police participating nations. They won't attack nations such as China, Taiwan, etc. who eat exotic resources like popcorn. While its true that these laws came in to place because of the huge poaching issue they have in some Asian countries actually check out the list of who has signed up to CITES (which yes China is on there).. 183 in total. That's a pretty big dent if you as me. https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/chronolo.php Even if they weren't part of the agreement it would still be worth doing as it stops the international trade of illegal Rosewood.. And it is an issue. Maybe not from a guitar players view but they export huge bits of furniture which was fuelling the poaching of the wood as it demands a very high price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregsguitars Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Unfortunately, gregsguitars CITIES is essential......period. They have made quite a few absolute howlers in the writing of various treaties/classifications but without any control on various species the resultant destruction would be catastrophic and irreversible. Pip. That in itself is not true, CITES sucks on any item produced before today, even the labs the US Government uses can not properly id the different species of BRW that you are expected to ID....Gruhn and myself have written articles on CITES and Lacey act bullmularky over the years...If control is expected then make manufacturers supply chain of evidence from forests to final produced goods and leave out all the unaccountable pre CITES supplies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 That in itself is not true... What EXACTLY is not true in my post? Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 Except they only police participating nations. They won't attack nations such as China, Taiwan, etc. who eat exotic resources like popcorn. Exactly. I read somewhere China consumes as much rosewood as the rest of the world combined. The US destroyed several tons of Ivory a couple of years ago which had been seized by Customs. I understand the need to dry up the demand - but by allowing countries like China to ignore the issue - is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregsguitars Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 " .without any control on various species the resultant destruction would be catastrophic and irreversible."...It is only been deemed catastrophic due to illegal harvesting and clear cutting ( thank you flooring and furniture companies ) , which various governments should target by all means...irreversible ? Not if replanting and wood selection is the true goal which the guitar industry has been very eco friendly and understands sustainable wood supplies, they have been practicing it for years, Now invasive species , wood destroying insects, pirate logging now that would be something to go after, but no, governments place a bandaid on a problem they do not understand and place restrictive constraints on small business like myself requiring us to jump through hoops to purchase or sell an item that was made decades ago....no thanks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 Exactly. I read somewhere China consumes as much rosewood as the rest of the world combined. The US destroyed several tons of Ivory a couple of years ago which had been seized by Customs. I understand the need to dry up the demand - but by allowing countries like China to ignore the issue - is ridiculous. But China ARE signed up to CITES?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 This is all serious business and a serious problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 But China ARE signed up to CITES?... I believe that with many of these international environmental agreements, some countries sign up to comply with the full list of measure, while some claim it will take time and only sign up for a fraction with the promise they will eventually get to the point the other countries start out at. I do not know what China does to enforce CITES. I can only guess, with the thousands of mahogany and rosewood guitars they produce - they must have some special approach to enforcement. Most Cordoba guitars are made in China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 ...It is only been deemed catastrophic due to illegal harvesting and clear cutting...which various governments should target by all means...irreversible ? Not if replanting and wood selection is the true goal... So we are largely in agreement. When I mentioned "catastrophic and irreversible" I was not talking solely about wood species but Flora and Fauna in general. As recently as 19th March this year, for example, the last male Northern White Rhino died which, effectively, means the species is now extinct. The protection of certain animal species is a vitally important part of the whole CITES ethos. I, too, deal with CITES listed goods (in my case antiques) on a daily basis and my clients have to jump through those very same hoops that you mention. Today, ironically, I will be photographing a 90cm (35") long rhino horn knobkerrie and various artefacts crafted from ivory so have quite a bit of understanding of the situation regarding the trading of items made using such listed materials. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 Pfft! For every environmental regulation, there's a thousand scofflaws. Look at Hank. Big scofflaw. People loved him for it. Now where is he? Can't be trusted by his board. Actions have consequences. The worst mistake he ever made in his life was the ebony thing. Didn't think the rules applied to him. Couldn't stand to just be a rich guy, had to get down in the gutter and start seeing what it would feel like to be a crook. Couldn't keep his nose clean like the rest of us poor slobs. Pesky rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 I certainly understand the need for some such system as CITES and also other rules about such things as Ivory. However, I do get hot under the collar about "old stuff" (wood and ivory that is already dead and perhaps died long ago) getting destroyed. I understand about fakery and crooks pretending a piece of ivory or timber is 50 years old when it was culled last year and this issue must be addressed. But I freak out when people talk about destroying guitars that are already made (send them to schools for God's sake!) or mincing up an ivory statue made in 1850. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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