rct Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 The good people here can't see the forest of debt for the trees of guitar making. This was never about making good guitars, bad guitar ideas instead of good guitar ideas, not getting out of the 50's, firing Ren, X guitars, none of that. It is, was, and will this summer be about debt. Toys are us couldn't physically sell the toys at the rate they needed to recoup their debt, not in this known dimension and universe. They collapsed under the debt. Gibson may quite possibly not be able to sell enough great guitars at the rate needed to recoup their debt, not in this known dimension and universe, but you just can't say that stuff. It always has to be some picayune guitar thing that is causing this. lolz rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 ...the fact that the nut is adjustable.. That makes lots of sense to me.. The bridge is adjustable so doesn't it make sense the nut is too?... No. Not to me, Rabs. But, of course, you know a million times more about guitar making than I so please do explain why an adjustable nut is such a useful thing to have in addition to the adjustable bridge. I don't get it. Much like I don't see why the TP-6 beloved by Cap and a few others here (CB rings a bell!) is such an improvement over a bog-standard ABR-1 and stop-bar. An ABR-1 easily gets my intonation as good as I'm ever likely to need and with the Klusons and Stop-Tail I've never once had an issue as regards intonation. Why the quest for that last 0.0001% tonal accuracy? I really don't get it. A guitar neck is never going to be perfectly tempered. I can completely accept that truism without losing any badly-needed shut-eye... Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 No. Not to me, Rabs. But, of course, you know a million times more about guitar making than I so please do explain why an adjustable nut is such a useful thing to have in addition to the adjustable bridge. I don't get it. Much like I don't see why the TP-6 beloved by Cap and a few others here (CB rings a bell!) is such an improvement over a bog-standard ABR-1. An ABR-1 easily gets my intonation as good as I'm ever likely to need. Why the quest for that last 0.0001% tonal accuracy? I really don't get it. A guitar neck is never going to be perfectly tempered. I can completely accept that truism without losing any badly-needed shut-eye... Pip. Nothing to do with intonation. But string height... Its simply that if you want to change the set up, for instance use much heavier or lighter stings, or want to say use it for slide or you just decide you want the strings lower or higher for any reason. Having a nut you can adjust the height of makes it really really easy to set it all up rather than having to re-cut or shape the nut... Nothing more than that, but because of that I think its a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Its simply that if you want to change the set up, for instance use much heavier or lighter strings...or you just decide you want the strings lower or higher for any reason. Having a nut you can adjust the height of makes it really really easy... OK, points taken and understood, Rabs, but does any of that actually happen on a day-to-day basis in the real world? Or even on a year-by-year basis? Who decides, one day, to fundamentally change their regular guitar's set up? Who amongst us has arbitrarily decided to use much heavier or lighter strings all of a sudden? It just doesn't happen. Decide to choose one guitar for slide? OK. Raise the bridge. Job Done. Not picking a bunfight, Rabs, and with the very greatest respect I still cannot see the point of an adjustable nut. Not in the slightest. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Everybody always says "Gibson shouldn't do any of these dumb things like blah blah blah." And then they say "Except for this one idea I think is good!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 The good people here can't see the forest of debt for the trees of guitar making. This was never about making good guitars, bad guitar ideas instead of good guitar ideas, not getting out of the 50's, firing Ren, X guitars, none of that. It is, was, and will this summer be about debt. Toys are us couldn't physically sell the toys at the rate they needed to recoup their debt, not in this known dimension and universe. They collapsed under the debt. Gibson may quite possibly not be able to sell enough great guitars at the rate needed to recoup their debt, not in this known dimension and universe, but you just can't say that stuff. It always has to be some picayune guitar thing that is causing this. lolz rct I didn't think there was going to be any math involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I worked for a few decades in 'not for profit' hospitals - in Finance. Our constant battle with the care givers was, of course, over money. They tended to be caring, nurturing individuals. Teachers, and Nurses.... Most don't go into nursing for the money. At least, they don't stay in it long if they did. So - these somewhat liberal-oriented folks always thought of money as a nuisance and felt they should be able to do 'Whatever it takes to save just one life'. Noble, but unrealistic. Everyone dies sooner or later: 80% of the money spent on your healthcare will be in the last year of your life. Some tests and procedures are done for 'educational' or training purposes or as a defense in case of a lawsuit brought on by ambulance chasing lawyers. Anyway - my point - healthcare organizations that did not balance the concept "No Money - No Mission" suffered slow, lingering deaths. I am fairly certain Henry understands the concept. "No guitar sales - no Gibson Inc." And, I'm sure he could sell the company whenever he wanted and walk away never having to work another day in his life. But, unlike a few folks here - he wants Gibson to succeed. You can save the patient, but kill the company - he's trying to save both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I worked for a few decades in 'not for profit' hospitals - in Finance. Our constant battle with the care givers was, of course, over money. They tended to be caring, nurturing individuals. Teachers, and Nurses.... Most don't go into nursing for the money. At least, they don't stay in it long if they did. So - these somewhat liberal-oriented folks always thought of money as a nuisance and felt they should be able to do 'Whatever it takes to save just one life'. Noble, but unrealistic. Everyone dies sooner or later: 80% of the money spent on your healthcare will be in the last year of your life. Some tests and procedures are done for 'educational' or training purposes or as a defense in case of a lawsuit brought on by ambulance chasing lawyers. Anyway - my point - healthcare organizations that did not balance the concept "No Money - No Mission" suffered slow, lingering deaths. I am fairly certain Henry understands the concept. "No guitar sales - no Gibson Inc." And, I'm sure he could sell the company whenever he wanted and walk away never having to work another day in his life. But, unlike a few folks here - he wants Gibson to succeed. You can save the patient, but kill the company - he's trying to save both. The fact is that sometimes MBA's screw up stuff like the rest of us dopes. It's just that some of us are a little more "grounded in our fields of endeavor," if you know what I mean. Like actually educated in that field. Egocentric CEO's often do very well early in their careers but often make one or two gigantic mistakes late in their careers that destroy themselves. And the company let's the guy go and people go on in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 I am fairly certain Henry understands the concept. "No guitar sales - no Gibson Inc." And, I'm sure he could sell the company whenever he wanted and walk away never having to work another day in his life. But, unlike a few folks here - he wants Gibson to succeed. If the company was worth more than the aggregate debt and he could sell it whenever he wanted we wouldn't be having this conversation and there wouldn't be how many stories about their troubles. Contrary to a few folks here, discussing their problems is not wishing their failure. That's exactly the kool-aid that drowns organizations. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gibson Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Maybe someone put a curse on Gibson for revenge because of the 2015 fiasco. Easier explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 The fact is that sometimes MBA's screw up stuff like the rest of us dopes. It's just that some of us are a little more "grounded in our fields of endeavor," if you know what I mean. Like actually educated in that field. Egocentric CEO's often do very well early in their careers but often make one or two gigantic mistakes late in their careers that destroy themselves. And the company let's the guy go and people go on in life. Wow. Still hung up on the MBA thing. Sorry I brought it up. I like the idea of 'people go on in lie' though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 If the company was worth more than the aggregate debt and he could sell it whenever he wanted we wouldn't be having this conversation and there wouldn't be how many stories about their troubles. Contrary to a few folks here, discussing their problems is not wishing their failure. That's exactly the kool-aid that drowns organizations. rct Aaaaah. So the repetition of stories - some merely personal anecdotes going back decades - are evidence of mis-management that outweigh all else? The current episode in the Acoustic Forum of a member in UK who was denied warranty coverage by a Gibson authorized repair facility in The Netherlands is a perfect example. Regardless of how the Technician's faux pas is resolved by management - there or in Bozeman - that story will take on a life of its own and be repeated a hundred times here by people who only post negative comments about Gibson. Kool Aid is in the eye of the eye of the beholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Aaaaah. So the repetition of stories - some merely personal anecdotes going back decades - are evidence of mis-management that outweigh all else? Again with the robo tuners and bad decisions regarding what they do to or put on guitars. Recent discussions that have found, in particular, you and myself and a couple of others at odds have, again, had nothing to do with any of that stuff. It is not repeated stories from decades ago, is it not about mis-management, nor has it been about being completely subtractive. It doesn't matter what anyone has done to Les Pauls or to Ren's office, just like it doesn't matter what Henry has done that is spectacular. If any/all of those things were what mattered we wouldn't be having this conversation. If you did all these things in business and you have no idea what it means when bondholders organize, potential lapses in debts trigger other collections, and refusals to negotiate further credit without changes in leadership, you really need to switch kool-aids. Seriously. The current episode in the Acoustic Forum of a member in UK who was denied warranty coverage by a Gibson authorized repair facility in The Netherlands is a perfect example. Regardless of how the Technician's faux pas is resolved by management - there or in Bozeman - that story will take on a life of its own and be repeated a hundred times here by people who only post negative comments about Gibson. Kool Aid is in the eye of the eye of the beholder. And again, that has absolutely nothing to do with this. Sure, it's irritating to see internet repetition become fact. I correct people about guitar history all the time, especially people that weren't even born while I was living it. I get it completely. But this recent stuff, organizing bondholders, debts triggering other collections, demands of change at the top followed by threats of refusal to negotiate further, they aren't myth or legend, aren't coughed up from the past, and have nothing to do with whatever good works Henry and others have done at Gibson. And talking about it as realistically as possible is not wishing them failure. Gibson appears to be in trouble. There are valid reasons for that trouble that have been made public. Your beef is with Gibson, not with the people trying to discuss it with their tacit agreement. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 OK, points taken and understood, Rabs, but does any of that actually happen on a day-to-day basis in the real world? Or even on a year-by-year basis? Who decides, one day, to fundamentally change their regular guitar's set up? Who amongst us has arbitrarily decided to use much heavier or lighter strings all of a sudden? It just doesn't happen. Decide to choose one guitar for slide? OK. Raise the bridge. Job Done. Not picking a bunfight, Rabs, and with the very greatest respect I still cannot see the point of an adjustable nut. Not in the slightest. Pip. No fighting here :) Its not that... I agree that most people don't tend to change much even though ive seen plenty of people on here who all of a sudden realise they want 9s or 11s after years of playing 10s, it does happen.. But its the initial set up.. We all know that everyone likes it different, a lot of Gibsons have nut issues we have have seen that on here enough times.. Being able to adjust it to just how you want it when you first set the guitar up is enough of a reason I think.. It means that rather than taking it to a tech or luthier or learning how to cut and shape a nut all you need do is turn a screw.. It makes it much easier and means that people can set the nut up themselves which a lot of people don't know how to do. Cos remember they all have to be set up one way or another, either at Gibson or by the shop or by the user. It gives you a tad more control and im all up for that. The Plek process is meant to stop all that but I don't think it quite works 100% of the time and it cant factor in the neck changes that will happen down the line either. As I said, you can adjust a bridge for the same reasons, once you set it up it doesn't change much, but id still rather have that ability than having a set bridge like say on an acoustic. I think of them like locking tuners.. I have them on one guitar cos it came with them (2010 Standard).. When I use them I think, this is great, makes string changes much easier.. But its not enough to make me go out and change all my other guitars to locking tuners cos I also have no problem stringing them the normal way... Its not a big thing either way really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Nothing to do with intonation. But string height... Its simply that if you want to change the set up, for instance use much heavier or lighter stings, or want to say use it for slide or you just decide you want the strings lower or higher for any reason. Having a nut you can adjust the height of makes it really really easy to set it all up rather than having to re-cut or shape the nut... Nothing more than that, but because of that I think its a good idea. I have found the adjustable nut very useful creatively. That said, it took an age to set up exactly the way I wanted it. I experimented until I had the upper part of the fingerboard as the easier area to fret. That is where the sound is sweetest. Therefore that is where I solo most. It does mean that the nut is set unusually high, but it plays fine. Also, its possible to cut nut slots too deep. A luthier once admitted that he did this to my Deuce and that he had shimmed it up to correct it. Had the nut been adjustable, there would have been no problem. I wish I had an adjustable nut on all my guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 I have found the adjustable nut very useful creatively. That said, it took an age to set up exactly the way I wanted it. I experimented until I had the upper part of the fingerboard as the easier area to fret. That is where the sound is sweetest. Therefore that is where I solo most. It does mean that the nut is set unusually high, but it plays fine. Also, its possible to cut nut slots too deep. A luthier once admitted that he did this to my Deuce and that he had shimmed it up to correct it. Had the nut been adjustable, there would have been no problem. I wish I had an adjustable nut on all my guitars. Exactly.. What if you want to just try something like 12s or 8s (I know not many people do), it means you don't ever have to have the nut changed to accommodate that, all you do is turn the screw till it works how you want it... Maybe because we are all so used to having a fixed nut that people cant see the benefits.. Pippy was saying how often do people change their set up so drastically and generally id agree BUT if they had an adjustable nut they would be able to experiment and then change it back if they don't like it.. As I say, to me it means a bit more control which I think is better.. Certainly not essential.. but a nice thing to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 ...Lets have a guitar battle. Who ever ends up with the most frets left on his guitar wins... HHrrrmmmpppphhhhh ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Right! OK. I'm armed and ready!!! Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 One thing that strikes me as odd is who cares who the CEO is? I don't. It could be Melvin Lipschitz from Sheboygin for all the difference it makes. I just want a company that consistently makes great guitars here in the United States, listens to what the customers actually want, doesn't run it into the ground and who keeps the pricing at reasonable levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 I stand down. You win. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 They're still in trouble over the fretboard wood thing and that was totally self-inflicted. They're over there covering their ears and saying "Yamma yamma yamma" while they're putting counter tops on Customs and making excuses about it. I can't even buy a guitar from them 'cause they still have production problems having to do with fretboard wood problems across a large part of their line. There's not even many people on here buying new Gibsons. I don't have the slightest clue who runs Fender and that's the way I like it. I don't need to know what the guy looks like and I don't want to hear anything from the guy. You make the guitars and I buy them. And don't brand yourself as a scofflaw who's standing up to the man. It gets tired after five years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelT Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 HHrrrmmmpppphhhhh ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! Right! OK. I'm armed and ready!!! Pip. Holy crap. For when you need those dog whistle notes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 They're still in trouble over the fretboard wood thing and that was totally self-inflicted. They're over there covering their ears and saying "Yamma yamma yamma" while they're putting counter tops on Customs and making excuses about it. I can't even buy a guitar from them 'cause they still have production problems having to do with fretboard wood problems across a large part of their line. There's not even many people on here buying new Gibsons. I don't have the slightest clue who runs Fender and that's the way I like it. I don't need to know what the guy looks like and I don't want to hear anything from the guy. You make the guitars and I buy them. And don't brand yourself as a scofflaw who's standing up to the man. It gets tired after five years or so. Bill Schultz and Dan Smith are the two guys that saved Fender. Both passed away within the last ten years. You never heard about them, but they did the same(or more) as Henry at Gibson. To be fair, Fender is in a crapload of debt as well. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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