Lets see if this creates as much angst as it did with my band

[Enmitygauged]

ok so in my band there are 3 types of people.

 

1. The Theory Boys ( who know everything about scales and can read music from a thousand yards away)

2. The Trained ( The Boys who have had upteen lessons and perfected their talents but cant read music or understand scales.

3. The Self taught by ear dude (the guys who writes the music most to the lyrics and generally cant read music for the life of Him)

 

Ok so the Bass player who is a slightly arrogant *** mentioned that he thinks there are three types of people in the band.

1. the Musicians

2. The Paint by numbers players/ Guitarist and Drummer

3. The ear and songwriter.

 

Now the Guitarist who BTW is as good as good gets took offence (rightly so) at not being called a musician. The bass player responded with well you cant read music or understand scales and most of what you learn is via TAB or by paint by numbers thats not a musician.

 

The Problem I have as I stood up for the Guitarist and drummer is that although the Bass and Vox are trained Music Teachers and brilliant in what they do. If they tried for 365 days they couldnt write a song to save themselves.

 

So the million dollar question what do you guys define as a musician?

[dem00n]

They make music...no?

So they are a musician.

If you paint for a living or for a hobby then you can be consider a painter, makes no sense no?

[Enmitygauged]

They make music...no?

So they are a musician.

If you paint for a living or for a hobby then you can be consider a painter, makes no sense no?

 

My 9 yr old son can play smoke on the water doesnt make him a musician it means Ive taught him to place his fingers on a fret board and move it around whilst picking

[dem00n]

My 9 yr old son can play smoke on the water doesnt make him a musician it means Ive taught him to place his fingers on a fret board and move it around whilst picking

Yes but he can create music, who says he isnt musician? He might not be a good one but he is still one.

[damian]

Ah man...................A musician is a musician..................

 

Now, of course, some musicians CALL themselves musicians even though they are not....

 

Some musicians who are great don't like being called musicians.......

 

I'm a musician, and a rock and roller..........

 

Hmmm, IMHO, all the members in your band ARE musicians......And if they are as good as you as a solo artist,

 

you guys must be great.........If I were you, I'd spend weeks quietly busting the bassist's and singer's b*lls demanding

 

that they write a song......and to write it in full musical notation.....I would then go through it with a pencil and point out

 

ALL OF THE ERRORS.........THEN, I'd remind them that ONLY MUSICIANS CAN WRITE SONGS........

 

( I've actually done this, by the way.....)

 

I would also show up at band practice with a black T-shirt saying......" Only Musicians Write Songs "..............

[Enmitygauged]

Yes but he can create music, who says he isnt musician? He might not be a good one but he is still one.

 

as much as I hate to say it ( the bass player might be right) on the case of my son as harsh as it sounds hes not a musician. He can create a tune he has learnt if he tries to deviate from said tune he will not be able to make music just a jumble of noise. Personally now thinking about it I put a true Musician as someone who makes their own music be it with one instrument or many. Painting by numbers is not painting in the scale of an artist although you maybe be replicating Art. Yes your actual action is painting but in my sons regard he is playing guitar. As in one guitarist we tried out could play every song metallica ever released Bullet for my valentine and even some Eric Johnson but when we asked him to play along with a 4 chord progression he fell apart.

[Enmitygauged]

Ah man...................A musician is a musician..................

 

Now, of course, some musicians CALL themselves musicians even though they are not....

 

Some musicians who are great don't like being called musicians.......

 

I'm a musician, and a rock and roller..........

 

Hmmm, IMHO, all the members in your band ARE musicians......And if they are as good as you as a solo artist,

 

you guys must be great.........If I were you, I'd spend weeks quietly busting the bassist's and singer's b*lls demanding

 

that they write a song......and to write it in full musical notation.....I would then go through it with a pencil and point out

 

ALL OF THE ERRORS.........THEN, I'd remind them that ONLY MUSICIANS CAN WRITE SONGS........

 

( I've actually done this, by the way.....)

 

I would also show up at band practice with a black T-shirt saying......" Only Musicians Write Songs "..............

 

 

Ha ha the only problem is that I am the By ear guy never had a lesson and just have the ability to make crap up lol

[Andy R]

ok so in my band there are 3 types of people.

 

1. The Theory Boys ( who know everything about scales and can read music from a thousand yards away)

2. The Trained ( The Boys who have had upteen lessons and perfected their talents but cant read music or understand scales.

3. The Self taught by ear dude (the guys who writes the music most to the lyrics and generally cant read music for the life of Him)

 

Ok so the Bass player who is a slightly arrogant *** mentioned that he thinks there are three types of people in the band.

1. the Musicians

2. The Paint by numbers players/ Guitarist and Drummer

3. The ear and songwriter.

 

Now the Guitarist who BTW is as good as good gets took offence (rightly so) at not being called a musician. The bass player responded with well you cant read music or understand scales and most of what you learn is via TAB or by paint by numbers thats not a musician.

 

The Problem I have as I stood up for the Guitarist and drummer is that although the Bass and Vox are trained Music Teachers and brilliant in what they do. If they tried for 365 days they couldnt write a song to save themselves.

 

So the million dollar question what do you guys define as a musician?

 

Ask the bass player what's the difference if you paint by numbers or paint by letters? Then tip him for the pizza and tell him to get off your porch....

 

My opinion is a musician is anyone who is passionate about music and creating it. Regardless of skill level or the methodology. If you have to understand scales and how to read music to be a "musician" then There must have not been any musicians around before theory was created and refined. So given this logic.... theory was created by non-musicians ( This might be partly true as i am unsure weather Pythagoras was a "player".... )

[dem00n]

This is going to be a long one.

[Andy R]

as much as I hate to say it ( the bass player might be right) on the case of my son as harsh as it sounds hes not a musician. He can create a tune he has learnt if he tries to deviate from said tune he will not be able to make music just a jumble of noise. Personally now thinking about it I put a true Musician as someone who makes their own music be it with one instrument or many. Painting by numbers is not painting in the scale of an artist although you maybe be replicating Art. Yes your actual action is painting but in my sons regard he is playing guitar. I think it then becomes relevant to your skill. As in one guitarist we tried out could play every song metallica ever released Bullet for my valentine and even some Eric Johnson but when we asked him to play along with a 4 chord progression he fell apart. To me hes not a musician he's a guitarist who learnt of tabs or by being shown.

 

Uh... Well he is 9 for one thing and everyone has to start somewhere and in fact I started exactly the same way he did. Does he try, does he want to do it? Does he love music and trying to make music? Then he is a musician.... Just starting....

[Enmitygauged]

Uh... Well he is 9 for one thing and everyone has to start somewhere and in fact I started exactly the same way he did. Does he try, does he want to do it? Does he love music and trying to make music? Then he is a musician.... Just starting....

 

nope sadly he doesnt try he get frustrated really easily. As much as I have done my best to shield him from expectation ( as I have none, if he wants to play he plays if not then good for him ) Its him living in his brothers shadow that frustrates him. His brother has a hand of midas ( I so wasnt gifted ) But Erik picks up a ball he will be able to play the game give him a soccerball he will be the lead scorer give him a guitar he is playing a full song in twenty minutes put him infront of a piano and hes making up stuff he might not know what hes doing but hes making music. He has natural ability unfortunately with a Five year age difference the Youngest struggles to keep up. We had to cancel guitar lessons for My youngest as he wouldnt learn anything except girls like guitarists so he would bring his guitar to school every day and play the same song lol. he never just picks up his guitars and plays unless people come around and then he'll break up the same song he has been playing for 3 years. :(

[L5Larry]

A musician is someone who plays one or more musical instruments with proficiency.

[Enmitygauged]

A musician is someone who plays one or more musical instruments with proficiency.

 

Ah but what if you could play four chords made a song worked out a kick drum beat and went MMMMMMMM in different pitches vocally over the top. you would be making music.You're not proficient as you only know four chords. Check out the best version of this below

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I

[BigKahune]

.

The chicken came first.

[This_Dying_Soul]

I would have to say that a musician is someone who can take one or more instruments and make music from them. Even if they are not what one would call "accomplished" they are still musicians because there are varying degrees of musicianship.

 

saying that someone does not qualify as a musician because they don't know theory or don't write their own music would rule out a lot of people... Les Paul admitted he could not read music, but yet he managed to hold his own and even out-perform many who had learned their theory. Also, look at Clapton and The Stones and all the rock legends over the years who could not read music and knew little or nothing of scales but had a knack for knowing what sounds good. How about all those people in the orchestras that spend their career playing other peoples music and are basically expected to replicate what is placed in front of them?

 

That's a lot of people that could be ruled out as musicians that either don't write music or cannot read music who make music for their livelyhood. It's also unfair to say that someone who doesn't make money is not a musician since there are many who are as good as or better musicians than the pro's who either haven't been discovered or have no interest in playing professionally.

 

Even the kid who has spent the last 3 years doing nothing but playing the riff to Smoke On The Water is a musician... just not a very good one.

[bonzoboy]

I guess by your bass players criteria for being a musician then he doesn't consider Lennon/McCartney,Harrison,Jimi Hendrix,Pete Townshend,Harry Neilsson,Phil Collins,Jeff Lyynne,Bob Dylan and a host of other recording artists as musicians.I've been playing and gigging since I was 15 years old-57 now-and have made very,very good money at it. Thank God a lot of people who have hired me and bands that have asked me to join consider me a musician even though I write my own music yet can't read a note of it.Being able to read music doesn't realy make one a musician.I have seen people who can read music yet would be lost if they had toplay something by ear or improvise apiece of music, they wouldn't function without a sheet in front of them.As far as I'm concerned they hardly qualify as musicians.

It takes many things to be a musician but the main thing isn't something tangible but it is something that comes from deep inside you that stirs you and compells you to play.

[damian]

This is going to be a long one.

 

Um, a whole note, a quarter note, or, ah, NEVERMIND.......Oh, Nirvana, oh, nevermind.... [flapper] .....

[Enmitygauged]

I guess by your bass players criteria for being a musician then he doesn't consider Lennon/McCartney,Harrison,Jimi Hendrix,Pete Townshend,Harry Neilsson,Phil Collins,Jeff Lyynne,Bob Dylan and a host of other recording artists as musicians.I've been playing and gigging since I was 15 years old-57 now-and have made very,very good money at it. Thank God a lot of people who have hired me and bands that have asked me to join consider me a musician even though I write my own music yet can't read a note of it.Being able to read music doesn't realy make one a musician.I have seen people who can read music yet would be lost if they had toplay something by ear or improvise apiece of music, they wouldn't function without a sheet in front of them.As far as I'm concerned they hardly qualify as musicians.

It takes many things to be a musician but the main thing isn't something tangible but it is something that comes from deep inside you that stirs you and compells you to play.

 

You hit the nail on the head. All those people were musicians because they wrote music artists because it was considered by their peers and the general audience of their time and future to be great. The issue is like you mentioned the bass player can make up a basic melody to follow the singers but he cant improvise beyond that and he had the Gaul to say Myself and the Guitarist werent musicians per say because we cant read music. Yet the lead guitarist IMHO is as good if not better than Santana or most famous players for that matter. He can write his own songs with all the parts played by himself Drums Bass keys he struggles with Lyrics but thats not a big issue in my mind. I know right now if I called him and said I had an idea based around this......Chord progression he would come back to me in a day with an MP3 fully recorded with every part worked out. we might refine it based on the vocals but he can do it. The bass player would take it away work on it for three weeks and come back with a good if not excellent Bass line but no way would he look at Keys or Guitar for that matter.

 

I was kind of peeved at the notion that to be classed as a musician you had to understand all the scales implicitly.

[This_Dying_Soul]

Yet the lead guitarist IMHO is as good if not better than Santana or most famous players for that matter.

 

If I recall correctly Santana would be another one that does not read music and is not a walking scale/chord dictionary. he just has a knack for knowing what sounds good and goes with it.

[pippy]

All three types can be called musicians, in my opinion, if they are skilled in their own fashion.

 

If you paint for a living or for a hobby then you can be consider a painter, makes no sense no?

 

Continuing with this analogy...

 

I think the important distinction is between that of a painter and an artist.

 

Give anyone a brush, a canvas and a pot of paint and they will be able to make marks and they can call themselves a 'Painter'. Being an 'Artist' is something else entirely.

 

Similarly with music. Theory helps a lot; study helps a lot; but without that intangible something....

 

P.

[damian]

Ha ha the only problem is that I am the By ear guy never had a lesson and just have the ability to make crap up lol

 

 

 

.............. [lol] ......But, ....hold on...... ........

[cookieman15061]

ok so in my band there are 3 types of people.

 

1. The Theory Boys ( who know everything about scales and can read music from a thousand yards away)

2. The Trained ( The Boys who have had upteen lessons and perfected their talents but cant read music or understand scales.

3. The Self taught by ear dude (the guys who writes the music most to the lyrics and generally cant read music for the life of Him)

 

Ok so the Bass player who is a slightly arrogant *** mentioned that he thinks there are three types of people in the band.

1. the Musicians

2. The Paint by numbers players/ Guitarist and Drummer

3. The ear and songwriter.

 

Now the Guitarist who BTW is as good as good gets took offence (rightly so) at not being called a musician. The bass player responded with well you cant read music or understand scales and most of what you learn is via TAB or by paint by numbers thats not a musician.

 

The Problem I have as I stood up for the Guitarist and drummer is that although the Bass and Vox are trained Music Teachers and brilliant in what they do. If they tried for 365 days they couldnt write a song to save themselves.

 

So the million dollar question what do you guys define as a musician?

If this is really a discussion you guys are having then the answer is none of the above.

[ShredAstaire]

because it was considered by their peers and the general audience of their time and future to be great.

 

Not sure if I understood that correctly....so...if you call someone a great musician, its redundant? Only someone who writes and plays "great" songs is a musician? That don't make no sense to me.

[ChanMan]

/Whew!

 

Thank GOD we have a book called the dictionary that defines words... like "musician"

 

 

 

mu·si·cian

  [myoo-zish-uhn] –noun 1. a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music.

2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

 

Origin:

1350–1400; Middle English musicien < Middle French. See music, -ian

 

 

So... there were no musicians prior to 1350, and personally, I tend toward definition 2, and consider definition 1 to be more accurately a professional musician.

[stein]

From WEBSTER'S:

 

musician

:a composer, conductor, or performer of music; especially: instrumentalist.

 

or :a person who writes, sings, or plays music, and especially as a profession (from WEBSTER'S FOR KIDS)

 

I am curious where your bass player and vox teach. When I attended some classes in college, EAR TRAINING was an essential class. Also, if someone is highly educated or advanced in their knowledge, they would know about many forms of music and history involving music and be aware of composers who could not play, be aware of forms of music that were created from different regions of the world, and even a knowledge of the abilities of influential and well known musicians who were important and could not read or write music.

 

Just as an example, someone advanced in their education to know appalation music, bluegrass, blues or jazz, or folk could whip out a song in a minute just by knowing how it is structured or made, following the chord progressions and rhythms that make up the music.

 

Or, take a classical instrumentalist who can play in an orchestra and can execute a written piece of music, and can PLAY amazing pieces with great precision and skill. MANY of these can not improvise to save their life.

 

In almost every case, I find musicians have a bond. There are many times in the past where I would play a lick or something with a great classical musician and they go "that is amazing! how do you do that?! You can improvise!" And at the same time, I see how they can play a piece I can't even PLAY, and do it PERFECT and the same every time and I go, "that is amazing! how are you able to read something so hard and just play it?!?!"

 

But I'll say this: a musician who is successful or accomplished knows something about COLLABORATION and are usually professional in their demeanor and encouraging to those they are working with. I doubt you would hear anything like a put down or a diminishing statement about skills and abilities from someone who is a seasoned player.