J-35 disappointment

[NJ Tom]

I've had my J-35 about 2 weeks now. I love the dry, crisp punchy sound. It's a featherwight, looks beautiful, and seems very well constructed. It even smells nice. I got an amazing deal which I've described in a previous post. There's nothing I don't like, except one thing....the neck.

 

First, I'm not an accomplished player by any measure. I'm a strummer, basically play cowboy chords, ocassionally travel up the neck, and sometimes do short, simple licks. I like to capo on several songs. I'm 62, only started to play late in life around age 54, but lost interest the last 2 years. Since retirement I dived in again, kind of starting from scratch for the second time.

 

The problem I'm having is that my fingers seemed cramped at the first few frets and I buzz or mute strings unintentionally. The open A, Dsus, F, are particular problems. It gets worse playing other open chord positions further up the neck with a capo. My hand seems to get tired after only a short time.

 

A friend who is a player and much more knowledgeable thinks my problem is a combo of the nut width, neck thickness, and short scale. I played his 15 series Martin....1-11/16 nut, long scale, and low profile neck. I also have a Martin Smartwood OM...same neck profile and long scale, but with a 1-3/4 nut. Yet I have no problems with either nut width and I can practice much longer with the Martin without fatigue.

 

It seems like it boils down to the chunky neck and short scale of my Gibson. Does this make sense?

 

I'm very disappointed, but not at Gibson....the guitar just doesn't seem to fit my left hand. I really want to love this guitar but it's very frustrating. I pick it up everyday to practice a bit and end up putting it away and playing the Martin instead.

 

I like the 15/16/17 series mahogany Martins very much, but I'm really digging the more raw sound I perceive with the J-35. But I may have to give up the Gibson and get a Martin. At least I know I can play it a easier.

 

Suggestions? Thoughts?

[Boyd]

You probably just need to stick with it and give it time. Not quite sure that I understand your comments on the neck. Basically, are you saying it's too fat? The J-35 neck is just like my 2008 J-50. Recently I became aware that it's harder to play than my skinny neck guitars - my hands are not all that big. I just got a 1965 J-50 that has a skinny neck, and it is *so* much easier on my hand. I can play twice as long as the new guitar without getting a sore hand. But I still enjoy the new J-50 too.

 

I had a Martin D-15M for about three years and just gave it to my son in law as a Christmas present (he loves it). The sound is completely different from Gibson, it's a good sound, but very different. You would probably like it for "cowboy chords", I think it's strength is beautiful sounding open chords with a rich bass. It doesn't do very well with melody lines that are played on the upper strings. They don't "sing out" like a Gibson, they sort of get lost in the rest of the chord. But I don't know that the neck will feel much different. One thing I wasn't crazy about was the edges of the neck. They are rather "sharp" and didn't feel as comfortable as the rounded edge of the Gibson necks.

 

I'm 65, started playing around 1969 and played on and off over the years, eventually spending many years without playing at all. When I retired 4 years ago, I decided to get serious and now practice every day for an hour or two. It's hard work and you need lots of patience. You may need to spend a couple more years to get to the point you want. I know from personal experience that it's easy to blame the guitar for your frustration. Since the J-35 is only two weeks old, I think it would be a mistake to give up on it so soon. You're at the point now where "the honeymoon is over", so settle down, work on your technique and learn what the guitar is really capable of. Six month from now, if you still aren't happy then it might be time to look for another guitar.

[Rambler]

Since you like the tone etc of the gutiar , id give it a chance. The discomfort might be your hand adapting to the new shape, nothing crippling. The advanagte of a chunky neck profile to me is that it fills the hand nicely in a rounded arc. Thinner profiles (for me) tend to pull the hand in a mpure upright psotion which I find less comfortable. I think they support the note better (definition/sustain), but that's conjecture. If it doesnt work out, and you still hanker for a Gibosn, the std J45s and J15s have slimmer profiles. Hope that helps

[MorrisrownSal]

Tom,

 

I own a few Gibsons and a few Martins - including several 15 series. By all means, life is short and making music is awesome. Trade your J35 in for a 15 Series. If you like the sound, and can play longer on them, then it is a no brainer.

 

On the other hand...

 

You can buy a brand new 15 series for under a grand all in by calling Maurys Music, and it will be in your house in a day. There is nothing saying you can't have two guitars :)

[Boyd]

There is nothing saying you can't have two guitars :)

 

He already does.

 

I also have a Martin Smartwood OM...same neck profile and long scale, but with a 1-3/4 nut.

[BigKahune]

.

Give it a couple more weeks. Or, if the seller has a return policy, at least to the point you can return for refund.

 

Some folks find a certain nut width and neck profile work great for them, and everything else is a struggle and/or uncomfortable. After a couple of weeks, if the J-35 is still not working for you - go out and play through some shops to sample nut widths and neck profiles. You may find the Martin 15 is perfect for you, or you might find another nut/profile combination that works better for you. Either way, get into to a guitar you're comfortable playing, with a sound/tone you like.

 

Hope you find a solution. . . B)

 

 

.

[zombywoof]

I don't think anybody likes fingering an F chord. If there is an open chord that is going to drive you bonkers that be it.

 

Could be a bunch of things coming into play which would make you favor the feel of this guitar over that. The usual culprits would be neck profile and nut width but there are also variables such as board radius - one guitar having a flatter or more arched board than another guitar. Finding out what works for you and how to pull music out of a guitar is just part of the learning process. And it is a process that never ends because as you get older it sometimes changes as fingers will not do what they once did. I have a few years on you and play in different style than I did even ten years ago. It was adapt or put the guitars away.

 

My thinking though is what is going on is how you bring the fingers on your left hand down. If you are inadvertently getting a buzz on a neighboring string or muting a string it is often because your finger is side swiping a string.

 

Personally, I would think you might try experimenting with your left hand position a bit. Just be mindful how you are bringing your fingers down on the board. And as others have said, just give it some time. The feel of a Gibson may just not be what you are comfy with. Then again, once you figure out how to pull what you want out of the guitar, a Gibson might just be a tiny piece of Heaven.

[62burst]

Don't give up on a guitar that you like the sound of just yet. The Martin guitars that your friends have (and you found to play more comfortably) are long scale, and actually have higher string tension. Your guitar should be checked for proper setup. Guitar got dry on you? A dry guitar can cause a higher action as the neck bows; have the action height measured. A well-set up guitar not only plays more easily, but sounds better, too.

[NJ Tom]

Thanks for all the replies so far. My guitars are properly humidified and stay in their cases. The new Gibson is weeks old. Both appear to be set up OK with no neck bows, and action seems OK. Both show accurate tuning at the 1st and 12th frets.

 

I was aware that string tension is higher on a long scale, but my Martin or Gibson don't feel different from each other in that regard, so I'm not figuring that into the equation.

 

I hadn't thought of the fretboard radius though. The fact that my Martin, and the D15 I tried out, both have the same neck profile, scale, and radius despite different nut widths, might suggest something about my difficulties with the Gibson. I'm far from an expert, only going by process of elimination.

 

I have a 30 day return at GC on the Gibson, so I'll take all of your advice on sticking with it a little longer. But I can't wait 6 months as was suggested, and I'm not prepared to get another guitar and still keep the J-35. Man, I thought life was supposed to get easier at retirement!!!!

 

More advice/suggestions are always welcome.

[j45nick]

 

Personally, I would think you might try experimenting with your left hand position a bit. Just be mindful how you are bringing your fingers down on the board. And as others have said, just give it some time. The feel of a Gibson may just not be what you are comfy with. Then again, once you figure out how to pull what you want out of the guitar, a Gibson might just be a tiny piece of Heaven.

 

 

^^ What ZW said, in spades. My 68-year-old hands and fingers simply won't do the things they did when I was 25. But you learn to adapt. Part of that can be changing your left hand and wrist position to give your fingers more of a "piano hammer" type of attack and isolation from the adjacent strings. Not easy after a lifetime doing it other ways.

[Boyd]

Man, I thought life was supposed to get easier at retirement!!!!

 

And I thought age brings patience!

 

Seriously, I really like Zomby's advice about finger/hand position. When I first started learning guitar, I thought it was all about pressing the right strings. With experience, I learned that not touching the other strings is just as important. :)

[62burst]

Yes, fellas, I was thinking the same, except the OP mentioned he does not have the issue with the other guitars, as well as his Martin.

 

Most experienced luthiers can see .005". That's the width of the black hash mark on this StewMac gauge: Action Gauge. At least get it measured, but ideally, get a tech to check for a properly made nut & saddle as well.

 

Yes, you probably wouldn't even notice it if you were a kid ; ) .

[NJ Tom]

I learned that not touching the other strings is just as important. :)

 

Therein lies what I'm experiencing. My fingers are as tight as possible when fretting the Gibson. And the nut is almost as wide as my Martin OM, yet a narrower nut a different Martin isn't a problem either.

 

But, oh that sound of Gibson mahogany!!!

[vacamartin]

"It seems like it boils down to the chunky neck and short scale of my Gibson. Does this make sense?"

 

 

 

 

Tom.......it appears to me that your comfort level lies in the "modified low oval" neck by Martin........but that can change drastically with the level of play time and accomplishment in your abilities! Do not give up on that J-35 yet. It took me a few years to warm up fully to the Gibson nut width, neck ,scale , and spacing.....but once I did, I found it to be my favorite for difficult inversions and chord shapes. Having a variety of neck shapes and scale options gives you many options in your arsenal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bobouz]

Check the overall setup.

 

Are the strings riding high on the nut?

Is the neck relief set properly?

Is the saddle height set somewhat high?

Is there room to play with the string spacing at the nut?

 

These factors can critically impact comfort & overall playability.

 

Also, are the strings the same on the guitars you're sampling?

If not, differing gauges might factor into your A-B comparisons.

 

Lots to consider!

[EuroAussie]

I would do one of two things.

 

(1) Persist a bit longer and see if you can get used to it.

 

(2) If that dont work, sell the J-35 and look at a late 60's J-45, CW or so, they have 1 11/16 nut widths (some 9/16) low profile and that Gibby tone.

[ajay]

An Advanced Jumbo has 1-11/16" nut also. GC usually has some of them hanging around. My F chord is iffy on my Kalamazoo, but on my Advanced Jumbo I play the F clean with no problem. Could be that Ren got the radius right as well as the long scale. I tried a Dwight Yoakam Honky Tonk Deuce for a few weeks, and it was actually a Southern Jumbo, but the short scale just threw me because the Epiphone that I had played for 30 years was a long scale. I was uncomfortable with the Deuce, but got my AJ and the F rings like a bell. Scale length does make a difference in comfort at the nut.

[EuroAussie]

An Advanced Jumbo has 1-11/16" nut also.

 

No it doesnt. 1.725mm

[Dave F]

A few years ago I started down this same road. In my sixties, only one nut/neck combination felt good, loosing fatty tissues in my fingers made barre chords difficult and arthritis was setting in on my knuckles. I started exercising my hands and trying out different shapes and it seems to help. Like some of you, when I was younger this did not seem to be an issue.

[stein]

One way to look at it, is sometimes, as guitar players, we have to sacrifice a little ease of playing and comfort for tone.

 

Is the tone worth it?

 

To me, it's really, really, really, really, really hard, very very hard, to separate myself from a great sounding guitar.

[SteveFord]

Perhaps wait until the tail end of your 30 days and if it's still giving you trouble, return it. No sense in having something you don't enjoy playing.

 

FWIW, my Martin has one of the monster vintage necks and it took a few months to get used to it but perseverance pays off. I also didn't have the option of returning it so it was leave it in the case, sell it or master the damned thing. I chose the latter and I'm glad I did.

 

 

 

[Rambler]

Try some hand stretches and limbering before you pick, see if that does anything for you.

[NJ Tom]

Perhaps wait until the tail end of your 30 days and if it's still giving you trouble, return it. No sense in having something you don't enjoy playing.

 

 

That's the plan. It's killing me because the sound of this guitar is so cool. To my ears it's raw and simple and rock and roll. I love my Martin Smartwood...looks, sounds, feels beautiful but a different voice entirely. I dig the idea of owning both a Gibson and Martin, maybe not the higher end or vintage status, but two excellent guitars in their own right.

 

I have almost 3 weeks before I need to make a decision. Gonna give the J-35 another whirl tonite.

[BluesKing777]

The setup could be a whisker high even if it looks ok - that will cause hand fatigue. I have a new darling that is 2 whiskers high, but I have some spares, and also I dont want my baby darling to stay at the evil tech's shop for a few days just yet.... I tuned DOWN a semitone all over and my hand felt great, so good that I may just leave it tuned down....higher setup and the strings ring out more.... So try that if you like - each string loose 1frets worth, and if it helps, you may need the nut and saddle pruned a bit at a guitar tech.

 

Another course of action is to get on down to a couple of guitar shops and empty that wallet, I mean try every Gibson and others they have, but you are already hooked on the Gibson sound, I can tell, so maybe try a different J15, a J45, and the Hummingbird, but also the smaller body numbers.....one might say:"Hi - Pick me!" There are about 4 Billion guitars out there!

 

BluesKing777.

[MorrisrownSal]

Tom... just a thought (actually not even my thought, but rather the thought of a friend of mine that has experience with both guitars)...

 

Is it possible that your fatigue with the J35 relative to the OM is due not to the neck, but rather the deeper body of the J35 - which is about 1/2 inch deeper?