SteveFord Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Anybody else notice this bit? http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2014/Les-Paul-Supreme.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 And that's how it should be - a guitar of that class should have an ebony board unless it is something else for "historic" reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Hello! I want that guitar so bad. Lord...in seafoam blue, please!! Even though, I know that noone else likes it around here... The previous Supremes seemed too over-decorated to me (like, Brezhnev with all His fake medals :)). But this one is so elegant, so interesting...mmmm. On ebony. I wouldn't expect it to be long-lasting tendency. On longer terms, - I think - makers will prefer local materials, or synthetics. You know? The sustainability. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Isn't returning to the scene of the crime a sign of consciousness of guilt? Just kidding, kind of. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 So, does this mean the Government (Fish and Wildlife) admits they were wrong to seize Gibson's wood inventory a couple of years ago? I can't imagine they'd return it if it truly were 'illegal''. They were (are) planning to destroy thousands of pounds of illegal ivory seized over the years smuggled in illegally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 So, does this mean the Government (Fish and Wildlife) admits they were wrong to seize Gibson's wood inventory a couple of years ago? No, the outcome was made.public some time ago. I won't post what I remember in fear of getting anything slightly wrong. Google is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 So, does this mean the Government (Fish and Wildlife) admits they were wrong to seize Gibson's wood inventory a couple of years ago? I can't imagine they'd return it if it truly were 'illegal''. They were (are) planning to destroy thousands of pounds of illegal ivory seized over the years smuggled in illegally. When the Gov't returned the ebony, it was part of a complicated deal, most of which is apparently not public. Obviously the returned ebony was deemed legal in due course, but at the same time, it was obviously not wrong for the Gov't to seize it, since some, if not most, of what was seized was illegal. That's pretty simple. If that doesn't make sense to somebody, then they're not informed enough to understand how this stuff works. The world is way more complicated than it seems sometimes. We'll see here soon enough whether Gibson will be able to stop using Richlite and go back to using ebony on all their custom level guitars. At this point, it appears that they have some 'returned' ebony and they have some 'other' ebony in enough quantity so that they can use it on some super-high-end instruments. The truth will be apparent soon enough. Hopefully they can get back to a place where the Gov't can get off their back and they can return to using ebony unrestricted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If my memory serves me correctly, the fretboards were incorrectly identified through the importation process on more than one occasion. Since there was no trial and Gibson settled out of court, we don't really know if Gibson was part of a conspiracy. I suppose the gubment could have kept the wood, auctioned it off, or given it back to Gibson after they settled. Generous move by Obama. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I've had ebony fretboards in the past, but none currently. It meant the most to me on a classical guitar fingerboard - and nothing except for the "pretty" on electrics. As for the government "case" with Gibson, I get the impression that the bottom line was that Gibson may have allowed a bit of sloppy purchasing practices that were fine by the nation of export, but seen as a great potential target through some interpretations of treaties on the part of some federal bureaucrats. So... we had guitar builders, secretaries and such, swarmed over by armed SWAT types out of fear apparently that somebody might throw a Grover at them or use an unwound G as a garrote if the heat didn't have full-auto firearms, vests and helmets. Silly... but a backsource indicated the whole thing started due to an individual/individuals with personal animus against Gibson and that grew as it went through the bureaucracy. That's not to suggest that there probably was some question of the specific wording of the treaty/law and whether Gibson had some wood that didn't meet some interpretations. IMHO that's a bit silly overall, but... Still safer for folks involved than a lot of similar stuff has been, and the fact that much "taken" material was returned. The taking itself might be seen as punative since it also included work computers with all sorts of business "work" on them. I cannot imagine getting any work done at my job for quite some time if I lost my work computer. But... that obviously was of little concern to the troops. I have a hunch both "sides" were embarrassed by the contretemps. No "generosity" involved, simply a desire to end a situation with bad public relations on both sides. And... a slow return of some confiscated/stolen goods. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Or return of the wood was an undisclosed part of the settlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Frankly my cynicism suggests the "undisclosed" is the problem I see in current "government" at all levels with the transparency of the average brick wall. It tended to be that way in the '60s and'70s, lessened significantly then until the past five or six years. Don't take this as total criticism specifically of U.S. "national" government. The change is across everything from local schools and towns to states and federal. You can't believe the number of "executive sessions" today compared to 30 years ago. Nor the number of "sealed" lawsuit settlement agreements. Although... I can't forget one in about '67 when the state was sued for more cash by a farmer whose land was crossed by an Interstate highway. The first trial apparently was overturned by one side or the other and the second trial functionally was held in complete secret with the one journalist who noticed told that he'd find himself in "more trouble than you can imagine" by the judge. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If my memory serves me correctly, the fretboards were incorrectly identified through the importation process on more than one occasion. Since there was no trial and Gibson settled out of court, we don't really know if Gibson was part of a conspiracy. I suppose the gubment could have kept the wood, auctioned it off, or given it back to Gibson after they settled. Generous move by Obama. ;) Wait before he had nothing to do with it. Now he has everything to do with it. I saw what you did there.\:D/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 When the Gov't returned the ebony, it was part of a complicated deal, most of which is apparently not public. Obviously the returned ebony was deemed legal in due course, but at the same time, it was obviously not wrong for the Gov't to seize it, since some, if not most, of what was seized was illegal. That's pretty simple. If that doesn't make sense to somebody, then they're not informed enough to understand how this stuff works. The world is way more complicated than it seems sometimes. endquote... Wow. OK - it is obviously complicated. I thought it was simple until you explained it to me. So, I apologize - I get suspicious of some things I don't understand. I know nuclear fission is complicated, but I'm not suspicious of it. Illegal wood - less complicated, hence more suspicious. It was not 'obvious' to me that 'the returned ebony was deemed legal in due course'. Instead, it seemed obvious that it would have had to have been legal the day it was seized, or it wouldn't have been returned. The government should have inspected the wood as it crossed the border and determined at that point if it was legal. Not waited months and seized wood inventory on a grand scale. How can a guitar builder deal with things so complex it takes the experts a year or so to figure out? Whether there was other ebony 'deemed' to be illegal - I don't know. It's that 'non-disclosure' thingy I guess. Coming from an industry where the Federal Government deems billing errors to 'fraud and abuse' subject to criminal penalties, I an inherently suspicious of agencies who create regulations which are so complicated it takes them months or years to 'deem' things. First problem is when the exporting country says the wood is legal and the importing country has different rules and says it isn't. When part of the US Fish & Wildlife definition of legal requires the wood have significant foreign labor applied to it so it is not a 'raw' material but a finished product. So, part of the differing definitions has to do with labor added, and not just the actual protected wood. I don't think they do that for ivory. More complicated when it seems Border and Customs would be involved instead of Fish & Wildlife. (I know - the wood is covered under a 100 year old bird feather law.) More complicated when the settlement is shrouded in secrecy because the US government demands it of the company they raided. When that can only raise questions whether the raid was legal or not and the company, seriously needing to get back to business ,was a victim of 'legalized' extortion. Yes, nuclear fission is complicated. But this doesn't ned to be. if ebony is a precious, scarce resource - ban it's import - period. That makes transparency attainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Well. I think it's pig ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Well. I think it's pig ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 When the Gov't returned the ebony, it was part of a complicated deal, most of which is apparently not public. Obviously the returned ebony was deemed legal in due course, but at the same time, it was obviously not wrong for the Gov't to seize it, since some, if not most, of what was seized was illegal. That's pretty simple. If that doesn't make sense to somebody, then they're not informed enough to understand how this stuff works. The world is way more complicated than it seems sometimes. Wow. OK - it is obviously complicated. I thought it was simple until you explained it to me. So, I apologize - I get suspicious of some things I don't understand. I know nuclear fission is complicated, but I'm not suspicious of it. Illegal wood - less complicated, hence more suspicious. It was not 'obvious' to me that 'the returned ebony was deemed legal in due course'. Instead, it seemed obvious that it would have had to have been legal the day it was seized, or it wouldn't have been returned. The government should have inspected the wood as it crossed the border and determined at that point if it was legal. Not waited months and seized wood inventory on a grand scale. How can a guitar builder deal with things so complex it takes the experts a year or so to figure out? Whether there was other ebony 'deemed' to be illegal - I don't know. It's that 'non-disclosure' thingy I guess. Coming from an industry where the Federal Government deems billing errors to 'fraud and abuse' subject to criminal penalties, I an inherently suspicious of agencies who create regulations which are so complicated it takes them months or years to 'deem' things. First problem is when the exporting country says the wood is legal and the importing country has different rules and says it isn't. When part of the US Fish & Wildlife definition of legal requires the wood have significant foreign labor applied to it so it is not a 'raw' material but a finished product. So, part of the differing definitions has to do with labor added, and not just the actual protected wood. I don't think they do that for ivory. More complicated when it seems Border and Customs would be involved instead of Fish & Wildlife. (I know - the wood is covered under a 100 year old bird feather law.) More complicated when the settlement is shrouded in secrecy because the US government demands it of the company they raided. When that can only raise questions whether the raid was legal or not and the company, seriously needing to get back to business ,was a victim of 'legalized' extortion. Yes, nuclear fission is complicated. But this doesn't ned to be. if ebony is a precious, scarce resource - ban it's import - period. That makes transparency attainable. The ebony had nothing to do with labour. Gibson sent a guy to Madagascar to investigate ebony sources. The guy said (in written communication) that there was no white market and all sourses would be "grey market" at best. Gibson imported anyway by got caught out. The rosewood situation was 2 fold. The rosewood was deemed "unfinished" by the US authorities where as the Indian authorities saw it as "finished fretboard blanks" which satisfied their labour protection laws. That's one thing but it was also mislabled, indicating it was thinner than it was. I seem to remember Gibson were found to be complicit in the mislabeling but don't take that as read. I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 One way or another, a heavily armed SWAT team attacked Gibson as though it were somewhere in a war zone. Even were Gibson to have been totally breaking every importation and "business" law that might be imagined to have been broken, that response appears to have been a bit more than extreme. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 One way or another, a heavily armed SWAT team attacked Gibson as though it were somewhere in a war zone. Even were Gibson to have been totally breaking every importation and "business" law that might be imagined to have been broken, that response to have been a bit more than extreme. m +++1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Madagascar has destroyed 3/4s of its forests to create farmland. Many countries like Indonesia simply burn the trees. Palm tree oil plantations generate money for the investors as well as the politicians. It is the US who decides they won't import things, but the third world countries destroy them anyway. Just like the US hamstrings itself over carbon emissions and OSHA rules while countries like China and India laugh at us as they build more factories to replace the ones we shut down. I'm guessing you can get a guitar made in China, for a few hundred dollars that would have the US Federal Agencies apoplectic if it were being made here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 forty... Yeahbut... Don't you understand that it's our responsibility to apologize for our arrogance at becoming a "first world" country by ensuring that we retreat into a third-world existence? That's why our coal increasingly goes overseas to pollute the global air supply and offer inexpensive energy instead of polluting the air in North America and "causing global warming" - and why the U.S. encourages Canada to export Alberta oil to China instead of to the U.S. in the Keystone XL pipeline that "we" are sandbagging approval through political gamesmanship. And... did you know some new farming rules in the U.S. may consider some corn and wheat fields as "wetlands" that even driving a tractor to plant crops would be considered against the law? We obviously need to protect that land by plowing and seeding it with ox, mule or horse-powered hand plows and seeders - or not farming at all. (I wish I were kidding, but I'm not. Folks have no idea how urban political figures and others simply have no comprehension of farming and ranching and how much farmers and ranchers do to protect the land they need to make a living.) m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimi Mac Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I approve of the marketing! When the government gets too big for it's britches people need to call 'em out for the tyranny they inevitably endeavor! It was nothing more than an overstepping of it's true authority and just another in a long line of malfeasance on the part of Eric Holder's DOinJ! It's been explained, by uncle ObamaSam and his minions to be something far more righteous by fraudulent international environmental regulatory "agreement" and frankly it never was and that became an after-the-fact story and excuse that allowed a completely unnecessary daytime armed with automatic weapons paramilitary raid/assault on American citizen workers in their workplace doing nothing illegal or wrong... Otherwise the wood would never have been returned! Frankly it was the darkest day in Free American history that such a tyrannical assault would be employed against American citizenry simply on-the-clock in their place of work! It NEVER had to happen that way, period! Anyway, we need to have constant reminders otherwise the Brownshirts and black clad minions will be Stormtroopin' all over anyone that opposes or disagrees with current political administrations! It was a sickening display of fascism! It won't be the last either... This is an in-your-face thorn-in-the-side of such political steamrolling tactics and a classy reminder of what can happen when Fedzilla simply stomps on the Constitution... We turn into soviet Russia with the uber-liberal democrap politics are given a free reign! The portend to champion the minorities when they are the Nazis in reality! Good on Gibson! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I love this!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6IGH53PZ6Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 So... we had guitar builders, secretaries and such, swarmed over by armed SWAT types... If you haven't noticed the nation-wide militarization of American law enforcement over the last decade, you haven't been paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 You can't believe ... the number of "sealed" lawsuit settlement agreements. In general, nondisclosure settlement agreements are not uncommon and not new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 We turn into soviet Russia with the uber-liberal democrap politics are given a free reign! Maybe you could explain how the "uber-liberal democrap politics" is going to directly cause the U.S. to turn into the former USSR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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