Perplexing J-45 Buzz/Rattle

[QRST4]

Hello all. I originally posted this in Repair/Restoration, and user Dave F suggested that I'd receive more feedback if posted here.

I joined specifically hoping to zero in on a fix for a perplexing buzz/rattle I hear from my '20 J-45. It's not normal fret buzz. The action at the 12th fret is 6/64" bass side, 4/64" treble side. Pretty typical. The action at the nut is OK--when I fret at the 3rd fret, there's enough clearance that I hear a little "plink" when I tap the string down over the 1st fret.

The noise comes from the area of the bridge, but I haven't pinpointed its exact location. It appears under specific conditions:

1. While I am playing "rest strokes" (in my playing, this is normally the bass notes of a bluegrass style "boom-chick" rhythm)
2. with a flatpick (higher dynamics than finger style)
3. in the low register of the instrument (it is most pronounced on the 5th string C3, but can be heard on the 4th and 6th strings at various fret positions to a lesser extent)

I haven't encountered this specific issue on any other guitar I've played--even guitars that cost 10% of what I paid for my J-45. I don't think my playing is to blame--my touch is on the lighter end of the spectrum. Nonetheless, it seems the problem has something to do with the energy going into instrument during a rest stroke. Perhaps frequency plays a part, too?

The guitar has been inspected at three different shops in my area, including one which has a sterling reputation (the 12th Fret in Portland, OR, where it was set up after I bought it). The feedback I've received has ranged from "I don't hear anything" to "I hear the problem but I can't figure it out".

I've had some fairly typical post-market work done to the instrument: the installation of a bone nut and saddle, and an LR Baggs Anthem. To the best of my recollection, I first noticed the noise after the Anthem was installed. At first, I thought that was the problem, and after a lot of back and forth between Sweetwater, Caleb at Baggs, and the shop that did the installation, I returned the original Anthem and got a replacement from Sweetwater. The issue persisted after the replacement was installed. It's not the pickup.

I read on multiple forum threads that the endpin jack can be problematic, so I fooled around with that a bit (even though the noise is clearly not coming from that area of the guitar). It's not the endpin jack.  Ditto tuning machines.

I've also tried putting the original saddle back in, installing different bridge pins, inspecting the pickup wires and mic module (inside the guitar), installing a variety of different strings. I gave the neck just smidgen more relief (it's probably at about .014). No dice.

I gave up in frustration and for months, I dealt with it as best as I could. Grin and bear it, ya know? I'll sometimes go weeks playing exclusively finger style, under which condition the noise isn't as prevalent (but never completely a non-issue). I periodically try to troubleshoot it by producing the rattle and holding my head close to the guitar to try pinpointing it, and having my wife touch/damp various guitar/pickup parts to see if it disappears. Without exception, this ends in frustration.

Yesterday I revisited it again. I produced and isolated the noise by playing rest strokes at C3 , and for no real good reason, I tried something I hadn't thought of before: mashing down on the string very hard with my fretting finger. The noise disappeared!

Adapting my playing to work around the noise, in light of this discovery, is out of the question for three reasons:

1. mashing the string down that hard defies principles of good fretting technique,
2. and besides, the pressure required to make the rattle disappear causes the pitch to go significantly sharp
3. furthermore, I paid what I view as a lot of money for a fine acoustic instrument--I want my money's worth

Nonetheless, this is the first break I've had in understanding the problem. My first idea--not sure why--was to check the frets with my handy Stew-Mac fret rocker. They look pretty darn level until up around where it doesn't matter. So I've made some progress, but again, I'm stumped.

Y'all have any fresh ideas?

Thanks for your consideration.

Edited November 15, 2023 by QRST4

[rct]

I assume you are muting on your "rest strokes".  If so, you are lightly pushing the muted strings into a slightly high fret up there by the sound hole thingy.  I know, fret rocker, but that doesn't always show you a slightly high fret or three.

When you push down like a good guitar player should you actually lift the string higher up the neck,  probably enough to keep the wound strings from banging against the offending fret(s), keeping in mind that mere gazillameters can mean the difference on the wound strings.

That's my guess.  Good luck with it.

rct

[QRST4]

4 minutes ago, rct said:

I assume you are muting on your "rest strokes".  If so, you are lightly pushing the muted strings into a slightly high fret up there by the sound hole thingy.  I know, fret rocker, but that doesn't always show you a slightly high fret or three.

When you push down like a good guitar player should you actually lift the string higher up the neck,  probably enough to keep the wound strings from banging against the offending fret(s), keeping in mind that mere gazillameters can mean the difference on the wound strings.

No, I'm not doing any muting on the rest strokes, other than the pick coming to rest on the next string toward the floor--a de facto mute. But again, my touch is not all that aggressive. The weight of my arm is mostly what's driving my pick through the string, and the string that the pick comes to rest on isn't contacting any frets as a result of the impact.

I'm having trouble visualizing what you mean by "when you push down like a good player you lift the string higher up the neck". When you push down with your fretting hand? How does that lift the string higher up the neck?

At any rate, I truly don't think my technique is at issue. As I said, this guitar is the outlier among many guitars. I have an L-00 with very similar setup specs that I can play the same way, and I don't get this very particular noise.

But anyways, thanks for your response. I'll probably figure it out eventually.

[ksdaddy]

Tighten the the truss rod a tiny bit. Shoot for 0.007” if you want a target. 

[gearbasher]

I had a '99 J-45 with a rattle that drove me crazy. There were two nuts and bolts from the bridge through the bridge plate. One nut was loose and the washer was rattling. I snugged it up and the rattle was gone. Now, if your guitar has these, I doubt a shop would have missed it. But, it doesn't hurt to check.

[Murph]

It's the ceiling fan.

[fortyearspickn]

From the area of the bridge, disappears when you mash down hard on third fret 5th string, not evident if using finger instead of pick.    My vote is that it isn't a 'sympathetic' vibration at a specific pitch but a delinquent fret way up the neck.  I assume all the 'usual suspects' have been ruled out  and you're not fretting any of the other strings - so it's a vibration of the string against one of the frets around 12, not visible to the naked eye - only ear.   Maybe put a very thin piece of film/adhesive on those frets to see if it does anything good.   

You're right -  It's a puzzlement ! 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I don't think any of my Martin's have screws holding down the support under the bridge.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[Dave F]

Maybe that's where Gibson gets the thump?

[QRST4]

WOW! Some new things to investigate. I will start with the ceiling fan.🤓 Thanks all, I will check back in here as I go down the list.

[Sgt. Pepper]

2 hours ago, Dave F said:

Maybe that's where Gibson gets the thump?

Probably

[thegreatgumbino]

1. I may have missed this, but you bought it new, correct?  
2. Do you have any authorized Gibson repair shops near you?

I ask because I had a similar issue years ago with a brand new Sheryl Crow Southern Jumbo Supreme.   The abbreviated version is it had a weird buzz from the day I purchased it new. Numerous techs, luthiers and a Gibson authorized warranty shop couldn’t figure it out. I owned the SCSJ for two years and it spent almost 7 full months out of the last 8 1/2 at one of the shops trying to be fixed. Two trips back to Bozeman for warranty work, and they decided to replace it with the guitar of my choice.  Ben Broyles with Gibson was fantastic to work with and said the goal was "to help reignite your Gibson dream!"  I'm now a die hard Gibson fan for life as a result of my experience.

Ultimately, if you purchased it new, I would contact Gibson Montana and get them involved under warranty.  Best of luck with your struggles.

Here's the long version and resolution:

 

[QRST4]

Thanks for your story.

I did buy the J-45 brand new, and there are a couple Gibson authorized dealers nearby, one of which sold me the guitar and installed the Anthem pickup. I will not go back there, because when I picked up the guitar after the pickup installation, I discovered the pickup didn't work. Lucky for me, when I found this out, it was because I plugged in at home to test it right before leaving for a gig. It would have been embarrassing to show up to the gig otherwise. Nothing wrong with the pickup, it was an installation issue. I took the guitar back to the shop and he had it operational in five minutes. But it proved to me that at least sometimes, the tech doesn't check his work. Very discouraging.

I might take it over to the other shop (a Guitar Center), but I'm not optimistic.

Escalating to Gibson might be a good idea if all else fails.

[BoSoxBiker]

Can you expand on this?

On 11/14/2023 at 9:16 PM, QRST4 said:

Nonetheless, this is the first break I've had in understanding the problem. My first idea--not sure why--was to check the frets with my handy Stew-Mac fret rocker. They look pretty darn level until up around where it doesn't matter. So I've made some progress, but again, I'm stumped.

 

[fortyearspickn]

If' you've had this issue looked at by 3 other places, including a reputable shop .... I too would have less hope going to a GC tech.  BUT - you never know.  He might be very experienced and you might hit him when he's not busy and highly motivated to solve the puzzle three others couldn't!      I'm chiming in again because I remembered, after my first comment - I had a similar problem. on a 15 y/o SJ200.  Came out of nowhere and went away after I changed strings and tweaked the truss rod (as .   I'm sure that's been tried on your J45 already.  G'Luck ! 

[J-50Jeff]

I have a 2018 L-00 Standard that I purchased new in 2019. About a year ago, I started experiencing the same fret buzzing that you describe. The buzzing got worse when capoed at the 3rd fret or higher. I tried everything to fix it: new strings, adjust the truss rod, different gauge strings. replaced the original saddle (I installed abone saddle shortly after I purchased the guitar). Nothing worked.

Then I ran a 6" scale across the frets and found the 15th fret to be slightly high. I also thought that it was in the area where it didn't matter. This summer I took it to a luthier and he confirmed that the high fret was a problem. The actual fretboard was high in that area, so his recommendation was to pull the lower frets, level the fretboard and install new frets. I had him do the repair and the buzzing is gone.

Jeff

[BoSoxBiker]

13 hours ago, J-50Jeff said:

I have a 2018 L-00 Standard that I purchased new in 2019. About a year ago, I started experiencing the same fret buzzing that you describe. The buzzing got worse when capoed at the 3rd fret or higher. I tried everything to fix it: new strings, adjust the truss rod, different gauge strings. replaced the original saddle (I installed abone saddle shortly after I purchased the guitar). Nothing worked.

Then I ran a 6" scale across the frets and found the 15th fret to be slightly high. I also thought that it was in the area where it didn't matter. This summer I took it to a luthier and he confirmed that the high fret was a problem. The actual fretboard was high in that area, so his recommendation was to pull the lower frets, level the fretboard and install new frets. I had him do the repair and the buzzing is gone.

Jeff

That's much in line with why I asked QRST4 (the OP) about the fret rocker part of the investigation.  That area very much matters. Especially with some Gibson necks being on the over-set side of things.

I had a somewhat similar issue on my 2018 Hummingbird Standard. Much less buzz than I think we're talking about in this thread. Anyhow, My Luthier suggested the less aggressive approach to start with, which was to just knock down the frets a little starting with that dreaded 14th fret hump. Only possible because I never play anything down there on acoustic and that it was not an extreme amount. Still works like a charm 2 years later.

[RBSinTo]

QRST4,

Turn the guitar over, with the soundhole facing down, and hold it for a few minutes.

If honey starts to drip out, the problem is that there's a bee's nest inside it.

Hope this helps.

RBSinTo

 

[QRST4]

On 11/15/2023 at 3:13 AM, gearbasher said:

I had a '99 J-45 with a rattle that drove me crazy. There were two nuts and bolts from the bridge through the bridge plate. One nut was loose and the washer was rattling. I snugged it up and the rattle was gone. Now, if your guitar has these, I doubt a shop would have missed it. But, it doesn't hurt to check.

I checked this out yesterday during a string change. Even though my guitar has the pearloid bridge dots on either side of the pins, there are no screws protruding through the other side. I find this a bit odd. But anyways, I can eliminate this as a suspect.

[QRST4]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:13 AM, BoSoxBiker said:

Can you expand on this?

 

Sure thing. When I mashed down on the string at the 3rd fret, I noticed a *very* slight rise in the string at about the 5th fret. I think of it like a see-saw. Imagine being at playground after a fresh rain and the ground is soft and muddy beneath the see-saw. If you push one end of the see-saw down really hard, the muddy earth will give a little, and the opposite end of the see-saw rises just that much more. It's just barely noticeable to the naked eye, but it's there. 

Since the string does rise ever so slightly, it supports the notion of a high fret, thus the fret rocker. I've practically always been under the impression that the frets over the body don't particularly matter, which has been reinforced all these years because I've never had as puzzling an issue as this. And to the naked eye, it doesn't appear that the strings are making contact with those high frets. Additionally, I dismissed it because the source of the buzz/rattle very much seems to be coming from the bridge. But from what reading I'm doing, this isn't all that uncommon. So I may yet investigate a board leveling, fretwork, or both.

[QRST4]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:48 AM, fortyearspickn said:

If' you've had this issue looked at by 3 other places, including a reputable shop .... I too would have less hope going to a GC tech.  BUT - you never know.  He might be very experienced and you might hit him when he's not busy and highly motivated to solve the puzzle three others couldn't!      I'm chiming in again because I remembered, after my first comment - I had a similar problem. on a 15 y/o SJ200.  Came out of nowhere and went away after I changed strings and tweaked the truss rod (as .   I'm sure that's been tried on your J45 already.  G'Luck ! 

I think this is pretty sound advice. At least, it's easier to drive the 45 minutes to GC before boxing the guitar up and shipping it to Montana.

[QRST4]

20 hours ago, J-50Jeff said:

I have a 2018 L-00 Standard that I purchased new in 2019. About a year ago, I started experiencing the same fret buzzing that you describe. The buzzing got worse when capoed at the 3rd fret or higher. I tried everything to fix it: new strings, adjust the truss rod, different gauge strings. replaced the original saddle (I installed abone saddle shortly after I purchased the guitar). Nothing worked.

Then I ran a 6" scale across the frets and found the 15th fret to be slightly high. I also thought that it was in the area where it didn't matter. This summer I took it to a luthier and he confirmed that the high fret was a problem. The actual fretboard was high in that area, so his recommendation was to pull the lower frets, level the fretboard and install new frets. I had him do the repair and the buzzing is gone.

Jeff

That's encouraging. I play an L-00 too, those are sweet guitars.

I think I'll investigate this further because one or more frets over the body on my j-45 are indeed high. Can't remember at the moment exactly which one. I've always been under the impression that since the action is so much higher at that end of the board, and I don't play those frets, that it didn't matter that much if one was a bit higher. I'd be happy to be wrong in this instance, because that would be an easy fix, all things considered.

[J-50Jeff]

2 hours ago, QRST4 said:

That's encouraging. I play an L-00 too, those are sweet guitars.

I think I'll investigate this further because one or more frets over the body on my j-45 are indeed high. Can't remember at the moment exactly which one. I've always been under the impression that since the action is so much higher at that end of the board, and I don't play those frets, that it didn't matter that much if one was a bit higher. I'd be happy to be wrong in this instance, because that would be an easy fix, all things considered.

Yes, the L-00 is a sweet guitar. I also have a J-50, which I love and it sounds great, but the L-00 is more comfortable to play due to my aging shoulders.

You may want to go BoSoxBiker's route first and just have the frets leveled. That may do the trick. If that doesn't work, you may need to have the frets pulled and the fretboard leveled too.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Jeff

[Dave F]

A few years ago I purchased a CS J200 from GC. It had the buzz. I had the in-house luthier check it before I bought it. It was a couple frets (around the 14th-17th position) that had popped up. He tapped them down and the issue went away.

[BoSoxBiker]

On 11/15/2023 at 6:13 AM, ksdaddy said:

Tighten the the truss rod a tiny bit. Shoot for 0.007” if you want a target. 

QRST4 - If your neck relief is still around .014", you might consider what ksdaddy suggested before  getting any fret work done. It sounds just as counter-intuitive as the 14th & higher frets making a difference, but it does have an effect on the strings' elliptical patterns as they are vibrate. 

In the very least, it might be better to have your neck relief set to a moderate amount (say .007" - .009") when you bring it in to the shop or ship it out. You're probably better off if the shop diagnose and make repairs with the neck relief in your favored position instead of running the chance of setting it after the fact and having something be off.