Kurt Cobain

[Rocky4]

 

That's Murph's way. He doesn't know any better. You get used to it.

 

 

It's real easy to do online. Face to face it gets a little more interesting.

[njschneider2]

It's real easy to do online. Face to face it gets a little more interesting.

 

 

You can't get worked up over what people say on a forum. And please, don't be one of those people who says "I'd like to see you say that to my face". Because people like that are super big ******bags - perhaps the kind you might find here: http://www.hotchickswith******bags.com/

 

Anyway, relax.

[KSG_Standard]

 

I agree 100 %. There are a lot of self-righteous individuals in this forum who are bordering on being narcissists.

 

 

That's Murph's way. He doesn't know any better. You get used to it.

 

Aren't you calling people names too moonie? Do you know any better? We get used to it.

[Bluemoon]

 

Aren't you calling people names too moonie? Do you know any better? We get used to it.

 

I don't think I mentioned a specific person.

[KSG_Standard]

 

I don't think I mentioned a specific person.

 

I got it! Just don't mention any names and whatever you say is cool...Thanks!

[Homz]

You can call me names KSG. I like it. It means you care. I'm kinda sweet on you too.

 

Although I think your already spoken for here on the forum.

[Bluemoon]

I actually wasn't criticizing Murph. He calls people an idiot a lot. It is just his way. As I said, you get used to it. I was trying to let Rocky know that he should take it personally.

[Gitfidl]

I kinda wish I hadn't opened this thread at all. Just in the first page' date=' it became clear that a LOT of people have no idea about the realities of mental illness.

 

I think this is a failing of our health care system. We've stigmatized the mentally ill to the point that they either never seek help or they don't get enough[/quote']

 

Well, for one, this forum probably is NOT a place NOR an audience that could discuss mental health any other way than "pop psychology" (like you see in People Magazine) AND you are no expert even if you have had experience with depression.

 

AND it seems like a LOT of topics are introduced on this forum in order to get an incendiary response. (More heat than light ) So now that you accomplished that "methinks thou doth protest too much."

 

It is not a failed health care system merely because it is not socialist. Socialist health care systems ARE failing (in Cuba, Canada, Europe, Asia). So they come here and buy health insurance to get pre-natal and other specialized care.

 

Regardless of the health care system mental illness is not as treatable as MOST physical ailments. There are many physical ailments too for which there is NO CURE -- and many are self induced (cigarettes come to mind). There are many mental illnesses for which there is LITTLE clinical understanding and even less treatment for it.

 

Literally billions of dollars have been spent on Autism, manic-depressive or bi-polar, schizophrenia, paranoia -- or simple PMS -- and there is very little known about MOST of those illnesses. There has been very little progress. Alcoholism has a less than 1% cure rate. Rarely is it permanent.

 

Would you deny that there is something wrong with 50,000 agonizing and painful deaths per year (2.5 million Americans -- more than twice the deaths in all ALL of the wars ever fought by the US) in order to be politically correct about alcoholics? Disease or not, do you think we (the rest of us) have a right to prohibit DIU? Is it the fault of a "failing health care system?" Is it fair to allow an alcoholic to kill a dozen people or do we have a right to insist on behavioral minimums?

 

Mental illness can be managed even when it cannot be treated. People DO die from it -- just as they die from cancer and heart disease (and DUI). There is no guarantee that we will live happily from birth to 80 or that someone ought to be held at fault if we don't. Life is full of risks. If you are lucky you might live a charmed life. If you are normal then there are going to be some hard times. It's nobody's fault if hard times depress you NOR are you the Lone Ranger.

 

You suck it up and move on out. Tomorrow is another day.

[Homz]

 

Well' date=' for one, this forum probably is NOT a place NOR an audience that could discuss mental health any other way than "pop psychology" (like you see in People Magazine) AND you are [i']no expert[/i] even if you have had experience with depression.

How does one discuss Kurt without talking about mental illness?

 

AND it seems like a LOT of topics are introduced on this forum in order to get an incendiary response. (More heat than light ) So now that you accomplished that "methinks thou doth protest too much."

If you didn't want to read the thread and comment on it then you probably should have not done so.

 

It is not a failed health care system merely because it is not socialist. Socialist health care systems ARE failing (in Cuba, Canada, Europe, Asia). So they come here and buy health insurance to get pre-natal and other specialized care.

Socialism. :-

 

Regardless of the health care system mental illness is not as treatable as MOST physical ailments. There are many physical ailments too for which there is NO CURE -- and many are self induced (cigarettes come to mind). There are many mental illnesses for which there is LITTLE clinical understanding and even less treatment for it.

 

Literally billions of dollars have been spent on Autism, manic-depressive or bi-polar, schizophrenia, paranoia -- or simple PMS -- and there is very little known about MOST of those illnesses. There has been very little progress. Alcoholism has a less than 1% cure rate. Rarely is it permanent.

 

Would you deny that there is something wrong with 50,000 agonizing and painful deaths per year (2.5 million Americans -- more than twice the deaths in all ALL of the wars ever fought by the US) in order to be politically correct about alcoholics? Disease or not, do you think we (the rest of us) have a right to prohibit DIU? Is it the fault of a "failing health care system?" Is it fair to allow an alcoholic to kill a dozen people or do we have a right to insist on behavioral minimums?

 

Mental illness can be managed even when it cannot be treated. People DO die from it -- just as they die from cancer and heart disease (and DUI). There is no guarantee that we will live happily from birth to 80 or that someone ought to be held at fault if we don't. Life is full of risks. If you are lucky you might live a charmed life. If you are normal then there are going to be some hard times. It's nobody's fault if hard times depress you NOR are you the Lone Ranger.

Mental Illness is not a bad day. It is a clinical condition and sometimes a chronic one.

 

You suck it up and move on out. Tomorrow is another day.

 

 

I think the simple point is: Kurt had one or more clinical mental disorders and should have had treatment. This was complicated by the fact that mental disease is not taken seriously by enough people, or even by our government.

[wicked1]

 

 

It is not a failed health care system merely because it is not socialist. Socialist health care systems ARE failing (in Cuba' date=' Canada, Europe, Asia). So they come here and buy health insurance to get pre-natal and other specialized care.

 

[/quote']

 

I did not say it was a failed health care system. I said it was a failing *of* our health care system. Doctors do not screen for mental illness, people get overlooked, and they don't get help. And people who tell the mentally ill to suck it up and get over it do no good at all.

[NeoConMan]

There are a lot of self-righteous individuals in this forum who are bordering on being narcissists.

Have you ever read YOUR posts?

My God BM' date=' what a bummer you are.

 

Every time I read your posts, the voice in my head to accompany the text sounds like Eeyore.

 

[img']http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/ADVG/644~Eeyore-Posters.jpg[/img]

 

 

You offer no knowledge, but opinions aplenty - all unflattering.

You seem to be the "speed bump" to keep threads from moving too fast....

 

 

Please, at least add a smiley to your post or SOMETHING!

:-)

 

I know it's impossible for you to comprehend, but humor - even the driest remote irreverence is in many of my posts.

I know, you see NeoConMan in the thread and can only curse under your breath, but I'm not all a downer.

*** hole? Okay, I'll accept that if it makes you feel better.....

 

CHEER UP!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Drunk and dead is NOT the same thing as heroin addiction. Heroin is no accident.

Drink, feel good, have a good time, drink some more, drink alot more, judgement impaired - drink TOO MUCH....

 

I can follow that logic line, hell I've done it myself.

 

 

Heroin? Bad idea from the first second.

Sorry, no comparison.

 

 

 

I've lost several friends to alcohol related deaths since 1980, NONE of them wanted to die.

It was simply a factor - albeit a major one - in a chain of events that killed each one.

[dem00n]

Have you ever read YOUR posts?

My God BM' date=' what a bummer you are.

 

Every time I read your posts, the voice in my head to accompany the text sounds like Eeyore.

 

[img']http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/ADVG/644~Eeyore-Posters.jpg[/img]

 

 

You offer no knowledge, but opinions aplenty - all unflattering.

You seem to be the "speed bump" to keep threads from moving too fast....

 

 

Please, at least add a smiley to your post or SOMETHING!

:-)

 

I know it's impossible for you to comprehend, but humor - even the driest remote irreverence is in many of my posts.

I know, you see NeoConMan in the thread and can only curse under your breath, but I'm not all a downer.

*** hole? Okay, I'll accept that if it makes you feel better.....

 

CHEER UP!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Drunk and dead is NOT the same thing as heroin addiction. Heroin is no accident.

Drink, feel good, have a good time, drink some more, drink alot more, judgement impaired - drink TOO MUCH....

 

I can follow that logic line, hell I've done it myself.

 

 

Heroin? Bad idea from the first second.

Sorry, no comparison.

 

 

 

I've lost several friends to alcohol related deaths since 1980, NONE of them wanted to die.

It was simply a factor - albeit a major one - in a chain of events that killed each one.

 

Neo give him a break hes one of the good members of this forum.

[NeoConMan]

And people who tell the mentally ill to suck it up and get over it do no good at all.

I'll agree with you in principle.

 

In reality' date=' I think of it like this;

 

Buy a deck of cards, open it up, how many Jokers?

 

By putting yet another [b']Victim Card [/b]in the deck, there's one more opening into the Gravy Train of Free Taxpayer-Funded Rides, and the people most in need will decide the hassles and hoops are not worth it.

 

The freeloaders who have all day, every day, to game the system have no pride and they will jump thru hoops like a circus poodle for their "special handout" that they deserve due to their "special condition."

 

Welfare with an angle - just one more angle....

Get a deck of cards from Uncle Sam and there's 45 Jokers and 4 Welfare Queens with an IUO for the missing cards.

 

 

Consider THIS;

Many more jobs are out of reach if you're clinically diagnosed with even the slightest mental condition.

Functioning people simply cope - for better or worse.

Ask Homz about enlisting in the Navy.

 

There's a reality to accompany all the feel-good stuff.

[wicked1]

I'll agree with you in principle.

 

In reality' date=' I think of it like this;

 

Buy a deck of cards, open it up, how many Jokers?

 

By putting yet another [b']Victim Card [/b]in the deck, there's one more opening into the Gravy Train of Free Taxpayer-Funded Rides, and the people most in need will decide the hassles and hoops are not worth it.

 

The freeloaders who have all day, every day, to game the system have no pride and they will jump thru hoops like a circus poodle for their "special handout" that they deserve due to their "special condition."

 

Welfare with an angle - just one more angle....

Get a deck of cards from Uncle Sam and there's 45 Jokers and 4 Welfare Queens with an IUO for the missing cards.

 

 

Consider THIS;

Many more jobs are out of reach if you're clinically diagnosed with even the slightest mental condition.

Functioning people simply cope - for better or worse.

Ask Homz about enlisting in the Navy.

 

There's a reality to accompany all the feel-good stuff.

 

 

Edit: fug it. You're not worth the energy.

[NeoConMan]

What?

I'm hurt!

 

 

 

Okay, let's make it easy for you.

 

Ask Homz if he could have gotten in the Navy with a history of mental health treatment.

That he needs it or not is beyond this discussion.

[Gitfidl]

 

I think the simple point is: Kurt had one or more clinical mental disorders and should have had treatment. This was complicated by the fact that mental disease is no taken seriously by enough people' date=' or even by our government. [/quote']

 

I don't care how they discuss Kurt. The protest was that the one who originated it did not like the discussion that took place. Well, then, don't introduce the topic. But once having introduced it there is not complaint to be made about what responses one drew.

 

And yes a GUITAR oriented forum is probably NOT a great place to generate any valuable insights about mental illness. ... or philosophy or Shakespeare or political science or social engineering. So if you are going to put those topics on a guitar oriented page then do not act surprised if the responses are those of guitar players.

 

It is fallacious (and politically incendiary) to say mental disease is not taken seriously. What makes you or the objecting poster an expert? There are loads of employee psych programs, psych hospitals (private and state) and treatment programs, drug rehab program, detox programs, court ordered rehab programs, 12 step programs, anger management programs and millions of dollars spent on them.

 

There are excellent doctors and nurses and psychiatry workers available to help people with mental illness. So it is blatantly FALSE to say there isn't anything simply because you have some personal bug up your butt. (or the complaining poster). Pick up any phone book and there are endless sections of license people ready to help with every kind of psych need. And most of them are affordable. Any church has a budget for it. Join one.

 

So all of that is just empty air -- incendiary but empty air.

 

Apparently this fellow was famous and had a better income than the average bear so how does his problems become a government problem? How is that my health needs require me to buy health insurance but some "special people" deserve government hand outs and government money. Was he a veteran? What he Section 8? was he on food stamps? Why was he special?

 

How is he MORE important than hundreds (perhaps thousands) of alcoholics who are in court ordered 12 step programs (at their own expense), or other drug abusers in court ordered program (at their own expense), or spouse abusers on anger management programs (some with electronic bracelets and restrictions on where they can go and on hours).

 

Why is one death, his death, more important that 50,000 traffic deaths of innocent people killed in the prime of their life? Why do you decide whose death is important and whose is not? What makes you the judge of who deserves and who does not?

 

May people are ill. At least half of the people over 65 are seriously ill. Some are ill with more than one disease and are coping with serious pain day in and day out. How are they less important than the one you choose to make important. Why should the be forced to pay for their health care and carry health insurance?

 

There are families that spend every waking hour and every penny to get blood for a hemophilia son. here are families that work day in and day our on helping a family member who has leukemia or down syndrome or multiple sclerosis or Lou Gehrigs .. why is your choice more important than they are?

 

Well, in fact, they are no less important than Kurt, just less famous. Many of them are sick because of fate. Some may be sick because of an industrial condition (like black lung). You don't know everything, you only think you do. Almost all of them think their needs are important and deserve to be helped.

 

I am told by veterans that the hallways at the VA are lined with young men and women whose limbs have been blown off facing years of surgery and rehab. They are not famous or rich. They joined to serve you (foolishly perhaps) and now they have major physical disabilities. That is no doubt depressing too. So they most likely have a variety of mental problems too. And many of them are not yet 21 years of age. Your government put them there and you are the one they did it for. It does not matter if you asked them to -- your government asked them to and they went.

 

WHY DIDN'T YOUR GOVERNMENT ASK YOU? You expect the government to GIVE to you but you did not give what they gave. You and the poster who complained think the government ought to do more -- why don't you do it? why don't you volunteer (like the injured veterans did?) What have you done in your community to help treat mental health? Where have you contributed time or money to the problem?

 

Much has been given to you but how much have you given back? Zilch. You mostly complain. Your main contribution to any outcome is to complain. Before you get in line with your hand out tray working for it. You'd be surprised how THAT helps. And if you think other people need help then give them help. Spend some time serving others and maybe YOU can learn something.

 

This ought to be a guitar forum. But if you and/or others are going to introduce heated subjects and make loose and inaccurate generalization then do not be surprised if your politicized phantasms are not warmly received.

[NeoConMan]

But if you and/or others are going to introduce heated subjects and make loose and inaccurate generalization then do not be surprised if your politicized phantasms are not warmly received.

 

I swear to God you could be my 72 year old father....

That is NOT an insult in any way, it's just that his computer and typing skills are less than refined, so I know it's not him.

 

You sure you don't have a long lost brother born in Oklahoma in the late 30's?

 

Thank you for your articulate and well-phrased response.

I see the bar has been set pretty high in the forum now...

:-)

[FirstMeasure]

 

 

 

 

Drunk and dead is NOT the same thing as heroin addiction. Heroin is no accident.

Drink' date=' feel good, have a good time, drink some more, drink alot more, judgement impaired - drink TOO MUCH....

 

I can follow that logic line, hell I've done it myself.

 

 

Heroin? Bad idea from the first second.

Sorry, no comparison.

 

 

 

I've lost several friends to alcohol related deaths since 1980, NONE of them [i']wanted[/i] to die.

It was simply a factor - albeit a major one - in a chain of events that killed each one.

 

Not including Drunk Driving, I know more than my share of friends that have drank themselves to death, they were alcoholics. Bon scott and John Bonham drank hard alcohol every day and passed out every night. As far as I'm concerned they died of thier Drug Addictions.

 

Of course the similarities end there, if you had to administer alcohol with a Needle and Spoon, I'd have no Idea what Drunk felt like. (just to make sure there's no mistake, I've never tried heroine)

[wicked1]

 

I am told by veterans that the hallways at the VA are lined with young men and women whose limbs have been blown off facing years of surgery and rehab. They are not famous or rich. They joined to serve you (foolishly perhaps) and now they have major physical disabilities. That is no doubt depressing too. So they most likely have a variety of mental problems too. And many of them are not yet 21 years of age. Your government put them there and you are the one they did it for. It does not matter if you asked them to -- your government asked them to and they went.

 

 

First of all, Gitfidl, if you'd actually understood what I wrote, you would see that *nowhere* did I or Homz advocate the government giving anything to anyone. As for the VA, well...they've worked really hard for years as an institution to make sure that nobody gets a diagnosis of PTSD. One of their patients even tape-recorded his session with a VA psychologist who said they were going out of their way to not diagnose it. As long as they aren't diagnosing it, they don't have to worry about providing the long-term treatment necessary and possibly life-long disability payments as well. Look him up, it just made the news a couple of days ago. He is being referred to as Sgt. X. The Senate Armed Services Committee refused to investigate the allegation and the Army "cleared itself" of any wrong-doing. Our veterans are currently waiting at least 6 months trying to get needed health care when they come out of the military and into the VA system. Military suicides are at their highest rate in 3 decades. The American Psychological Association found that there is a 40% shortage of active-duty psychologists in the Army & Navy. Two independent agencies did a year-long study and found that the VA's current standards on PTSD disability claims is "crude and provides an overly general assessment of PTSD claims." How is that taking care of our soldiers? (Those last 2 tidbits are straight from the VFW's magazine, btw).

 

I never said any one person was more important than another. The thread was about Kurt Cobain and I objected to the string of posts just on page 1 labelling him as nothing more than a junkie and a coward because he killed himself. The man had obvious problems and he needed help. Like a *lot* of people, he didn't get it. Most patients with bi-polar disorder go about 10 years after symptoms appear before they are diagnosed. Referrals to psychiatrists (the *only* ones of those healthcare professionals you mentioned who can actually prescribe medications) usually take 6 months between referral and actually being able to see a doctor. That leaves most of us in the hands of our primary care physicians and many of them are not asking the questions to determine if a patient may have a mental disorder. If you've got a physical ailment, it's pretty dang easy to see and most people will go to a doctor. If you have a mental illness, there are still a helluva lot of people who will never mention it to their doctor because they don't want the "label." That was the entirity of my point. Nobody mentioned anything about government hand-outs, but YOU. The very people that *deserve* to have our government take care of their health care are flat-out being ignored so they can save some money. (BTW, the same folks were being pressured to not diagnose traumatic brain injuries as well).

 

You really did set the bar high. You've written 2 long-*** posts arguing against something that wasn't even said. And I don't know who you are referring to as the person who introduced the topic and then complained about the responses, but I did *not* introduce the topic of Kurt Cobain. I did, however, complain about the mean-spirited and ignorant responses it was drawing.

[Boston004681]

The late 80s and early 90s was were a fantastic period of music in my opinion. The hair bands were gone (thank God) and replaced by Nirvana' date=' The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Janes Addiction, etc. Kurt Cobain dies and within months Mathbox 20 takes over alternative radio. WTF happened?[/quote']

 

I'd have to say to 60's & 70's were the best 20 years. but yes. that 20 years was amazing too.

[Boston004681]

I'll agree with you in principle.

 

In reality' date=' I think of it like this;

 

Buy a deck of cards, open it up, how many Jokers?

 

By putting yet another [b']Victim Card [/b]in the deck, there's one more opening into the Gravy Train of Free Taxpayer-Funded Rides, and the people most in need will decide the hassles and hoops are not worth it.

 

The freeloaders who have all day, every day, to game the system have no pride and they will jump thru hoops like a circus poodle for their "special handout" that they deserve due to their "special condition."

 

Welfare with an angle - just one more angle....

Get a deck of cards from Uncle Sam and there's 45 Jokers and 4 Welfare Queens with an IUO for the missing cards.

 

 

Consider THIS;

Many more jobs are out of reach if you're clinically diagnosed with even the slightest mental condition.

Functioning people simply cope - for better or worse.

Ask Homz about enlisting in the Navy.

 

There's a reality to accompany all the feel-good stuff.

 

 

if people need help, so be it.

but those who abuse they system should not be allowed to use it.

[RichCI]

How is it that a guy who has posted nothing but promos for his web site (read: spam) starts a thread that gets so many replies?

 

Spiritinthesky

[Bluemoon]

Have you ever read YOUR posts

 

Please' date=' at least add a smiley to your post or SOMETHING!

:-)

 

[/quote']

 

 

Here you go. Just for you. Now go off and slay some more dragons.

 

[KSG_Standard]

After reading through all six pages, I'm still confused. Was Cobain a junky coward? Or a mentally ill junky coward?

Or an unlucky Junky? Or a poetic genius who died tragically as a junky? Or a tragic reminder of the problems of our medical system, who was a junky?

[TheLiveSoundGuy]

Maybe just a ****** bag who's now ancient f'n history.