PP_CS336 Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Interesting... I was just looking at some brand new Epis at the Sweetwater site. Here are a couple of 'back of headstocks' shots: Do you see what I see....? That is quite interesting. I have an '07 EE Epi Les Paul Standard and it had the "100% Inspected and Set-up in the USA by I#" on it. It seems like the '08 Models of any Epiphone Electric made at Qingdao have dropped the EE from the Serial #, as you point out, and they're no longer inspected or set-up in the USA. Then Epiphone Management (supposed to be Americans) are not watching as closely as they should. Then the QC instead of meaning Quality Controlled begins to stand for "Quite Crappy". LOL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 You're lucky to get that. I'm sure many new Epi owners in Australia are the first one to open the cardboard box containing the guitar since it left China! Ditto the rest of the world outside the US. Having said that I have to honest and say that the setup of my LP was, bar a sticky nut, as good as any of the fresh out of the box Gibson/Fender price bracket guitars in the shop and the fit and finish was definitely up there with the Gibsons. One particular area where the finish on the Gibson LP's seemed to be particularly bad was around the neck/body join where on nearly every one I looked at the was uneven lacquer or runs. Makes me feel that, if they can't be bothered to up the QC stakes on the high price Gibson stuff, there's very little chance of them doing so on the Epiphone lines. Perhaps they out to employ the guys who do the QC at the factory where they make the BC30 amps as they are VERY well put together and are certainly built to at least the same standards as a lot of high end makes (obviously not comparing PCB to hand wired but construction of cabinet etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well, QC across the board (with any product) "ain't what it used to be," or should be...IMHO. Some of that, is OUR fault, much as I hate to say that! We allow it to happen. Rationalize way too much BS, nowadays...again..IMHO. But it IS a difficult thing to reverse, when it's this pervasive. Not impossible, but will take a very determined and concerted effort, to do so. Plus, we're in such a "thow away" society, there seems to be little want (need?), for things to last, or be "upper crust," any more, when they'll be "history," in pretty short order. So...??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Is it just me, or do the tuners on that Dot look crooked? Throw all the guitars you want in the garbage. Around here, they wont last five minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canine Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 If this is about blame, well, look at the headstock. What says there? Epiphone, a Gibson company, so blame Gibson, it's their name and their responsibility. Period. Now, I do believe us customers have a lot to be blamed for as CB noted. I've seen people say hey, the guitar's got a couple scratches here and there but it's only 400 bucks.... Wow, wonder if you're gonna go to KFC and get the 1.99 special and say hey, it's got a cockroach in it, but it's the special meal.... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluezOldy Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 i honestly don't care too much about quality because i'm not YET in the market for a new guitar' date=' i just don't want products coming here from a communist country. [/quote'] China now owns so much US paper (bonds etc.) that when you buy Chinese you're probably buying US! :P If you want to know what Gibson/Gibson owners think of Epi owners just visit the Gibson forum; you'd think we had AIDS or leprosy or something. Fords aren't good. Toyotas and Hondas are good. I've owned 63 cars and motorcycles in the last 44 years and not once have I ever had to have a warranty repair on a Japanese car, but Fords, Jaguars, Range Rovers etc., I've often joked you need two - one to drive while the other one's in for repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Who should the quality really be blamed on? GIBSON USA Nope. Easy scapegoat but not deep enough. Who owns Gibson? You (stockholders) do. What do you want? Dividends and increases in share prices. Corporate Gibson is just your management team working to give you and its other shareholders what they want. Place blame where blame belongs -- GREED! Capitalism is greed - systemized. In order to function' date=' advantage must be taken of others less fortunate. In this scenario -- the budget consumer who is not willing to pay for better quality. Lovely system eh? Keeps all of us trapped by our own greedy desires. I'm mad as hell and I want out..., anyone else? Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well, I agree with the "Greed" thing. But, as I mentioned previously, we are contributors of our own trap, by buying less than stellar instruments, or any other products. Can't fault "Capitolism" for OUR being less than prudent, in our choices, or spending habits. Human nature, being what it is, one needs to be a lot more "picky," especially nowadays, seems to me. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Nope. Easy scapegoat but not deep enough. Who owns Gibson? You (stockholders) do. What do you want? Dividends and increases in share prices. Corporate Gibson is just your management team working to give you and its other shareholders what they want. Place blame where blame belongs -- GREED! Capitalism is greed - systemized. In order to function' date=' advantage must be taken of others less fortunate. In this scenario -- the budget consumer who is not willing to pay for better quality. Lovely system eh? Keeps all of us trapped by our own greedy desires. I'm mad as hell and I want out..., anyone else? Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Gibson isn't a publicly traded company. There is no common stock, so no share price or dividends. And we are not stockolders because we got guitars for our money. Shareholders give a company money with no guarantee they'll get anything back at all, though they hope they do. We're consumers, and consumers have the ultimate say in whether a company suceeds or not. Who is Gibson or Epiphone taking advantage of, anyway? Most of us have literally thousands of choices in guitars. We're not forced to buy an Epiphone, or any guitar for that matter. And no one who is truly "less fortunate" is worried about buying guitars, believe me. I understand the spirit of your post, but when we start talking about how the less fortunate are taken advantage of, I think we should pause and allow ourselves some perspective about what it really means to be less fortunate. Peace. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Profit is king in American business. The Customer is the final judge on quality, workmanship, and suitability for a given purpose. That said, corporate officers are extremely focused on customer complaints. If there are enough complaints about a product or a feature on a product, heads will roll and the problem will get fixed. I work for a multinational company that produces both a product and a service. Service on our product is performed by onsite Customer Service Engineers. We have an inroad into the customer's mindset as a result of the daily face time we experience while servicing the equpiment. I have hotline numbers for every product family and can talk directly with 2nd and 3rd level support while I am at the account if necessary. Most of the technical input that they get is from people like me. Problems are identified, solutions are developed, and fixes are disseminated through this network of employees working together. Many times a kit is developed that contains the parts necessary to rectify a field problem on those machines affected by the problem. Frequently, a mandatory retrofit is issued that is installed on every machine in a certain family of machines that all exhibit the problem. In extreme cases, the customer may get a replacement machine. In other case, a technical specialist is dispatched onsite to assist in resolving the problem. These machines vary in price from several thousand dollars to several hundred thousand dollars. No matter what the cost of the product, each customer can expect resolution. If a customer works their way to management over an issue, it is logged and tracked until the customer is satisfied. Quality control requires constant inspection, evaluation, development, and implementation to maintain QC at a high state. When guitars were bought in local music shops, the owners (franchisees) had the same contact through a salesperson who could communicate customer complaints to the design, engineering, and manufacturing department. Now that so many guitars are sold through mail order, we don't get that face time with the people in a one on one scenario. Mom and pop shops will send back guitars as soon as they are inspected upon arrival. I would imagine that the online warehouses simply stack them on the shelf to be sold. The Solution: COMPLAIN!! Call up the online dealer and voice your opinions and detail the problems. If enough people complain about the quality of the instrument, the problem will get fixed. I own 2 Epi LPs and a Gibson LP. One of those has tiny finish blemishes around the neck joint that someone mentioned earlier. They are minimal, but not exemplary of quality workmanship. Both the Epis needed fret leveling, which I did myself. Other than that, they are great guitars. To be fair, the action met specs, but I'm one of those who expects to be able to lower the strings to the low end of spec without buzz. If you aren't happy with your Epiphone, I would suggest voicing your opinion and communicate that you expect a remedy. They might replace the guitar or send you to an authorized dealer who has a service department. It's hard to find a dealer now because the cost of a franchise is out of the range of most mom and pop shops. The squeaky wheel gets the grease !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Gibson isn't a publicly traded company. There is no common stock' date=' so share price or dividends. And we are not stockolders because we got guitars for our money. Shareholders give a company money with no guarantee they'll get anything back at all, though they hope they do. We're consumers, and consumers have the ultimate say in whether a company suceeds or not. [/quote']Talk about picking knat sh*t from pepper. Gibson is certainly a private company. But, you completely missed the point. Big picture capitalism keeps ALL entities/peoples locked into its greed cycle. Profit is KING. Certainly if you can stay privately owned and be as large as Gibson, you can be amongst the Kings of Kings. Greed remains a principle that errodes your QC just the same – you need a bigger yacht and the wife needs more carats this year, right? The principles work the same for private owners (shareholder metaphorically fits the corporate model is all). Shareholders are also consumers is true. Consumers lose whatever miniscule control they had upon the event of societal over-population. When mom & pop needs your return business to survive they provide quality product/service. When there are millions of "scab" buyers waiting in line, your stepping aside and buying something else somewhere else doesn't even register as a blip on the screen. Consumer control is a dillusion. Complain and you'll be given a pat on the head if you are even acknowledged at all. Sound familiar? Red 333 it's not your fault. To paraphrase Don Henley -- you've grown accustomed to the smell and now you love that sh*t, they're workin' you -- brother. As for the less fortunate..., travel the world as I have and then you will know what that truly means. Mostly it means that capitalist GREED needs large pools of sub-human conditions so that everyone in your civilized country (& family) can have cell phones, video games, and whatever. Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 That is quite interesting. I have an '07 EE Epi Les Paul Standard and it had the "100% Inspected and Set-up in the USA by I#" on it. It seems like the '08 Models of any Epiphone Electric made at Qingdao [are] no longer inspected or set-up in the USA. It's a shame that Epi have basically stopped checking these instruments in the USA, when they receive them from China. My '07 G-400 has the 'set up and inspected' sticker, and it's a fine instrument. I'm very pleased I bought when I did. It seems that Epi hit a peak a while ago with the Elitist range and some superb offerings in the standard range. The trajectory has been downwards ever since... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheX Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I don't understand why Gibson would insist on a strict quality control. You buy an Epi and you're buying a Gibson' date=' but not really. It's like they tell you it's a Gibson so you buy with confidence, but when you have a problem they tell you it's just an Epiphone. The parts don't match, you can't even install a Gibson pickguard on an Epi, and everybody knows having one single standard for production is what most companies do to bring down costs. Overall, I can't prove this but I got an impression that some of this is done on purpose, you get the taste of a LP with the Epi, but if you want the "real one" then you better pay for a Gibson, that seems to be the message. There's little interest in actually producing a top quality instrument at an affordable price, but I must admit, Epiphone does a better job at just that than other companies. [/quote'] Wrong on a few different levels. Epiphone is owned by Gibson, not made by Gibson so your one part fits all gets thrown out the window. Gibson absolutely does not rely on Epi people upgrading to sell their instruments, most Epi owners buy them because they can't afford the Gibby. No where are you being told to buy Epi with confidence in Gibson. That's something you've assumed, and it's wrong. As far as Epi doing it better that's a bunch of bunk as well. The Samick and Peerless factories (and others) put out the same stuff for different brands. I've seen Ibanez Artcores that blew away Epi's of the same model. Even the Carlo Robelli Peerless made guitars are on par and sell for less. Agile's quality is above and beyond Epi for a better price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyGibson Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I just checked the back of my new Dot Deluxe I bought yesterday. It's an '08. Guitar Center must have taken the stickers off. I was going to see where it was inspected. It does have on the back a stamp that says, "Limited Edition - Custom Shop". The quality is outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 And all 3 have crooked tuners........... BUT, back on subject........ @ the shareholders meeting, the CEO is told, "You MUST increase our profits, or we'll find someone that will" He/She takes this to the meeting of plant managers, who are ALL told......... "each of you MUST increase product output, and reduce material and operating costs, or i'll find someone that will" The plant managers then call meetings of the dept. managers, who are all told......... "Your dept's. all have to tighten up, cut corners if you have to, we've GOT to increase our profits, or ELSE!" The dept managers then relay this info to the floor workers......... BUT whats NOT been told, is that the CEO, has been given a $2,500,000 anual raise, a new corporate jet, a new Escalade,and a $100,000 bonus for increasing profits. the Plant managers, all got a $70,000 raise,and a new Escalade, for increasing profits, plus a bonus of $50,000 The Dept. managers all got nice raises, decent company cars, and a small bonus, for increasing profits. THEN at the next shareholders meeting, the CEO has to try to explain why they've actually LOST profits this year, even though they're outsourcing for cheaper labor, using lower quality materials in the products, and have lowered the quality control ratio on that same product, so more of them make it to the sales floor. Then he's told that he MUST increase profits.......or......well, you know........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 And all 3 have crooked tuners...........BUT' date=' back on subject........ @ the shareholders meeting, the CEO is told, "You MUST increase our profits, or we'll find someone that will" He/She takes this to the meeting of plant managers, who are ALL told......... "each of you MUST increase product output, and reduce material and operating costs, or i'll find someone that will" The plant managers then call meetings of the dept. managers, who are all told......... "Your dept's. all have to tighten up, cut corners if you have to, we've GOT to increase our profits, or ELSE!" The dept managers then relay this info to the floor workers......... [/quote'] You also have to determine who a company views to be its customers. In terms of profits, the entity that buys the product directly from the company is the customer. If you sell direct through your own sales force, then the end user is the customer. If you sell to franchisees, then they are the customer. Now, what makes the company stand up and take a look at its operation is returns and allowances. In our case, the franchisee is the middleman; the company who buys the epi product and resells it to moms and pops and, in some cases, online retailers. If you complain to your dealer, then the dealer will, hopefully, make the product right through refund or replacement. The dealer will, if the return rate is high enough, complain vehemently to Epiphone that their customers are complaining about quality. There is an insulation layr between the company and its customers. We can't buy directly from Epiphone, nor can we complain and get results directly from them. We have to go back to the place where we purchased the product. Then, it is up to the dealer to return the instrument and complain or just put it back in stock and sell it to someone else. In the case of finish blemishes, I imagine it will go back on the rack and be re-sold to someone who isn't so picky. Thats why it is so important to buy where you can inspect and play the guitar. Then there's B stock sales where you expect tiny flaws in appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 it will go back on the rack and be re-sold to someone who isn't so picky. Thats why it is so important to buy where you can inspect and play the guitar. Then there's B stock sales where you expect tiny flaws in appearance. +1 ......you hit it squarely on the head. Anybody that purchases a guitar without thoroughly test driving and inspecting it 1st, is really just buying a "pig in a poke". If we all only bought "better" gear, then that would be what was in demand. Anytime I purchase a NEW guitar, i'm not shy in the least about spending 4-5 hours trying out every guitar a store has that is the type I want. And if that store doesn't have "the one" for me, there are other stores that just might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 +1 ......you hit it squarely on the head. Anybody that purchases a guitar without thoroughly test driving and inspecting it 1st' date=' is really just buying a "pig in a poke".[/quote'] True enough. But here, in Durham, NC, options are limited. There's one excellent local store (what the heck, I'll give him a plug: http://www.bluesmasterguitars.com ), one other fairly nice store nearby, an acoustic specialist, and after that you've got GC. The GC doesn't keep great stock IMO - and the guitars always look just so mauled and played to death. Thats's why I buy a lot of gear from Sweetwater. You can see what you are going to buy, it's nice and unplayed, and I trust them as a company. Rightly or wrongly, most new guitars are probably sold on-line / mail order these days. Perhaps Epi think that allows them to get away with poorer QC...After all, it's more of a pain to return a guitar from a mail order dealer than it is to just not buy it in the first place from a local store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarpBoy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 That is quite interesting. I have an '07 EE Epi Les Paul Standard and it had the "100% Inspected and Set-up in the USA by I#" on it. It seems like the '08 Models of any Epiphone Electric made at Qingdao have dropped the EE from the Serial #' date=' as you point out, and they're no longer inspected or set-up in the USA. Then Epiphone Management (supposed to be Americans) are not watching as closely as they should. Then the QC instead of meaning Quality Controlled begins to stand for "Quite Crappy". LOL!!![/quote'] It appears that Epiphone has removed the letter in the SN identifying the factory of origin. However it's not just the case for Chinese-made guitars. My '08 was made in Korea, but doesn't have an letter in the SN; just the 'made in Korea' sticker. Probably because they know their consumers are becoming "experts" on factories of origin. I am kind of amazed at this whole discussion, really, and how everyone is decrying Gibson's greed, etc. This is a business; the bottom line will drive their business decisions. It's that way with virtually any company, except perhaps a few, like the afore mentioned Rickenbacker. However on the day that they get bought by a larger, multinational, that will change too. The thing to remember is that almost universally, when we talk about guitar brands, it's exactly that, the brand, that is being sold. Epiphone, Gibson, Fender, Silvertone, Danelectro, Hagstrom, etc are all just names that have been sold over and over, changing hands and ownership over the years. The product sold today actually have nothing to do with the original company; the brand owners spend gazillions of marketing dollars trying to give the illusion of continuity, but it's just a name. They come up with VOS, NOS, "inspired by" models because they know that the market will buy them. Think of this whole "relic" thing; absolutely incredible, and a stroke of marketing genius. So my opinion is it's kind of a waste of time to gripe and complain and convince ourselves that "quality is going in the crapper!". Are today's guitars made differently, with less desirable woods, more poorly chromed parts, with less apparent time spent on QC than at other times? Absolutely. Will it always be this way? Probably not, although you may have to switch your brand preference. Markets respond to customer demand. So my suggestion is, rather than spending a lot of time upset about how Epiphone's quality is rapidly going down hill, how about setting aside this fixation with the name, and buy something you like? There are lot's of newer brands hungry for business and consequently spending more time on some of the things that we seem to think are important, like "quality tonewoods", and nicely dressed frets, etc. Your Epiphone Les Paul is only shaped and more or less built like a Gibson LP so people who like LP's but can't or won't spend the money on a US made one will buy. I think we guitar buyers are some of the most gullible, self-delusional consumers out there. We talk about tonewoods, and finishes, and jangle and crunch as if these are absolutes. I frankly think we're just parroting a bunch of marketing buzz phrases. There are multi thousand dollar guitars made of acrylic, for crying out loud, and nobody says that the tone sucks. I owned a Ric 330 until I sold it last year. I used to go on the Ric forums and was nauseous with all the talk about the jangle that only a Ric will give you. I can get the exact same jangle with any number of guitars built somewhat the same. We're a bunch of whiny marketing groupies, is what I think. Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I find myself shaking my head more at consumers than I do companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Yeah, I think companies will make what consumers buy, and to a minimum level, as to still be saleable. They will also make products for us to aspire to...covet. Where the "Greed" comes in, is how the product is priced, beyond the pale of any reason...just to up the ante, and prestige factor. It happens in all fields, not just guitar manufacturing. Cars, boats, Airplanes, watches, clothing, even Food! So, don't kid youself, about the Greed factor. It's alive and well, and always has been. But, there comes a point, for everyone...no matter how "well heeled" they might be, where "enough, is enough!" That point will vary, no doubt, but it's there. Just as the cynic says "everyone has their price," there's the everyone has their point of limits, too. Some of us here, have reached that point, already. And, can't buy into the myths, marketing and hype, any longer. That's all. Your point of OUR being gullible, self-delusional MAY be valid, to a point. But ALL consumers have that characteristic, to some degree. That's what marketing and the associated advertising is based on...what they count on, actually. Not what we have, or are...but what we want, and aspire to be. So, I don't think guitar buyers are any more gullible, or self-delusional than any other consumer, across the board. In certain instances, sure...but, other's will be quite astute and thoughtful, in their purchasing. But, ultimately, it IS up to us, to complain and keep the companies that make our goods, on the up and up. If we don't, we have no one to blame, but ourselves. Anyway..."Rants" can be fun, too. As anyone that's been on this forum, for any length of time can tell you, I indulge in short "Rants," myself from time to time. Nowadays, there is a lot to "rant" about...IMHO. But, there's a lot to still be thankful for, as well. As is human nature, we'll indulge in both, no doubt. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLesPaul2006 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 No it is the consumers fault. If we would not buy guitars that are below the standard then Epiphone would be forced to update their quality control. So really the fault lies with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 No it is the consumers fault. If we would not buy guitars that are below the standard then Epiphone would be forced to update their quality control. So really the fault lies with us. There seems to be a growing consensus of the responders here that buying a Chinese-made Epiphone will require that the buyer actually handle and examine the guitar first. To my way of thinking, that will seriously bite into sales. There is only one guitar store in the New Orleans area with much of an Epiphone inventory (GC). I have never bought a guitar from them because it would always mean having to buy the floor model (buckle rash, dents, and all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I think we guitar buyers are some of the most gullible' date=' self-delusional consumers out there. We talk about tonewoods, and finishes, and jangle and crunch as if these are absolutes. I frankly think we're just parrotting a bunch of marketing buzz phrases. There are multi thousand dollar guitars made of acrylic, for crying out loud, and nobody says that the tone sucks. I owned a Ric 330 until I sold it last year. I used to go on the Ric forums and was nausious with all the talk about the jangle that only a Ric will give you. I can get the exact same jangle with any number of guitars built somewhat the same. We're a bunch of whiny marketing groupies, is what I think.[/quote']Bravo!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluezOldy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I think we guitar buyers are some of the most gullible' date=' self-delusional consumers out there. We talk about tonewoods, and finishes, and jangle and crunch as if these are absolutes. I frankly think we're just parrotting a bunch of marketing buzz phrases. There are multi thousand dollar guitars made of acrylic, for crying out loud, and nobody says that the tone sucks. I owned a Ric 330 until I sold it last year. I used to go on the Ric forums and was nausious with all the talk about the jangle that only a Ric will give you. I can get the exact same jangle with any number of guitars built somewhat the same. We're a bunch of whiny marketing groupies, is what I think. [/quote'] Bravo!!!! =D> =D> =D> =D> Probably one of the most honest and true assessments I've read on a guitar forum. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I don't know about this whole thread in general.... I like to keep it simple you see a guitar, you play it........ you like it, you buy it..... You don't like it, find one you'll like. Buy a used guitar on EBAY or new through the internet, better keep your fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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