carverman Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 For some reason' date=' I didn't bristle when I read this. Maybe I'm missing something. Are you not asking that posts revealing fakes be flagged as such (so that readers who aren't at risk for buying fakes can skip those posts)? It's sort of like typing OT in the subject line for Beatles threads.[/quote'] Jeffery; Ok first of all it's a public forum, so anything goes I guess..but what really got my goat was that an ILLEGAL COPY of a Gibson guitar was procurred, and then discussed on this forum as if..oh well, it's a piece of ...whatever but here's the scoop..etc While there is nothing in the current rules (other than the first rule that states not to engage in any activity that could be deemed unlawful, the way it was done was to discuss something in detail that shouldn't even be discussed in this kind of detail on this forum. Let explore the opposite vector..suppose this illegal copy was really good by some standard, and after the forum discussion, a reference was made to where they can be obtained...and more people that read this thread bought them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roswell Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 You're not breaking any laws by purchasing them, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 You mean like... "Warning! Coffee is Hot! Do not spill on lap!" "Warning! Operating electronic devices in the bathtub can cause serious injury or death!" "Warning! Plastic bags are not toys! Do not give to children as choking or death may result!" Are you one of those folks that really needs a warning label for everything? :) Uh, no. But seeing them doesn't piss me off. Live in California for a few years. There is a warning about everything. I guess some people feel that, without such a warning, they are liable for a lawsuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I think acceptance and tolerance enhances the community that is this forum. Excessive rules often stifle the free exchange of information in the name of order. I've seen forums where excessive rules and intervention virtually destroyed the forum and drove the best members away. Unfortunately, it seems that rules beget more rules, so I'd rather trust fellow members to use their best reason and judgement here. I might complain to the group about things that bother me but I'll never suggest a rule or intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 You mean like... "Warning! Coffee is Hot! Do not spill on lap!". ...snip!..etc..etc "Are you one of those folks that really needs a warning label for everything? Well obviously , not for every case, but there are some instances where a promotion can be perceived. psst!..want to buy a top of the line G*bs*n LP for $400? In a few years you can sell it for much more...:- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L1Picker Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 psst!..want to buy a top of the line G*bs*n LP for $400? In a few years you can sellit for much more...:- Yikes! Can you link to the thread where somebody said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 You're not breaking any laws by purchasing them' date=' you know.[/quote'] Perhaps not..until you try to resell it for what it isn't...... Besides, if people start to develop a distrust for brand name products, the prices will tumble because nobody is willing to pay those high prices anymore, because you can't be sure if it's genuine or not. Then people that currently own the genuine product, bought at much higher prices are not going to be happy...the whole guitar market could collapse..but maybe that's what the fakers are trying to achieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan 58 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I prefere to think of my 2000 epi V as a tribute not a fake. Stan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 You should know as well as I know' date=' the difference between the genuine and fake. [/quote']The reason I know the difference is because of threads on this, and other, forums highlighting the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippiedave Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 if you don't know that a 400$ gibson les paul is a fake then i've got a couple of bridges to sell WARNING: THE BRIDGES FOR SALE ARE FAKE & NOT A REAL GUITAR AT ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmidnight Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 We are getting new members everyday on this forum....and from what I have seen and read, a few have been unlucky enough not to know any better due to a lack of info to have gotten one of these fake guitars. If they had visited the forum 1st it may have saved some heart ache and being cheated out of thier hard earned money Carverman. SOOOO I would think these type of post would be a public service to this forum and new guitar owners that aren't as knowlegable as YOU are. As to your reply to my earlier post...seems you read into what you wanted. I may have been wrong in calling the guitars you made fakes....so for that I am sorry...maybe more accurate to call them knock offs or copies since you went to such troubles as to get factory spec's to build them as close to the originals as possible, but since those were built by you for your own personal use...it's ok isn't it? HMMMM sounds like what Big Norm did on the fake gibson...he was just getting it because he was interested in the differences and to be used by him. Not trying to fool/cheat anyone, but adding forum info on why not to buy these overseas fakes. Now go find your Prozac and take a chill pill...lol Capt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWANG Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Ok Twang' date=' here's my reply from my perspective on this subject. 1. You can buy whatever you like..it's your money! 2. You can be curious about what's on the marketplace and investigate. 3. You are NOT a traitor to ask a intelligent question on what's on the market. However, if you deliberately buy a guitar that is a known fake(counterfeit) from a source in China and that particular guitar has trademark violations written all over it...what does that make you? a) a private "investigator" that is willing to shell out $300 or more on a fake, (imported to North America not using the proper channels) but doing this as a public service to expose the fake and draw attention to it so that the proper authorities take over? :- Curious, but fully aware that it's a fake, but willing to try it out anyhow to (perhaps save a few bucks) see how it compares to others... and maybe resell it on the online auction sites (that (supposedly) frown on fakery) in the future or worse still sell it to some unsuspecting buyer as the real thing for a few hundred more than what you paid for it, because the serial number happens to be duplicated? c) buying guitars for fun direct from offshore places because it's easy to do it now on the internet and promoting them? If this is allowed to continue, what's it going to do to the public's perception of that that Gibson or Epiphone guitar that the band is using on TV? Someone once said, 'if you are not part of the solution to the problem, then you are part of the problem" [/quote'] It makes me a person who buys a guitar legally via the system my government regulates. I am not, nor is anyone else in here 'the decider', to borrow a term. If a person buys such an instrument, and are breaking no laws, then that's that. Period. What it means to Gibson/Epiphone is just as you say. An infringement caused by trade practices that are unfair, failure to copyright in the first place--which by the way is pretty understandable!, and loss of revenue and possibly reputation. However, your worst case scenario leaves quite a few things out. Such as the plethora of copys out there, the argument about location of manufacture, the number of years that guitar manufacturers have been making slightly different versions of other manufacturers guitars.. such as epiphone stratocaster and telecaster copys, to name but two. Not to mention the whole epi versions of gibsons situation. I understand your objections. I also understand the reality of the situation. And the depth of it,at least in part. But I've got NO beef with someone who buys a guitar, at all. The rules need changing. But not in here. Gibson/Epiphone, in my view really should be granted copyright to those things which they have in fact struggled to make iconic in the first place. Nobody should be able to call their guitar 'the paul' but gibson and les paul himself. Unless it's some guy named paul,of course! and that's my argument. the individual is not a bad guy. I never blame anyone for trading with their neighbor. If the trade laws are unfair to the business, that's between them and their lawyers. What 'trickles down' to us is the instruments themselves. And we should know as much as we can, and share as much as we can in hopes of bettering the business and making sure we are looking out for each other. We can't do that if we're muzzled. I'd go the opposite direction.. a permanent 'fakes copys' thread, sometimes called a sticky thread.. if you made one now out of all the posts about these guitars.. I think it would already CLEARLY show the dangers, risks, legal debate, etc., all favor EPIPHONE by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookelputz Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Don't worry about it guys. Epi isn't going to post a new rule when they won't even tell us what rules they use now! Argue about something you have a chance of influencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I think acceptance and tolerance enhances the community that is this forum. Excessiverules often stifle the free exchange of information in the name of order. <...> Exactly. I prefer to keep the fake posts "legal". I think they help both the newbies on the forum and Gib/Epi as well by teaching people how to avoid the fake. After all, if someone buys a fake Epi or Gibson and it is a totally lame guitar, that person might have a very poor and false opinion of Gibson/Epi. If a post doesn't interest me, I have the choice of ignoring it. In fact, I ignore more than I read. But the ones I do read have taught me things I never knew, and have given me the opportunity to make new on-line friends and discuss one of the things I like most in the world, music. That's my opinion anyway (FWIW). Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 if you don't know that a 400$ gibson les paul is a fake then i've got a couple of bridges to sell WARNING: THE BRIDGES FOR SALE ARE FAKE & NOT A REAL GUITAR AT ALL I'm not worried about that. I'm more worried about paying $2,000 for a Gibson Les Paul that's a fake. I think that THIS thread is what needed a warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roswell Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I think that THIS thread is what needed a warning.For what, large amounts of tightassery by the posting party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 :- As to your reply to my earlier post...seems you read into what you wanted. I may have been wrong in calling the guitars you made fakes....so for that I am sorry...maybe more accurate to call them knock offs or copies since you went to such troubles as to get factory spec's to build them as close to the originals as possible' date=' but since those were built by you for your own personal use...it's ok isn't it? HMMMM sounds like what Big Norm did on the fake gibson...he was just getting it because he was interested in the differences and to be used by him. Not trying to fool/cheat anyone, but adding forum info on why not to buy these overseas fakes.Now go find your Prozac and take a chill pill...lol Capt[/quote'] Ok, Cap'n. Bring it on! You can call my homemade guitars "knockoffs or "copies" since essentially that's what one of them is, but not the other which is a unique design and only the LP shape that's common. I really don't care what you think of them, because I'm the one playing them, and I regret now ever mentioning them on this forum since there seems to be a few "immature" individuals lurking out there. The difference between what I created and what the "illegal Chinese copy" is that I did it as 1) homage to Les Paul, Ted McCarty and the fine people at Gibson who designed and created that first LP and as a carving project that I really enjoyed since there was some design involved. There was NEVER any reference to "Gibson" or "Epiphone" on the headstock..instead they are called "the legacy" and "the tribute" to the aformentioned, because I have a lot of respect for the people of Gibson. The blueprint that I used was legally obtained from Stew-Mac, and I used it for neck thickness and bridge bushing reference measurements. As far as the rest of it, I did my own way because it has no glued neck tenon...it's my own inovation..'nuff said! Regardless of what you think of me, I will say that I never did a dis-service to Gibson or Epiphone by promoting an obvious fake even if it was for curiosity's sake.. Obviously, this forum has deteriorated quite a bit, since it's (new) inception back in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostindesert Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 If you don't like the contents of a post.......DON'T READ IT !!! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad1 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 For what' date=' large amounts of [b']tightassery[/b] by the posting party? Now that should be included in Webster! I like it. :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Obviously' date=' this forum has deteriorated quite a bit, since it's (new) inception back in January. [/quote']No it hasn't. The only decline I can see is that the moderators seem to enforce rules that they don't tell anyone about. If no one discusses fakes, no one will know that they exist. The only way anyone could have been confused by Norm's thread is if their web browser was set to blank out the word "fake" and they thought he was reviewing a real Gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted August 12, 2008 Author Share Posted August 12, 2008 If you don't like the contents of a post.......DON'T READ IT !!! Peter I generally don't, but this one got to me. As far as I'm concerned, if you guys want to buy and promote fakes, go ahead!.. it's your money to waste! But at least have a shred of respect for the fine people that gave you this venue to squawk, complain, trade insults, post stupid pics that have no reason to be on this forum, and other such juvenial matters. I think I've had enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I generally don't' date=' but this one got to me. As far as I'm concerned, if you guys want to buy and promote fakes, go ahead!.. it's your money to waste! But at least have a shred of respect for the fine people that gave you this venue to squawk, complain, trade insults, post stupid pics that have no reason to be on this forum, and other such juvenial matters. I think I've had enough.[/quote']The other thread was hardly promoting fakes. It was explaining how bad the guitar was. I've always been curious to see how these guitars felt, but I never wanted to use one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvyellow Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 It gets dull here without the "spot a fake" "what pick ups?" "Epiphone v.s. Gibson" "what's the wood like" and "how are those strings?" threads. I'm all for free speech, as long as it's Epiphone related :0) Anything that creates discussion here is good as far as I'm concerned. For me though, we haven't got enough "what are easy songs to learn?" threads and a few too many "what guitar player was the best?" threads...I just don't bother to open the hero worship threads :0) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippiedave Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I have been a guitar snob for 18 years, I wouldn't buy anything that didn't say gibson or fender on it! that being said when I got the dot or the dot studio I did like them (maybe even love )even though the electics are very very cheap! forums like this would suck if you edit for content,where does it end? maybe I should be band for this comment " no qc at the epi factorys" or fender or gibson or squire, just read reveiws and you will see that,now about the first post, he did us a service, and said don't buy,witch makes the psst comment void. now if he were on this forum selling that guitar as real then he would have a point "to ban " but this is a place to share our likes and dislikes and that is what he did, that is a far cry from " hay man have i got a deal for you " if you are going to spend 2$ or 20,000$ do your homework and you will be better off does anyone think it'll all go away if we close our eyes tie our hand an button our lips! by talking about it you ARE part of the solution! a warning how would that help on this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulsaslim Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Here's my take: We need to nuke the jerks making these fakes, not the threads telling people not to buy them. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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