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Gibson Has Serious Quality Control Issues AGAIN !

#41 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:44 AM

Quote

don't want to buy a guitar that's already been played by potentially a dozen people or more during its time in the shop before I could get to it.



That I could care less about, what I care about is the damage acquired and in relation to the price. Which makes this a "contradiction"..............


Quote

Does it play well... does it sound good? That's all any of us should be concerned with.



Just saying and weight doesnt matter since when?
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#42 User is offline   kidblast 

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:29 AM

View PostGolden, on 19 June 2017 - 04:44 AM, said:

Just saying and weight doesnt matter since when?


As I get older, I notice it more than I use to..
/Ray
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#43 User is offline   american cheez 

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:52 AM

View Postkidblast, on 19 June 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

As I get older, I notice it more than I use to..


funny, i never cared about weight until i bought my current LP with modern weight relief. i am soooo spoiled by it. now weight is a big factor when choosing a guitar.
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#44 User is offline   kidblast 

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:15 PM

I have two lps, the 95 is a beast, it's close to 12 lbs. the '02 is about 9. 3lbs don't seem like a lot but the difference is pretty stark.
My SGs and fenders feel like they weigh nothing at all, 7/8 lbs.
/Ray
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#45 User is offline   MichaelT 

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 01:44 PM

My 81 "The V" is pretty heavy. I'm not sure how heavy it is but it feels heavier than both of my Les Pauls, one with ultra modern weight relief, the other with classic weight relief. The V has no weight relief at all. The 2007 V is really light comparatively. It's not a problem with me now but if I were playing more often and for more hours on stage at my age, I could see how it could become an issue. I use (and have always used) wide leather straps to compensate for the weight. The newest one I am using is from LM straps and is wide and has a bit of cushion built into the strap.

https://lm-products....riant=968368571

I often stand and play with it on for an hour or two at a time and it helps distribute the weight of the guitars.
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#46 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 05:51 AM

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It's not a problem with me now but if I were playing more often and for more hours on stage



Right thats the issue, I simply became mindful of weight early on, but I think the real point is various issues discussed have various ranks of priority with players. The first thing Im mindful of is weight, but thats me.

You know to a collector appearance may take precedence over weight or tone. Or with a neck accept a thinner or fatter neck without thought of 1st position ease of playing compared to the higher registers. Think about it with thin thick optics equating to better tone. To me "tone" and neck profile "are not" mutually exclusive to me being able to properly play a instrument for the proper result required. If you cant do that what good is the tone? You would be saying he sounds good and plays shitty? LOL.


I just think so much comes into play and Gibson is selling on such a large scale at every price point that the idea of perfection still needs to be qualified by comparison and by large resides in the person, something similar in the USA on this scale PRS Fender I suppose.

Hey I get it everyone always wants better better better I cant imagine that ever changed as we see. Now we have so many best offerings best became relevant and confusing. Perfect and practical may be at odds and the practical perfection exists at all price points made in the USA. So we want more consistency in general? Demand and expect it...sounds american. [scared] :-({|=
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#47 User is offline   JAC 

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:11 PM

they send hundreds and hundreds of them out the door every single day.

Really? Where did you learn of this?
What da ya mean dude, You mean like dude ranch?........In other words, If music be the language of love, then play on!
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#48 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 01:56 AM

Just to chime in, I dont know how many as its an approximation, Gibson Custom Shop Nashville "comfortably" completes 50-60 electrics a day they can push 75, Memphis another 40-50 semi hollows. And that doesnt include production line. This I heard while I was there from an employee.

However Gibsons sight claims ....


'Nashville, TN, and nearly all of the work involved in building the approximately 2,500 Les Pauls, Flying Vs, Explorers, SGs, Firebirds and other models made each week is done by hand. Even the automated processes — like cutting wood blocks into the shape of guitar bodies — are part of an epic ballet of scheduling that involves nearly 500 workers dedicated to keeping the guitar-making process flowing smoothly.

However, that said thats a lot of guitars a year, I wouldnt sign that in blood as the truth but its from the source itself. Over 300 guitars a day from my calculation taken into consideration weekends and holidays.


http://www.gibson.co...gibson-usa.aspx
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#49 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 03:23 AM

View PostGolden, on 18 June 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

...I would go out on a limb and suggest the highly figured and closely matched top you see plentiful today with LPs were a very small percent in 59...

According to author and guitar historian Yasuhiko Iwanade in his wonderful book "The Beauty of the 'Burst";

"Among the existing sunburst Les Pauls the percentage of the ones with any figure on the top is less than one-third. Out of this group about half have figured tops. The book-matched top with strong figure covering the entire top is believed to be a very small percentage of the total number."

It is generally accepted that there were roughly 1,800 sunburst Standards made between '58 and '60. From this starting number we can see that around 600 instruments will have any trace of figure and, therefore, about 300 have what would be described as truly 'figured' tops. If we guess (and it is just a guess) that perhaps up to half of this group - but probably less - have "book-matched top with strong figure covering the entire top" it follows that there were probably fewer than 150 examples of these most sought-after guitars crafted.

Pip.
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#50 User is offline   Farnsbarns 

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 05:53 AM

View Postpippy, on 22 June 2017 - 03:23 AM, said:

According to author and guitar historian Yasuhiko Iwanade in his wonderful book "The Beauty of the 'Burst";

"Among the existing sunburst Les Pauls the percentage of the ones with any figure on the top is less than one-third. Out of this group about half have figured tops. The book-matched top with strong figure covering the entire top is believed to be a very small percentage of the total number."

It is generally accepted that there were roughly 1,800 sunburst Standards made between '58 and '60. From this starting number we can see that around 600 instruments will have any trace of figure and, therefore, about 300 have what would be described as truly 'figured' tops. If we guess (and it is just a guess) that perhaps up to half of this group - but probably less - have "book-matched top with strong figure covering the entire top" it follows that there were probably fewer than 150 examples of these most sought-after guitars crafted.

Pip.


Obviously written by a moron to be fair. 'the percentage is less than a third'.

I can't abide that kind of stupidity.
I'm not drunk, you're blurry.

Farns
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#51 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 07:50 AM

View PostFarnsbarns, on 22 June 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

...Obviously written by a moron to be fair. 'the percentage is less than a third'...

Well, to be really fair, Yas Iwanade would have written his original text in Japanese; it is more likely to be the subsequent translation which is at fault...

Pip.
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#52 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 02:30 AM

View Postpippy, on 22 June 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

Well, to be really fair, Yas Iwanade would have written his original text in Japanese; it is more likely to be the subsequent translation which is at fault...

Pip.


Have you played the chambered 58RIs from back around 2012? What did you think of those compared to say a 2014 with a solid body same otherwise?



By the way its always surprised me how a 5A or 4A top goes on variuous LP models but not the RIs. The reissues as you know Gibson is careful there, usually using the words "figured" or "flamed". The ones I've seen run from "AA" to "AAA", although I have seen a couple owned by members here that would be "AAAA". So you can see why Gibson is sticking with words rather than grades. This is a nice top though I dont know I would call it 5 or even 4 definite 3.


http://www.gibson.co...l-Standard.aspx



But they simply vary as you know. However look at these......


http://www.guitarcen...500000032900.gc


Clearly they are consistent and in my RI search I came upon one in person.............

https://newyork.crai...6175407655.html


Or for example be it quilt they too are consistent.


http://www.musicians...L4MF-adType^PLA


I think the answer is people expect a more consistent offering to 58-59 with its various degrees of tops as we discussed. But by the same token this is something people need to realize when looking at RIs they simply vary a great deal


That said the tops usually dont concern me very much but when you look at hardware pick-ups etc the situation changes. Hard for me to see a Richlite board for 7G or BB Pros for 4G.

That said even on the lower end such as the ES line in Memphis are for sure top consistent as we see with the latest Midtown Deluxe. Pretty hard to slight the Midtown for the price especially used. Or even with the Studios

https://newhaven.cra...6185249426.html
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#53 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 03:06 AM

View PostFarnsbarns, on 22 June 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

Obviously written by a moron to be fair. 'the percentage is less than a third'.

I can't abide that kind of stupidity.



[biggrin] I love the way pippy cleaned that up for the public readers. Well done..kudos. [thumbup]
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#54 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 04:45 AM

View PostGolden, on 23 June 2017 - 02:30 AM, said:

Have you played the chambered 58RIs from back around 2012? What did you think of those compared to say a 2014 with a solid body same otherwise?...

By the way its always surprised me how a 5A or 4A top goes on variuous LP models but not the RIs. The reissues as you know Gibson is careful there, usually using the words "figured" or "flamed". The ones I've seen run from "AA" to "AAA", although I have seen a couple owned by members here that would be "AAAA"...

I've only played one chambered re-issue. It was fine. Couldn't really say it was much different from a 'regular' R-I to be honest. It didn't even feel much lighter. The lightest LP I have played was at a Gibson-organised event in London many, many moons ago. It was a chambered Standard and it felt really weird; far too light and the neck-dive was horrible. OTOH one of my good mates (and fellow forumite) has a chambered Studio and, unplugged, it's one of the sweetest-sounding LPs I've ever played. Sounds just as good plugged-in, too.

As far as top-grading goes;
Until recently (two years ago?) Gibson almost always only used the terms Plain; A; AA and AAA grades for their tops. Occasionally - like in some of the links in your post - they would call something AAAAA but these instances were very rare and were for special runs. All grading was subjective and many people have had discussions here about whether their top was AA or AAA. The truth of the matter was that if Gibson decided to call it a AA it was a AA. If Gibson called it a AAA it was a AAA. End of story.
The normal practice was to mark the guitars in one of the p'up cavities. AA tops were marked as 'LPP' (Plus) and AAA were marked as 'LPPP' (Premium Plus). As an example;

Posted Image

We could speculate as to the reason why Gibson don't use the fanciest tops for the R-I's. Probably because almost none of the originals had AAAAA-style tops and folks who desire a R-I don't want their guitar to look like it's more at home in a tart's bedroom than in a bar.

Pip.
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#55 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 06:48 AM

Quote

I've only played one chambered re-issue. It was fine. Couldn't really say it was much different from a 'regular' R-I to be honest. It didn't even feel much lighter.



I have to play one with the custom buckers. Neck dive is a good point to check. That said in comparison its hard for me to tell between the chamber swiss and solid since I never used the same electronics in them.
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#56 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:13 AM

View PostGolden, on 23 June 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

...Neck dive is a good point to check. That said in comparison its hard for me to tell between the chamber swiss and solid since I never used the same electronics in them...

Neck-dive is something worth bearing in mind but I don't think it will be a common problem.
My experience mentioned earlier was, I suspect, a freak event. For the Gibson shindig I'm guessing they had deliberately selected an uncommonly lightweight Standard to show off what was the newly-introduced concept of the chambered Les Paul. My limited experience of chambered guitars since this one-off event has been the guitars are nothing like as light as was that first example. BTW using Grover tuners instead of Klusons can also heighten any neck-dive issue.

To be frank it's impossible (IMO) for humans to tell the difference between 9-hole and solid just by listening to them. There have been a great many arguments on this subject here but a few of us have made open-ended offers to anyone who thinks they can tell which is which in a blind test. No-one has ever taken up the challenge. I have two solid-bodies (RI's) and two 9-hole (1960 Classics) and I'd bet no-one could tell which was which simply by listening to their tone. They even weigh-in at almost the same weight varying by less than 4 ounces from lightest to heaviest so, neck profiles apart, they feel exactly the same into the bargain.

Chambered guitars are a slightly different matter. I haven't spent enough time with a chambered guitar myself to do exhaustive back-to-back tests but most folks who own examples of each say the chambered guitars are slightly livelier with a bit more 'sparkle' - whatever that means. As I said earlier one of the sweetest-sounding LPs I've played was a chambered Studio and it did seem to be a bit brighter-sounding when compared to my own Lesters. Hardly conclusive proof, I know, but FWIW that has been my experience.

Pip.
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#57 User is offline   Golden 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:40 AM

I hear you sounds good to me. The 12s are going about 500 less here probably due to the chamber and laminated rosewood. Not altogether a deal killer but something to think about.
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#58 User is offline   MichaelT 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 08:01 AM

The weight of my Tribute, which is 9 hole and my Standard with the ultra modern weight relief seem to be about the same weight. I haven't put them on a scale to test.

Pip, or anyone else, what is the average weight of an R-I/Traditional, a Classic, Standard, etc? Mine seems to be fairly heavy but I have not weighed them. I just wonder if there's an average. I'm fairly certain you're going to say that they vary wildly from 9 to 15 pounds but just thought I'd ask.
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#59 User is offline   pippy 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 09:15 AM

They vary wildly from 9 to 15 pounds....












I don't really know for sure. All I can say is info taken from what I've read here on the forum and from what I've seen published elsewhere.

Looking at the sunburst re-issues currently listed at Mark's Guitar Loft, for instance, the vast majority - 25 out of around 30 or so - are in the 8 lb 10oz - 8 lb 15oz area.
Some are in the low 8's and a few are a fraction over 9 lbs.

LP Custom RIs seem to be around 9 1/2 lbs

The pair of chambered RI's they have are 7 lb 5oz and 7 lb 9oz.
There is also a chambered Standard which is just over 8 lbs.

9-hole and modern w/r I've seen mentioned here usually seem to be around the 9 1/4 lbs to 9 3/4 lbs mark.
The solid-bodied Trads seem to be slightly heavier. Most seem to be 9 lb 8oz to well over 10 lbs.

FWIW my two solid- and two 9-hole'd are all somewhere between roughly 8 lb 14oz and 9 lb 1oz.

But none of this is remotely definitive nor authoritative! Just stuff I've read.

Pip.
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#60 User is offline   charlie brown 

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 10:37 AM

"Neck Dive" on a Les Paul??? Really??? SG's on occasion (usually with '50's style fat necks),
but I've never experienced "neck dive" on a single or double cut Les Paul. Weight relieved, or
otherwise. Maybe(?) I've just been fortunate, that way??? :-k

In fact, the only SG's I've ever played, that were "neck heavy" were the early 2000's SG Specials,
with the "crescent moon" neck inlays. Those tended to have very "fat" necks, and so were more prone
to neck dive. But, none of my current SG's have any neck dive, at all!


CB
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