What lessons have we learned in the past three years?

[fortyearspickn]

What I've learned recently ?    A lot more in the last 3 years than the previous 30.  Embarrassed  to admit it.  Ironically, most of what I've learned recently was brought about by external pressures -  pandemics, politics, protests, politics.  The daily cognitive dissonance in the news caused internal conflict which pushed me to try to figure out how to reconcile it with  'The Meaning of Life".  

"Live the moment."  is actually an ancient teaching.  More recently -  "The Power of Now",  or "Think Like A Monk".  We've had the dumbed down versions abound for years-  "Stop to smell the coffee."  "Don't Let The Turkeys Get You Down."  which, for me, were too glib at the time. Or maybe I wasn't ready.   A better one - "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."   But we're all in different places throughout our lives, and in different places than those around us.   I would't want a Supreme Court Justice  spending all her time 'smelling the coffee'.   But - to me, that is what some of the 'journalists' should be doing.  Because most today admit they went into 'journalism' to be influencers and change peoples minds, not  simply Report The Facts.    And, others become full time 'activists'  while we are too busy working, paying taxes and raising families.    It's a day to day challenge for most of us to find the right 'balance'.   Sounds like HarVie has found it ! 

[badbluesplayer]

[Whitefang]

18 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said:

Yeah my entire point is that it doesn't make national news.  I'm sure this will be picked apart but ....

Oxford Alabama

Officer shot and killed suspect.  We don't know the color of the officer because the local news didn't think that was an important detail I guess.   Perhaps because the guy looked like this:

https://www.wvtm13.com/article/shooting-involving-police-under-investigation-in-oxford/39072584

Yes he was shooting at the officers instead of wrestling with them and trying to grab a taser.  Does that make it ok? 

Of course not.  You're off the rails now.  Of course, his shooting at the officers gives the cops an out.  And there's a HUGE difference between cops killing someone in the commission of a crime and shooting at them and someone unarmed being chased down and shot in the back of the head.  As for "trying to grab a taser", the taser was already deployed(by the officer),  and the man was grabbing at it(probably not understanding how they work) no doubt to prevent the cop from firing it again.  He was a Congalese refugee.  I have no idea how long he's been in the United States.  You're somehow beginning to remind me of that girl in Alabama, in a newsreel I saw on TV in the early '60's complaining about the black initiative to desegregate the public schools down there by arguing.....

"Yew don't see US trying to get into THEIR schools, do ya?  So why do they wanna come into OUR schools?"  

And to digress.....

I notice the shooting piece you posted took place in OXFORD, ALA( from the Dylan song?  ).  We had a school shooting here back in November in Oxford, MI.  Weird coincidence.  And today in the paper was a story that a teen in the UK was arrested for trying to pose as Ethan Crumbly( the Oxford, MI shooter) and threatening to go back to the school and "finish what I started!"    And making that threat by TELEPHONE!    Plus it seems he was making similar phone calls to other cities and countries, also posing as suspected or convicted shooters.  So we can't say America has all the nutjobs!  

Whitefang

[jaxson50]

4 hours ago, NighthawkChris said:

Yes turn off the news!!! +1000000 I don’t pay attention to anything that isn’t 10’ in front of me these days. Ain’t a damn thing I can do about todays issues anyhow. 

I don't know how old the average forum member,  but I'm sure many can remember that we got along just fine with 30 minutes of nightly national news followed by 30 minutes of local and state news. 

Seriously, I have to ask myself almost daily,  are we better off today with sensory overload? Perhaps,  just maybe our brains just are not prepared for the 24/7  stimulation provided by our computers,. News, controversy, angst,  self debasement and harassment from people who mean absolutely nothing to us. 

The internet and all the crap that comes with it is a double edged sword,  want to know why young people are so screwed up today?  Ask yourself why is aboriginal people are happier then civilised people today?

[jaxson50]

1 hour ago, ghost_of_fl said:

This is really simple. You don't "wrestle" with the police.  You don't run from the police.   And you don't grab at their equipment.   Violate any of those 3 and you risk getting hurt or killed.   End of story as far as I'm concerned.   Nobody could ever convince me that grabbing a cops taser should be a protected right.   It can be used to incapacitate the officer, who has a firearm on their belt.   I feel like this should be common sense but I guess it's not anymore.  

It all comes back to that one word, compliance.  The more a suspect resist compliance, the officer has no choice other than to increase the level of force aka, discomfort,  or pain,  

[fortyearspickn]

WhiteFang  wrote"      "Of course, his shooting at the officers gives the cops an out."     Gee, that doesn't sound biased !!!🤪    

 Whether you shoot at a cop (or any armed citizen)  or you try to disarm a cop (or any armed citizen)  or are white or black or in-between.   You are risking Your Own Life.   I'm pretty sure it works that way in most other countries too. 

     Darwin's Law -  it's real folks.    

[jaxson50]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:22 PM, Californiaman said:

I think a lot of these tragic instances you all are describing are always up to interpretation, especially when the narrative is to someone's advantage.  It is a shame that someone's poor choices lead to such tragic outcomes, but what is even worse is when people start spouting off about racial, economic, social, political, religious, and environmental justice because it fits their narrative.

 

Good points, as we all know,  there is justice is unattainable,  it is an abstract concept, specially when trying to obtain justice for  the wrongs suffered by people who have been dead foir a century or more. 

A child is killed in an accident caused by a drunk driver, how do you extract any measure of justice for the family? It's impossible,  you can punish the person responsible., that doesn't make the family whole again, it just punishes the perp and causes misery for their family.

How do people who were wronged by slavery get justice when they died 100 years ago?  

 

[Whitefang]

Sounds as if all you nazis think a bullet in the back of the head is deserved by ANYONE, black OR white,  who resists an officer and despite not endangering said officer in any way.  

And how does saying "Shooting at the officers gave the cops an out" even sound biased?  Look....

The discussion started over claiming the preponderance of white police officers killing non threatening black men(and boys) and for no apparent reason.  Somebody then started whining about black cops killing non threatening white men(and boys) for no apparent reason not getting news coverage.  And as nothing even remotely interesting winds up getting recorded on somebody's cell phone and sent into cyberspace, I'm sure if those incidents ever really happened the proof of it HAS to be found somewhere, so WHERE is it? 

Or could it be that black cops killing non threatening white men(and boys) for no apparent reason really doesn't happen all that much(or at all)?  

Showing me a photo of some white guy who got shot by some cops in Alabama during a SHOOTOUT with the cops is really no proof of anything remotely related to the subject at hand.  

And it's really not only black men,  but anyone who's non-white.  I very early on mentioned the incident of the visiting Dominican in Southwest Detroit who was killed by multiple gunshots by police while he was reaching for his wallet,  apparently thinking the cops were "La Migre"  and reaching for his visa papers.

Whitefang

[zigzag]

Michigan... the state where the governor was going to be kidnapped (and who knows what) by idiots who were upset that their rights were violated by mask mandates. Most republican legislators are sticking to their stories in support of a fraudulent election, along with  some 30% of Americans, in a country where electors are being threatened to the point where states are having problems finding electors who will do their jobs due to threats.

The right has gone bonkers. A small minority now controls the politics of this country. We are supposed to be a democracy, but many issues that are supported by large majority are being shot down by the smaller minority  of which many on this forum represent. That is NOT a democracy. Of course, everyone has a right to be heard, but when it comes time to legislate, the voices of the MAJORITY should prevail.

What have I learned over the last three years: 1) The government has a responsibility to protect its population from enemies, foreign or domestic, in whatever way it feels is necessary, based in the constitution, good faith principles, science, and truth.  If you commit the crime, you've got to be ready to do the time. 2) People will not usually act in the best interests of the whole, and often, will not even act in their own best interests. 3) Lying is acceptable behavior. Integrity and honor mean nothing, esp. in power politics.  4) As Bertrand Russell once said: I would never die for my beliefs, because I might be wrong.  5) As many of you have already said, the media is the problem, not so much as for what they say, though much of it is slanted and much of it, disinformation, but for what they  don't tell you, or their priorities they assign, or the outrage they have that they want you to share.  But, we cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater. A free press is necessary for a democracy. Not every reporter lies, and the truth is out there if you can find it. 6) 45 was evil, a chronic liar, and he still controls the republican party.  Republican leaders are hypocrites, and most have no interest in serving the nation and their constituents. The Republican party used to be a party of honor and conservative principles. It is no longer either of those things.  and it is stifling the progress of the nation to serve the interests of the few.

Edited April 23, 2022 by zigzag

[Sgt. Pepper]

Thank the Lord we have the career politician's Sleepy Joe Biden and Grandma Pelosi to lead us back to the great nation we once were.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[NighthawkChris]

We have had awful choices for the president for as long as I can remember. The last few elections have been particularly awful. It all comes down to the “elites” who will allow the corporate powers conserve their well, power and influence of the laws that govern this land for the sake of making someone else more money. In this country if you have enough money, you can make anything happen, even break the law everyone else abides by and gets shot for disobeying. It’s a fact that the rich and powerful don’t go to jail, serve time like the “poors” do so why should someone respect this legal system that is blatantly corrupt? Won’t catch my backing the blue… nope… It's like supporting a corrupt system and putting signs on our lawns, stickers on our car, waving flags outside our houses on flagpoles for the distant to see...  I call BS.  People support their "vision" of the law, now what it really is.  That's the sad reality of it all.  Not saying I'm a cop hater or going on a "riot", but respecting the law...  Nah, I just comply - different than belief - basically obeying it to avoid negative consequences.  And I do care about my neighbor.  WTF does anyone else want from someone? 

Edited April 24, 2022 by NighthawkChris

[fortyearspickn]

Our 15 y/o granddaughter was shot multiple times with an AirSoft gun yesterday in a 'Drive By'.  A Tik Tok inspired fad, has been happening according to police frequently here.   Here -  upper middle class suburbs 20 miles from downtown San Antonio.  A bullet from a 9mm will go around 2000fps - an airsoft around 500 fps.  Leave bruises, welts, can break skin.  And, of course, the 'you'll put your eye out with that Red Ryder' line comes to mind.   Broad daylight on the sidewalk a block from her home.   Nothing on the local news about it.  Only on the social media -  "Next Door".  

Justice ?    I'm wondering - if these teenage boys were actually caught by the under-funded police - what would 'justice' be?   My idea and my son's idea would probably be 180 degrees different than the criminals parents.   "It's not assault - it's just kids playing with a bb gun."   That's why we have laws, sentencing guidelines and parole boards.   Oh, and our other granddaughter has been regularly bullied by a 200 pound girl in school.  School has done nothing - bully continues to brag and intimidate even after slamming her head into the wall with no consequences.   "Because we don't know what your daughter did to provoke the attack."   

Some here do not support the police because they believe the JUSTICE SYSTEM is broken.  Ask yourself - "WHO broke it?"  Who violates sentencing guidelines?   Who chooses not to prosecute shoplifters if they only take $1000 in booty at a time?   Who appoints parole boards that ignore guideline and let murderers out before their light, plea deal sentences are served?   Who ignores our immigration laws?   Who claims they are against bullying but seen to encourage it?   

Answer that question honestly and you'll be half way to seeing a solution.   But, what those who are intentionally breaking our Justice System are counting on - is apathy.  Getting fed up and going back to work, paying taxes and, like the antelope - hope the predator will pick someone else's kid out of the herd. 

Oh, and to beat a dead horse -  "Toy Gun".   Air Soft guns cost hundreds $  and look IDENTICAL to real ones.  Sooner or later, in this country of 330 million - some 'kids with toy guns' are going to shoot at someone legally carrying a firearm and he is going to shoot back.   Then what?   We'll decide on  'justice' based on his age, race and job description?  

 

[fortyearspickn]

WhiteFang wrote:   "Sounds as if all you nazis think a bullet in the back of the head is deserved by ANYONE, black OR white,  who resists an officer and despite not endangering said officer in any way.  "

Either point to an exact quote where someone here wrote that -  or delete your 'nazi' reference and apologize. 

[zigzag]

*forty years*, first of all, I don't think most democrats want to defund the police. In fact, most minority neighborhoods don't want to defund the police... mainly armchair radical libs who are in the vast minority of the democratic party. Most do believe in police reform and retraining for those situations. Police reform was shot down by republicans. They love to shoot stuff. Second. most politics are local. Politicians are individuals, and as such, each has his/her own faults. That's why voting a straight ticket isn't necessarily a good thing. Third, sentencing guidelines are just that, and they have min./max. sentencing windows. They are not determined by the judges and lawyers trying the cases, though judges do make their judgments based on the circumstances, within the guidelines. There is no doubt many sentences don't fit the crime, but when you have privatized and overcrowded prison systems, the answer may not be to build more prisons.

I know teachers, good teachers, are leaving public education, because pay is lousy and working conditions are worse. Plus, the quality of kids coming through public education is lower. They are undisciplined and unmotivated. I blame it mostly on the parents. Seems the right thing to do is to bring discipline back into the schools by demanding more from teachers and students, and pay teachers more, and generally fund all public schools equally and let private schools fend for themselves... that's why they're private. Private education vouchers are NOT good for public education.  Also, parents are not professional educators. Let the educators determine curriculum and policies.

Edited April 24, 2022 by zigzag

[badbluesplayer]

30 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said:

WhiteFang wrote:   "Sounds as if all you nazis think a bullet in the back of the head is deserved by ANYONE, black OR white,  who resists an officer and despite not endangering said officer in any way.  "

Either point to an exact quote where someone here wrote that -  or delete your 'nazi' reference and apologize. 

Ever since you've been on here you've been running your mouth more than anybody else for no reason other than this is a captive audience and you have the lowest self esteem of anybody on here.  And if there's anybody on here who's likely to be a nazi, it's clearly you.  Gawd, you're a tortured soul.  You'd normally have to pay a professional to listen to all your gibberish.  And they'd throw you out the door after the first session, and they'd be talking about you after you left.

[Whitefang]

The "nazi" reference was only to drive home a point.

First, Not only do some take me WAY out of context sometimes,  but others have gone to a lot of trouble to convince me it's OK for cops to kill anybody for not "falling in line" or doing "as ordered".   Which leads me to think maybe police officer should trade in their blue uniforms for some brown shirts.  And therefore the "nazi" comment. 

I never once condoned police brutality under any circumstances.

I don't feel anyone is superior to others based on race, religion or sexual orientation, 

Like Oscar Levant, I think the only difference between republicans and democrats is that democrats think poor people should be allowed to be corrupt too.  

So, what is it makes YOU think I'd be a nazi? 

Whitefang

 

[zigzag]

*ghost*, first of all, I have a very difficult time reading your graphs, so I cannot comment. But I would say that the radical right now dominates and controls the republican party, and even this forum. I cannot say the same for the left in that most are not "socialists" or radical. I would also say that it is the ability of the party to capture the center that will win federal elections, and right now, the right isn't there. Some of the left seem radical when measured by the standards of the right.

[zigzag]

As far as CRT goes, I think all perspectives of history should be taught; all documented historic events should be covered. Kids should be allowed to interpret the impact and meaning of these events for themselves once all sides have been presented.  I also believe slavery and Jim Crow was just wrong. Being an old, southern, white guy who lived through Jim Crow, I can tell you that the undercurrents of racism still exist (being exposed and normalized by Trumpers), and it needs to be extinguished. I feel no guilt for having lived through it or  for being white, but I do not deny that it exists or that my parents accepted it as being "just the way things are."

[zigzag]

2 minutes ago, ghost_of_fl said:

Yeah done trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.   Onward and upward. 

Thank you.

[zigzag]

OK ghost, I zoomed your graph, and it is still as clear as mud. What it shows me, and I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong, is that older conservatives are,  for the most part, more racially biased (whatever that means). No revelations there. WTF is your point?

[fortyearspickn]

57 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

The "nazi" reference was only to drive home a point.

First, Not only do some take me WAY out of context sometimes,  but others have gone to a lot of trouble to convince me it's OK for cops to kill anybody for not "falling in line" or doing "as ordered".   Which leads me to think maybe police officer should trade in their blue uniforms for some brown shirts.  And therefore the "nazi" comment. 

I never once condoned police brutality under any circumstances.

I don't feel anyone is superior to others based on race, religion or sexual orientation, 

Like Oscar Levant, I think the only difference between republicans and democrats is that democrats think poor people should be allowed to be corrupt too.  

So, what is it makes YOU think I'd be a nazi? 

Whitefang

 

"Sounds as if all you nazis think a bullet in the back of the head is deserved by ANYONE, black OR white,  who resists an officer and despite not endangering said officer in any way.  "

All You Nazis ...  yeah, that's certainly driving home a point.  Again - put up an exact reference or delete the slander and apologize,

 

"So, what is it makes YOU think I'd be a nazi? "

Trying to imply I called or suggested you were a Nazi - is weak, lame way to deflect from the fact you are calling others ( I assume me) on here Nazis.    "Accuse your opponent of what you are doing."   Provide an exact reference or quote where I suggested you were a Nazi.   Of course - I've asked you back up your accusations here   several times and all you do is deflect.   For example:   " I never once condoned police brutality under any circumstances.".  Provide a quote or reference where I suggested you did.  If anything is clear from your comments - it's that you believe police are brutal and abhor it.  The opposite of condone. 

I'm done with trying to get you to support your accusations.  Will let you have the last word.  

[badbluesplayer]

Just now, fortyearspickn said:

"Sounds as if all you nazis think a bullet in the back of the head is deserved by ANYONE, black OR white,  who resists an officer and despite not endangering said officer in any way.  "

All You Nazis ...  yeah, that's certainly driving home a point.  Again - put up an exact reference or delete the slander and apologize,

 

"So, what is it makes YOU think I'd be a nazi? "

Trying to imply I called or suggested you were a Nazi - is weak, lame way to deflect from the fact you are calling others ( I assume me) on here Nazis.    "Accuse your opponent of what you are doing."   Provide an exact reference or quote where I suggested you were a Nazi.   Of course - I've asked you back up your accusations here   several times and all you do is deflect.   For example:   " I never once condoned police brutality under any circumstances.".  Provide a quote or reference where I suggested you did.  If anything is clear from your comments - it's that you believe police are brutal and abhor it.  The opposite of condone. 

I'm done with trying to get you to support your accusations.  Will let you have the last word.  

You'd def be the most likely to be hanging around the far end of the Confederate Flag table at the flea market.  Anyway, you know why you guys are so dangerous?  Cause you're killing us...   

[fortyearspickn]

18 minutes ago, ghost_of_fl said:

Yeah done trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.   Onward and upward. 

Ghost -   It's like stepping on a balloon.  They try to wear you down with deflection.  

ZZ's   "But I would say that the radical right now dominates and controls the republican party, and even this forum."  is just yet another example of his calling the kettle black.  Thinks this forum is a sewer that should be shut down - and seems intent on bringing that about.  Or at least getting this thread deleted.  It's how they roll.  

[zigzag]

23 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said:

Ghost -   It's like stepping on a balloon.  They try to wear you down with deflection.  

ZZ's   "But I would say that the radical right now dominates and controls the republican party, and even this forum."  is just yet another example of his calling the kettle black.  Thinks this forum is a sewer that should be shut down - and seems intent on bringing that about.  Or at least getting this thread deleted.  It's how they roll.  

Yep. This forum does not exist to advance political agendas. I'd be just as happy with a ban, and my preference would be to take you down with me.

Edited April 24, 2022 by zigzag

[jvi]

Ive learned the meaning of WTF ....