metalhed717 Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 okay, this may be a beginner question but ive only been playing for about two years now. when playing a solo, do you change what scale youre using depending on the key or the backing chords? im trying to "disect" a randy rhoads solo, you know find out the different scales and such, but should i look for a scale based on the key or on the chord being played? all help is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefoxicy Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Music theory question. Scale is based on key. You're following a chord structure in a scale, not a scale structure in a chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evol04gt Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 i hope i am saying this correctly==== but your chord progression will be in what ever the key the song is in already.... as long as you play the solo in that key, and respect the progression for your root notes, you will be fine.... most solos are written in pentonic scale or are based in it somehow.... personally, i dont play solos/// i have never written one and am really bad at disecting them... i know a bit about music theory, so i just refference everything back to my education..... and thats how i figure it out... or its what i use to justify not being a "good" guitar player and knowing leads... personally i think leads are stupid./... i preffer riffs and licks(yeah yeah same thing but leads keep going)... however, a blues solo is the best thing to my ears.... metal solos are just technique and ZERO breathing... good jub, you can play 40 scales and 60 hammer-ons in 20 seconds...it still sounded dumb.. lol....sorry for the rant... too much MONSTER energy drink while suffering with the flu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefoxicy Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I dunno man, Dragonforce does some interesting solos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evol04gt Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 when i reffer to solo, i tend to mean the stupid thing every lead guitar player does after the second chorus.... or during the 40 minute jam session after the bridge of a song.. lol... the guitar line that doestn really add to the song/// it just says/... yeah im the lead player.. time for me to show off...lol.... but on the same aspect-- i HATE robert plant because he ALWAYS had to sing over top of jimmy pages ground breaking playing.... the man could never shut up... robert-- get the net-- you are a singer.. your job is to sing or scream words... not down play a hard to write guitar riff with your god aweful voice.... a singer doesnt need to mimic an instrament....... but robert plant is a rich old raisin and i am a bitter pre thirties wash out musician with paradoxial opinions... anyways... stay in your key.... most things are written in major using 1/3/5/4/6 learn the pentatonic and blues version and you can fo most things...... and dont get bitter.. lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefoxicy Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Kiss sucked pretty hard and if you listen to Rock and Roll All Night and then play it on Guitar Hero 3 you'll get why. The song is all dull and lifeless.... but they added a solo in the GH3 version, and actually lead out instead of fading out like a bunch of hippies that don't really know where they're going with the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumblinman Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Wow, I really liked KISS when I was younger, they had some good licks (Not a Gene Simmons reference). They weren't the Beatles by any means, but their music was loud and easy to sing and jam to, as well as being great for drinking beer with buddies. Frehley wasn't great, but his playing was solid and did the job. I still listen to them now and then, but not like I used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefoxicy Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I can't see them touching Black Sabbath, and their music just sounds dull and directionless to me. Like they got something that sounded good, chugged with it for a while, then kind of forgot what they were doing with it and faded out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Wow' date=' I really liked KISS when I was younger, they had some good licks (Not a Gene Simmons reference). They weren't the Beatles by any means, but their music was loud and easy to sing and jam to, as well as being great for drinking beer with buddies. Frehley wasn't great, but his playing was solid and did the job. I still listen to them now and then, but not like I used to.[/quote'] You Dare to use "Kiss" and "The Beatles" in the same sentence??! Blasphemy....off with your head!! LOL! Kiss="Show" band (as Fun, as they might have been, to some folks) Beatles=well, there are no equals, IMHO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingfrets Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I liked Kiss before most people had ever heard of them (Kiss / Hotter Than Hell / Dressed to Kill). They blew chunks as soon as Destroyer made them a parody of themselves. Never wanted to hear them again till I heard "Domino" (yeah, it's totally sexist and basic retard-rock, but it kicked ***!). Frehley was nothing to write home about, but Kulick was highly underrated. As for solos, I never cared a whole lot about them. Yes, I can play them, but I'm more interested in crafting a song with a good "hook" than some blazing atonal kamikazee wail. If I use one at all anymore, I get in, get the job done and get out (always leave 'em wanting more...not wanting you to go away). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg3333 Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Usually a solo will use the key the song is in and the chord progressions are based on that key. Soloists will add color notes. However there are many different scales that you can use although most blues/rock uses minor and major pentatonic. Jazz musicians, on the other hand, mix in all kinds of scales and will often use a scale of whatever chord they happen to wander through. Not that I am any good at this, understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrma Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 i hope i am saying this correctly==== but your chord progression will be in what ever the key the song is in already.... as long as you play the solo in that key' date=' and respect the progression for your root notes, you will be fine.... most solos are written in pentonic scale or are based in it somehow.... [/quote'] Pretty much what I'd have said, except, a song isn't always in one key, often they change key throughout... (Often solo passages are in the dominant, and resolve into the tonic, ready for the shift up a semitone for the final verse! lol) As said, make sure your scale for the solo is based on the chord, but, doesn't have to be exclusively notes from that chord, however, you would expect a dissonance, or suspension to resolve. (Either by the change of chord, or the solo line) for a great example of resolving dissonance and suspensions, have a listen to this. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KBYLNbKoPP0 I can't think of any guitar solo's with this in at the moment, but i'll find some examples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 You Dare to use "Kiss" and "The Beatles" in the same sentence??! Blasphemy....off with your head!! He Dared to use "Kiss" and "guitarsolos" in the same sentence... ...just kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Ok, you've hit me where I live. The origin of the guitar solo (or any solo by any instrument) was a tired singer who needed to rest his or her vocal chords for a verse in each song. When you sing for four hours every night, you get hoarse, lose your voice, and your vocal instrument which is needed to make money to pay bills. So, singers asked for a "break" in the middle of the song to limit the amount of time they had to sing. That said, a well crafted solo enhances the song. That went away during the 90's for some reason. Someone decided soloing was "stupid" because they didn't understand the reason for a solo and didn't understand the theory behind it. If you don't believe what I'm saying, go to youtube and listen to Eric Clapton do the live version of "Wonderful Tonight". It'll bring tears to your eyes. If it doesn't, you don't get it...Ok maybe it isn't your type of music, but it's a great example of a good solo. A guitar solo is a combination of notes played in the a scale that complements the chords in the song. If the song is in C major, the notes in the vocal and the notes in the guitar solo should be notes found in the scale of C major. There can be variations, but they should be melodic. Modal variations are common. A mode is basically a scale played starting from a different note. There's too much modal theory to digress into here...google it. The solo should never step on the singer's vocal, but should enhance it and strengthen it. Riffs and fill notes should be played in between and in constructive harmony to the singer if they are played at the same time the singer is singing. Horn parts are a good example of this. A good sax man can make a singer sound stronger if the sax notes are played properly. Too many notes can kill the effectiveness of a solo. You can show off and play 32nd notes and ruin the possibilities. Slides and well placed bent notes with vibrato are generally good technique. A solo needs to have some dead air from time to time to accentuate the heavy passages. That's not to say that you can't perform a ripping 100% on time solo and bring down the house. (Chicago "25 or 6 to 4"). Soloing is both a learned skill and an in-born talent. We learn from what others have done and insert our own epiphanies into the mix. If you were lucky enough to be born in the 60's or 70's you heard it all first hand. It's in your head. The talent in soloing is to be able to sit down with a chord progression and build a solo that fits and sounds good. Some of that comes from things floating around in your head and the rest comes from inspiration. I'm not a songwriter because everything I write tends to end up sounding too much like something I've heard before. I'm good at crafting solos because I have the scales in my head and they overpower the tendency to just play something I have heard. Why, I don't know. They just come out without thinking...unconsciously from the feel of the song. I might solo in the style of someone from the past, but my solo will be much different, with the nuances that are reminiscent of that player. Play scales. Lay down some chord progressions and experiment with how the scales and their modes fit with the chords. Once you know the scales, the possibilities for soloing are in imaginary patterns on the neck. When I look at the neck, I see boxes, patterns, extensions, and such and their respective hammer points, pulloff opportunites, and slides. But then, I've been soloing since 1965. It comes naturally, mostly based on my being in a cover band for 20 years straight and the rest of the time spent jamming with other players. Soloing takes time to develop. There's a 16 year old guitar player who plays in the contemporary band at church with me who is technically superior to most players his age. He has been playing about 2 years. He can play all the Jimmy Page licks he learned from tabs but when he tries to do an improv solo he lacks the ability to insert feel, instantaneous invention, and mood in his playing. He's a great player, but just needs time and practice to be a creative soloist. He'll get there and he is improving. I can show him a lick and he picks it up immediately. One day, he will be the guy who everyone loves to sit and listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulsaslim Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 To add to what Dave said there are 'scales' and there are 'modes'. Typically in the 'rock-blues' type stuff most of us play you'll use the 'pentatonic' mode. For 'country' and 'folk' type stuff you'll use the 'major scale' (I think it's diatonic) mode (which is basically the do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do mode). I think in Western music there are 8 modes (don't quote me on that) but a typical bar band may never use more than those two. Typically on the guitar, for each mode, you'll have 5 different 'scale positions' up & down the neck until you go 'full-circle'- i.e. you've covered the entire tonal range and you'll be repeating one of the previous modes. (For instance, the 'scale' you play on frets 12-15 will be the same one you played on frets 0-3. In each 'position' you should be able to play the main accompanying chords (I-IV-V). I always had a miserable time trying to play solos 'note-for-note'. I had a helluva time memorizing them. So I would usually only play about the first 8 measures or the 'main lick' of a solo & jam away from there. In the 17 years I played professionally I doubt I ever played the same solo twice. But I feel totally comfortable playing just about anything that doesn't involve a bunch of modulation (key changes). For soloing first FIND THE KEY and then FIND THE MODE. Start by learning the pentatonic positions. Then learn the 'major' mode. You'll discover that the 'notes' will be essentially the same pattern you used in pentatonic but 3 frets down (the 'relative minor' syndrome) and you'll emphasize different notes in the pattern. Start with those two modes & you'll be able to play 90% of the songs you've ever wanted to. In time learn some of the other modes (Minor, Phrygian, etc) to spice things up a bit. You can spend a lifetime (as I have) practicing the different runs you can do in each position. Always know where the chords are in that position and you'll have the confidence to jam with just about anybody any time. This approach has worked for me for over 40 years and got me a lot of work (especially studio work) back in the day. Somebody told me a long time ago that 'a little theory goes a long way' and I'm living proof of that. Also, if you're contemplating solo stuff, BE SURE TO PRACTICE USING YOUR PINKIE! You're only screwing yourself if you decide you don't want to use 25% of the tools available to you- i.e. the fingers on your left hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdgails Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 here, color it like this kid..................http://youtube.com/watch?v=omRtGHHAJQ4&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Well put Dave and Tulsaslim.....I look at it this way.....it's all about musical vocabulary...the more you know the more you have to say. Nobody wants to hear the same 3 words over and over,just as nobody wants to listen to a PHD dissertation. When soloing becomes nothing more than guitar gymnastics it loses it's purpose. the best solo's IMO are those which are lyrical in nature and build on a theme.....and yes I agree Dave... E.C. was/is one of the best in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 G'day Dave, As someone sitting on the side I was blown away by your post. Very well thought out and lucid, Valuable to less experienced players like myself. Thanks for taking the time. Dig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwillow777 Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Very well put Dave, Tulsa and Layboomo. Not really much to add, but I'm glad you guys chimmed in. When I solo I try to think of it like telling a story. What I play needs to make a point and go somewhere. I think of some of the greats, Clapton, Santana, and the list could go on and on. Some of my favorite solos to either listen to or learn growing up were solos that I could sing. Sure there is a time for lighting fast runs, but the way I look at them is that they should be there to get to somewhere in the solo, a specific note or a phrase that will make a statement. Depending on how long the solo will be will determine some things as well. For a short solo I will probably stay in one position on the neck, with the extensions for that position. For a little longer solo, say twice as long, I will probably build it by moving my way up the neck and climax in a higher position. Don't make it too long. Know when to stop. Less is more. Also, when learning to solo, learn when NOT to play. Learn to play in the holes and don't try to throw out your latest, hottest licks when the vocalist is singing. Learning to solo is a life-long journey, enjoy the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evol04gt Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 dave said all i could ever want to say............ and also-- when not to play is more important than what TO play.... cant remember where i firsrt read that but its always stuck with me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEPI Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Very well put Dave' date=' Tulsa and Layboomo. Not really much to add, but I'm glad you guys chimmed in. When I solo I try to think of it like telling a story. What I play needs to make a point and go somewhere. I think of some of the greats, Clapton, Santana, and the list could go on and on. Some of my favorite solos to either listen to or learn growing up were solos that I could sing. Sure there is a time for lighting fast runs, but the way I look at them is that they should be there to get to somewhere in the solo, a specific note or a phrase that will make a statement. Depending on how long the solo will be will determine some things as well. For a short solo I will probably stay in one position on the neck, with the extensions for that position. For a little longer solo, say twice as long, I will probably build it by moving my way up the neck and climax in a higher position. Don't make it too long. Know when to stop. Less is more. Also, when learning to solo, learn when NOT to play. Learn to play in the holes and don't try to throw out your latest, hottest licks when the vocalist is singing. Learning to solo is a life-long journey, enjoy the ride.[/quote'] Time for me to get "mushy" again...Astute learning tools here along with the "mental/soul" approach.. I'm sure that many of us have overplaed when it was time to take a ride and find that you've "blown your wad" waaaay too fast and then try to rebuild from there and fall short? Less is more; you bet. Build your solo; you bet etc. Really good information for all players to learn from or to revisit the concept............J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 A good solo is a representation of a singer. Maybe not the same notes that the singer just sang in the last verse, but an enhancement that magnifies the words of the vocalist. If you can put feeling in your solo that extends the solo of the vocalist, you will capture the attention of the audience and create further emotion in the listener. We have all listened to a guitar solo that left us breathless and touched. Strive for that and you will attract many fans. Start slow, build the solo to an emotional pitch and rip away toward the end. Sometimes you can't put it all into a single 12 bar solo. So, extend it another 12 and make the last 12 scream. The Allman Brothers Band put it clearly when Duane said somethng to the effect of "Sometimes you can't say all you have to say in 12 bars and you have to go another 12 to get it all in. We always take double rides for that reason." Stick the "ABB at Fillmore East" in your car CD player and listen to it for a week. You'll get the idea. And, it will be applicable to any music that you play, including Rock, Country and maybe even Metal. Of course, I like the early metal players from back before the time where solos were tapped. Eddie Van Halen was able to tap melodically. I listen to G3 occasionally and have lots of respect for those guys, but really don't feel the need to play in that style. If a singer can't sing it, I usually don't play it in a lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvastogie Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 jcwillow777 wrote: Less is more. Also, when learning to solo, learn when NOT to play. That is something one of my teachers taught me. Sometimes it's more important about the notes you DON'T play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Of course this is very subjective,but I think one the most clever and tastiest solo's of all time is Larry Carlton's work on Kid Charlemagne by Steely Dan....now that's a guitar solo in my book.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEPI Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 Ditto.........J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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