bluzhammer Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 FWIW, my sources tell me today is the court date for Gibson , with a continuance day, if needed on Friday. Good luck Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Hopefully common sense will prevail. Who am I kidding?... P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Hopefully common sense will prevail. Who am I kidding?... P. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Hopefully common sense will prevail. We'll see. I've been in Federal Court before and it can be intimidating. Who am I kidding?... P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I can't find anything online about it except the article on the Gibby site from NOV 26. I hope it is still happening. I don't know what will be involved or what Gibson will be able to ask for. There is the return of the wood, then there is the charges against Gibson, harassment, etc. I think the best we can hope for, is the judge will be forced to rule according to the law, and the Gov. will be FORCED to give Gibson a real court case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 . Thanks for the heads up Bluz. I'm very curious as to the out come of this case. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinner 13 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 My Link This is the only press snippet I could find, very brief and no real details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57classic Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 As mentioned by others here its suspicious that no other manufactures have problems with fretboards or filling out paperwork, common sense would dictate someone got caught with their hands in the cookie jar too many times.... Although I will hold all my comments until after the finding of the court case. Common sense should have allowed them to have their day in court loooong before this, and without so much attention having to be brought about to get that day. More curious than anything to me is how bought and paid for goods can be confiscated by the government, without the necessary documentation already in place at that time to bring charges, and let the accused twist in the wind for over 2 years I'm not trying to start anything with you but it might be better to hold judgement until after the court findings. I'm so cynical these days that I think I want to reserve my own judgement until after I see the evidence the government presents. Either way, we'll have to live with the court findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 Postponement until January, that's the word I just recieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluzhammer Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 That sucks, any idea who actually filed to have the date pushed back. Its been two years already it not like either party hasn't had enough time... I'm not sure, my "source" is a good friend and a company rep for gibson and he's in Nashville now. That being said, he relayed the info to me via text and really didn't elaborate. Sorry, wish I knew more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 With all due respect to both sides of this issue, it may just as likely be an attorney, on either side, who'd prefer to have a long holiday vacation or whose Christmas part came early. Neither side, of course, would admit such stuff to anyone... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 either way - I think it's horrible that things have taken this long for Gibson to get it's day in court. If they are actually guilty of anything they should have been charged long ago. While my opinion may not make much difference to the legal system, It's my opinion that the judge should order the feds either to press charges are give Gibson back everything that was confiscated and leave them be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57classic Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 either way - I think it's horrible that things have taken this long for Gibson to get it's day in court. If they are actually guilty of anything they should have been charged long ago. While my opinion may not make much difference to the legal system, It's my opinion that the judge should order the feds either to press charges are give Gibson back everything that was confiscated and leave them be. Hear, hear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Like I said before, these guys don't go after you unless they know they got you by the short hairs. Gibson had options and they chose to do business right at the edge of the law. You have options, you make choices, and there are consequences. Just like for the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
57classic Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 It may, in the end, turn out that all of you who have levied a guilty verdict against Gibson before they've had their day(s) in court are right. It may also turn out that you are wrong. To have to wait, and yes, publicize the situation just to get a little movement through the courts is unacceptable. How many of you would just sit for over two years after something you've paid for had been confiscated and say nothing. Add to that more material being confiscated and your reputation dragged through the mud, again. The same things happen to individuals as well as companies. Nobody in this country should have to endure the type of heavy handed tactics that the government is using on Gibson. I don't know if Gibson is guilty or not. It would seem that if they are guilty, they wouldn't be trying so hard to have their cases heard, drawing more attention to themselves. If I were to ever find myself in a similar situation I sure wouldn't want you guys on my jury. Innocent until proven guilty is supposed to mean something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 It may, in the end, turn out that all of you who have levied a guilty verdict against Gibson before they've had their day(s) in court are right. It may also turn out that you are wrong. To have to wait, and yes, publicize the situation just to get a little movement through the courts is unacceptable. How many of you would just sit for over two years after something you've paid for had been confiscated and say nothing. Add to that more material being confiscated and your reputation dragged through the mud, again. The same things happen to individuals as well as companies. Nobody in this country should have to endure the type of heavy handed tactics that the government is using on Gibson. I don't know if Gibson is guilty or not. It would seem that if they are guilty, they wouldn't be trying so hard to have their cases heard, drawing more attention to themselves. If I were to ever find myself in a similar situation I sure wouldn't want you guys on my jury. Innocent until proven guilty is supposed to mean something. Just remember..... many legal cases are NOT decided based on the law. You'll recall that during the 2008 election, some "New Black Panthers" were standing out in front of a polling place with weapons intimidating prospective voters. The Bush Justice Department gained a conviction of the guy, but the Obama Justice Department threw out the entire case....didn't matter that there was video proof, or that there was an actual conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar dog Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Funny, I thought we had a United States Justice Department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinTheHood Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Like I said before, these guys don't go after you unless they know they got you by the short hairs. Unfortunately, you are right about that. The Feds dont bother with charging you unless their case is virtually airtight. Otherwise, they probably would have dropped it by now. Anyone know how Epiphone or any other Gibson-owned brands are affected by this? Is this just an issue with Gibson branded guitars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 The problem with the courts is not so simple as one might think. A lot has to do with the very concept of the English-based adversarial court system. In criminal, law states that "the state" is a stakeholder of the illegal action of an individual and/or corporate entity whether the illegal action directly affects a victim as in an assault, or if it is contrary to various regulations promulgated for one reason or another. The problem is that governments and government prosecutors, at the local, state or national level, set their own priorities. More often than not, that government does not wish to have certain statutes enforced and prosecuted for reasons ranging from financing to politics. A relatively current local example may be whether a village wants drivers prosecuted for illegal U turns on a nearly deserted downtown street for someone stopping to buy groceries at the local store. That latter is, in ways, more fun to watch and talk about than big national issues. My questions - and I've not gotten answers from at least one friend who may well know - are along the lines also of "why Gibson." So far as I can tell, there's little or no inspection of thousands of imported guitars that well could have patently illegally-harvested woods - if inspectors could trace the backtrail. What might be revealed by the government's possession of woods for their case more than the harassment their actions brought to damage Gibson's business? I dunno. But I can also tell you this: Exactly what comes out in court may or may not approximate what actually is going on behind the scenes. As for comments that if the feds come after you, they've got you "dead bang," consider this: I ain't no cop, but I guarantee I could follow almost anyone for a day and at minimum find enough to put them in jail for 30 days if I were familiar with local and state statutes and if the prosecutor and court in a given community allowed regular prosecution of the violations I document. The difference is that many laws in many jurisdictions aren't pressed to the point of "is the 'i' dotted," and custom has brought a different interpretation of law than a new prosecutor might determine is the correct one. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Funny, I thought we had a United States Justice Department. It's now called the "Just Us Department". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I dunno... Nashville and Texas historically have been about folks reinventing themselves. Heck, Gibson has been reinvented more than a few times - sometimes to the benefit of the brand. What does seem most odd to me is the raid on the Tennessee plants but not the Montana plant. HenryJ is not the kinda guy who's going to get too much support from "the left" in a political sense nor from a lotta the blue-collar right for much of the same reasons - he's not a personally "sympathetic" character nor is he imaged as "attractive" in the sense of a business or political leader. He probably doesn't have the ego to care enough to play that game if he doesn't figure it's appropriate. It's a difficult position for someone to be in when they fit but they don't. Remember how the fact his own home and some irreplaceable guitars were damaged in the flood but didn't make a deal of it? His job was to lead rebuilding and ... loss of guitars isn't like losing a factory and a corporate family - even one that may or may not identify well with him. OTOH, one might make a case that he is not bad at all as a protagonist in a classical tragedy as written both in antiquity and in the Shakespearian era. He's the guy who has done heroic things but somehow is behind the eight ball as the tale unfolds. Heck, he plays a Les Paul and rides a Harley. He's unquestionably bright, he led a defunct Gibson back to life and hired a lot of folks to expand the biz. Sheesh, a bright Harley guy who's a fellow picker and hired a lotta blue collar guys? Great copy. OTOH, he reportedly isn't necessarily gentle with those who don't play the game his way. He also apparently made little effort to appear "human" according to current standards of PR image making. I've a hunch that those two points are, at the bottom line, the "flaw" in the tale as might be written by a Sophocles or Shakespeare. A prior PR setup probably could have worked. By the time the Firebird X rollout came, I think it was too late. I remember also a vid somebody put up of him playing on stage, introduced with some longtime rockers but yet doing so in the shadows. A different personality would have at least been more in the stage lights with a smile even without great guitar skills. So whatever this current lawsuit might bring, my personal opinion is that Gibson isn't making PR "work" at the corporate "business" level regardless that they do quite well at the long-term product image level. I know I've been shocked at anti-Gibson workmanship and corporate support policies I've read here. I've also been shocked in ways that some of it was "printed." Frankly I have a hunch that HenryJ is more one of "us" than "we" might believe. At my age arthritis is a more immediate concern than money bags; enjoying whatever I do more important than what I have. It's a place we all come to early or late. <sigh> Damage control never is the ideal position for PR folks. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I've been on the side lines of court cases that seem to get continued ad infinitum (how's that for lawyer speak). Usually, actually, almost invariably it has to do with lawyers. Not prepared, couldn't make it... yadda, yadda, yadda..... And... they still get paid.?!?!? :unsure: What sense does that make? Oh yeah. It makes sense, lawyers make the laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Milod - I agree almost exactly with you about Mr. J. He's the kind of guy that gets tangled up in something he can't control despite his basically trying to do the right thing. I'd say his tragic flaw may be that he turned into what he despised. That he got sucked into the modern corporate mentality of trying to chisel your costs at the expense of your integrity. That he lost sight of the big picture and put the value of his company at great risk by being a cheapskate. The only information I have is what I've read in the affidavit from the investigator and what Gibson has said. I don't have any special insight into what happened other than what's out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenced Fred Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrTshz223JA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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