Henry J.. Its the retailers fault

[ksdaddy]

Plus - is the guitar market still expanding as it did in the 60s, or is it gradually shrinking?

 

I can't answer that except to say my brother was in garage bands in the 60s when everyone played. Kay and Harmony couldn't keep up, ever. I was in high school in the 70s and out of a graduating class of 239, I'm betting there MIGHT have been maybe 10 of us that played at all. When I had my guitar shop in the 80s it was wild. Every kid wanted to dive bomb a Floyd, whether they knew what a C chord looked like or not. In the 90s there were zillions of Eddie striped plywood Korean Strat at yard sales, all missing locking nut parts and output jacks twisted off. In 2018 my local music store has the same tired crap week after week.

 

It waxes and wanes but I never see the pattern until a few years after the fact.

[Rabs]

I can't answer that except to say my brother was in garage bands in the 60s when everyone played. Kay and Harmony couldn't keep up, ever. I was in high school in the 70s and out of a graduating class of 239, I'm betting there MIGHT have been maybe 10 of us that played at all. When I had my guitar shop in the 80s it was wild. Every kid wanted to dive bomb a Floyd, whether they knew what a C chord looked like or not. In the 90s there were zillions of Eddie striped plywood Korean Strat at yard sales, all missing locking nut parts and output jacks twisted off. In 2018 my local music store has the same tired crap week after week.

 

It waxes and wanes but I never see the pattern until a few years after the fact.

I think the market is fairly stable.. The issue is some companies are treating it (as has been mentioned) like the mobile phone or computer industry where you kind of have to upgrade after a while and the trends change every few months for technology that actually works better and does more.. The guitar market is not that.. I mean hell, theres still electric guitars around from the day they were conceived.. People don't throw away guitars like they do an old mobile..

 

If they would stop flooding the market and use a more appropriate business model I don't think it would be in the position it is right now.. Whats worse is that ONLY huge shops can afford to sell them so they are cutting off a huge section of the market right there.. Its just silliness or just pure greed. Its certainly not working as a business model how ever much they may want it too.

[Twang Gang]

I don't hear him really slamming the retailers so much in this interview. He states that Brick and Mortar stores are afraid of on-line sales and that is probably true. I'm not sure all the good music stores are in the pornographic neighborhoods (what the hell is a pornographic neighborhood anyway?) but I haven't been to a lot of big city music stores. I agree that it's tough for the small Mom and Pop store to make a go of it, but that is true in many product segments - not just guitars.

 

I think Gibson is doing what they can to serve a wide range of customers. They still make the traditional non-weight relieved models that some people want, and they make more modern models with weight relief and coil taps and robot tuners if that is what you want. They offer some nice LPs in the tribute and studio lines that can be had for around $1000. And the sky is limit on how much you can spend if you want a Custom Shop model. If they are all too expensive for a given consumer he can go the Epiphone route.

 

You have to remember that some wood is getting scarce - thus the price goes up. And don't forget about inflation. In 1970 I bought a used LP Goldtop for $300. In 2017 I bought a new standard for about $2500, so a little less than 10 times the price. In 1972 I bought a brand new car for $2600, what's the cheapest brand new car cost today? About $26,000 or 10 times the price. It's not that everything costs 10 times as much, it's that the dollar is only worth about 10 cents compared to what it used to be.

 

As to quality I have seen some unacceptable products on this forum. But my personal experience has been excellent. In the past 6 years I have bought 5 Gibson guitars and they were all perfect from a quality standpoint.

 

Remember too that Gibson is a privately held company, not beholden to stockholders, and not just chasing an incremental increase in sales each quarter. Henry can do whatever he wants - he's taking the risk, he gets to make the decisions.

[rct]

Babbling excuses in order to sound super smarter than every body else in the room.

 

Can you guess how long it's been since he's actually been to a music store? No wonder they're having problems.

 

rct

[Larsongs]

I live in Southern California & I can't think of one Music Store from San Diego to L.A. that is in a Porn district? There may be some but I haven't seen them & I've been to Dozens of Music Stores over the past years.

 

I'm curious how many Kids bought Robo Guitars & are demanding more?

 

Gibson does build some great Guitars. They also build some not so great Guitars. The recent USA Guitar QC leaves a lot to be desired. They aren't alone, Fender is right there with them in that regard.

 

That said, their foreign Makers seem to a pretty fair job of making good quality Guitars. Particularly Epiphone & Squier Classic Vibe Series Guitars. The USA Manufacturers could learn a thing or two from them.

 

The consistantly best quality Guitars I'm seeing in 2018 are Gretsch & Rickenbacker.

 

Lars

['Scales]

I live in Southern California & I can't think of one Music Store from San Diego to L.A. that is in a Porn district? There may be some but I haven't seen them & I've been to Dozens of Music Stores over the past years.

 

man I was so sure you were going to say...'and I've been to dozens of porn districts over the past years'.

 

"Carmelo, get me Big Bill here by 6:30"

[charlie brown]

Well, it's been said, that the "core" business "Gibson Guitars" is doing well! It's all the other business acquisitions,

that have caused the "debt" problem. BUT, who did the purchasing of those other businesses, and then just let them languish

and/or die?!! Henry, right? He needs to Go, before he creates the exact situation, that he bought Gibson for, in the first

place...IF it's not already "too late?" I suspect it is, although I DO think Gibson Guitars WILL survive, maybe even prosper

a lot more, without King Henry! But, that's only my speculation. And, since I don't know anything more, than I've either

experienced, with their products, and how their so called "business model," relates to, and effects said instruments, speculation

is all I can do, based on what I've read, as well. But, as one who DOES Love "Gibson" guitars, contrary to how I might seem,

I really DO hope they'll get this all sorted out, and SOON!

 

Time will tell all, one way or another, no doubt.

 

 

CB

[charlie brown]

As to "All the Good music stores being in the "Porn" district?" PFFFFFF! He obviously hasn't been out of the office,

in decades, to say such a ridiculous thing. NONE of the stores I've ever been to, are even close to the "Porn" districts,

even when I lived in, and around the big city of Los Angeles, for 30 years. And, all kinds of women, and their children

were seen in all the stores I went to! So...??? Maybe Henry's "idea" is, that ONLY the stores IN the "Porn" district,

are any good? LOL

 

 

CB

[zigzag]

The violin hasn't changed in almost 500 years...

 

Of course, I've not seen too many stores devoted to violins.

[SteveFord]

I suspect that 17 pages of acoustic guitars and 36 pages of electric guitars for 2018 may be part of their problem.

Diversity is all well and good but that's just stupid.

 

On a side note, I'm bummed: my local authorized Gibson retailers are in little strip malls. No strippers, no porn, not even a used book store to buy vintage smut, just a Dollar Store or a place to buy frozen yogurt.

I guess you can buy condoms and get a prescription filled at a CVS, there's your sex, drugs and rock and roll. No wonder guitar sales are floundering.

[kaicho8888]

Henry J should just stick to Gibson guitar business! I understand this business is the "money maker".

Looks like he wanted to create a group of subsidiaries and borrowed more than his expected proforma... now he's got to dump his non-performing subsidiaries. More than likely not enough to service the loans. Nobody knows exactly what the situation is like in the Gibson Brand; and I'm just guessing, he will have to default part or the whole of his ownership stake.

It's also possible, he could find a group to float him.

I know a large company that was heading to BK (but had an iconic name) was reorganized with other more financially solid companies to form a more healthy company under the banner of the original iconic name.

[LarryUK]

After going to the guitar show this week. There are guitars in all price brackets that are far superior to Gibson. But they just rest on an old model. If they didn't have the Les Paul they wouldn't exist. But the Maybach and Eastman Les Paul copies show that a good product can be made at the right price. I'm even thinking of having a Maybach. Watch the factory video. Made like Gibson used to do them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ViKRfXpvnU

[zigzag]

I didn't realize Henry uses pawn shops as authorized dealers.

 

Since this thread has taken a bit of a political turn, I'd just like to say that, even though businesses are thriving and rolling in record profits, the middle class still has little disposable income. The upper household income limit for the middle class is around $120,000 to $200,000/year (depending on where you live). Most people are still living paycheck to paycheck and need to prioritize their spending. My point is that Gibson couldn't make guitars fast enough if their prices dropped 25-30%.

[Dub-T-123]

Pardon me, might you direct me towards your town’s pornography district? I’m searching for a Les Paul

[fortyearspickn]

Babbling excuses in order to sound super smarter than every body else in the room.

 

Can you guess how long it's been since he's actually been to a music store? No wonder they're having problems.

 

rct

 

Can you point to the actual quote - a statement by Henry - in the article where he actually blames retailers for Gibson's financial problems?

I read it 3x and couldn't find it. Only the 'journalists' made-up headline - obviously meant to grab readers.

I actually came away believing he knows more about music stores than most of the Mom & Pops running them do.

The one I use to go to, that stocked 1 or 2 Gibson's (before the Oriental Onslaught in the 60s) went out of business because the owner was a violin guy who realized he needed to sell guitars to stay in business. Was put out of business by Sam Ash. Henry wasn't even on the scene yet.

This is probably the 10th thread on the Gibson Forums in the past 2 weeks. - apparently started to bash Henry directly and Gibson indirectly.

Ironically, many of the bashers freely admit they never have or would own a Gibson acoustic. Only buy electrics used. Are mad because he's closing a division that has nothing to do with his core business.

And, more ironically, many of the repeat offender bashers qualify their "Henry's an idiot, he should follow my advice...." with "I hope Gibson succeeds." Or "I hope this forum does't go away.".

Sort of like guys who only drive Fords hanging out on a BMW site to bash Beemers.

If you can't afford a Gibson, fine. Get something else. If you don't like their quality - fine, get something else. If you want to bash Gibson - do it on some other forum. So somewhere else.

Disagree? Don't think there's bias here? Go to the 3 page "Acoustic Considerations' thread here: 90% of the recommendations for a new guitar purchase - are Martin, Taylor and Guild.

Sure 'Diversity' is like motherhood and apple pie. But not when it's taken to the lengths where the guy who pulled Gibson out of bankruptcy and produces fine instruments is bashed regularly.

Sure - the company (marketing, et al) float some ideas some people don't like. And a few ideas most people don't like like Robo-tuners. (but some do). And most don't like neon pink J45s (but some do). And we get to hear about them every time one of us starts another one of these "Pile On Henry" threads.

[kidblast]

Blaming this all on Henry J is utterly impracticable. He's made the decisions at the time, he thought would improve the companies bottom line. If he, and those he worked with to implement the decisions, because you can be sure he didn't dream all this sh=t up alone, thought they would lead to disaster, those moves would have never occurred.

 

I've been working for IT companies all my working life, is there really any other industry that's been as heavily impacted by these shifts in profit margins as Technology companies?

 

Business is a gamble just like anything else. There's risks, returns on investments, and unforeseeable events that one cannot plan for that impact everything that was done. If they knew these acquisitions made would turn out a liability, they'd not have made these moves.

 

All the major industry lead companies go thru this, they all have their DARK days. It's now Gibson's turn.

 

What I do find a bit distasteful are some of the youtube prophets (a$$hats) piling on, and some have already proclaimed "Gibson has just filed bankruptcy" when in fact, as of yesterday when I looked, this has NOT happened. people, it's business as usual. Just because it's Gibson, doesn't mean it doesn't work the same way.. really.. relax.....

[rct]

Can you point to the actual quote - a statement by Henry - in the article where he actually blames retailers for Gibson's financial problems?

I read it 3x and couldn't find it. Only the 'journalists' made-up headline - obviously meant to grab readers.

I actually came away believing he knows more about music stores than most of the Mom & Pops running them do.

The one I use to go to, that stocked 1 or 2 Gibson's (before the Oriental Onslaught in the 60s) went out of business because the owner was a violin guy who realized he needed to sell guitars to stay in business. Was put out of business by Sam Ash. Henry wasn't even on the scene yet.

This is probably the 10th thread on the Gibson Forums in the past 2 weeks. - apparently started to bash Henry directly and Gibson indirectly.

Ironically, many of the bashers freely admit they never have or would own a Gibson acoustic. Only buy electrics used. Are mad because he's closing a division that has nothing to do with his core business.

And, more ironically, many of the repeat offender bashers qualify their "Henry's an idiot, he should follow my advice...." with "I hope Gibson succeeds." Or "I hope this forum does't go away.".

Sort of like guys who only drive Fords hanging out on a BMW site to bash Beemers.

If you can't afford a Gibson, fine. Get something else. If you don't like their quality - fine, get something else. If you want to bash Gibson - do it on some other forum. So somewhere else.

Disagree? Don't think there's bias here? Go to the 3 page "Acoustic Considerations' thread here: 90% of the recommendations for a new guitar purchase - are Martin, Taylor and Guild.

Sure 'Diversity' is like motherhood and apple pie. But not when it's taken to the lengths where the guy who pulled Gibson out of bankruptcy and produces fine instruments is bashed regularly.

Sure - the company (marketing, et al) float some ideas some people don't like. And a few ideas most people don't like like Robo-tuners. (but some do). And most don't like neon pink J45s (but some do). And we get to hear about them every time one of us starts another one of these "Pile On Henry" threads.

 

Start your own forum. Tell people what they can and can't say. Forbid the implication and context parts of written communication. Prevent people from reading between any lines. Only allow direct, admitted quotes. Inform users of your forum that anything said that is at all in any sort of negative light will be treated as bashing, jealousy, and anti-subject matter bias. Have your users keep in mind that anything remotely close to a sense of humor will not be tolerated. And above all, your forum will be just like America. If you don't like how we do things you can just leave.

 

You will be much happier.

 

rct

[Rabs]

Can you point to the actual quote - a statement by Henry - in the article where he actually blames retailers for Gibson's financial problems?

I read it 3x and couldn't find it. Only the 'journalists' made-up headline - obviously meant to grab readers.

I actually came away believing he knows more about music stores than most of the Mom & Pops running them do.

The one I use to go to, that stocked 1 or 2 Gibson's (before the Oriental Onslaught in the 60s) went out of business because the owner was a violin guy who realized he needed to sell guitars to stay in business. Was put out of business by Sam Ash. Henry wasn't even on the scene yet.

This is probably the 10th thread on the Gibson Forums in the past 2 weeks. - apparently started to bash Henry directly and Gibson indirectly.

Ironically, many of the bashers freely admit they never have or would own a Gibson acoustic. Only buy electrics used. Are mad because he's closing a division that has nothing to do with his core business.

And, more ironically, many of the repeat offender bashers qualify their "Henry's an idiot, he should follow my advice...." with "I hope Gibson succeeds." Or "I hope this forum does't go away.".

Sort of like guys who only drive Fords hanging out on a BMW site to bash Beemers.

If you can't afford a Gibson, fine. Get something else. If you don't like their quality - fine, get something else. If you want to bash Gibson - do it on some other forum. So somewhere else.

Disagree? Don't think there's bias here? Go to the 3 page "Acoustic Considerations' thread here: 90% of the recommendations for a new guitar purchase - are Martin, Taylor and Guild.

Sure 'Diversity' is like motherhood and apple pie. But not when it's taken to the lengths where the guy who pulled Gibson out of bankruptcy and produces fine instruments is bashed regularly.

Sure - the company (marketing, et al) float some ideas some people don't like. And a few ideas most people don't like like Robo-tuners. (but some do). And most don't like neon pink J45s (but some do). And we get to hear about them every time one of us starts another one of these "Pile On Henry" threads.

Well this is the thing he doesn't quite say it directly but reading between the lines..

 

He says that guitar shops arnt cool or trendy and the staff arnt approachable so because of that they think they are loosing customers. Thus seeming to place more blame on the shops than on his and his staffs own business decisions.

 

But what about all the other reasons why Gibson has found themselves in this situation? He doesn't mention the strict rules that shops have to follow in order just to be able to sell a Gibson.. In doing that they have actually lost a lot of customers by ignoring the smaller shops that cant afford the huge amount of money needed to be a Gibson dealer.. These smaller shops DO often give that more personal service that hes talking about.

 

He also talks about how online is making retailers nervous... Yet he quite happily put Gibson on Amazon thus only helping the price war between online and real shops. Let alone the stupid year on year new release method... With that method of doing things all that happens is people think, ohh the new model is coming soon, so I will wait till they discount last years model... He wants people to buy a new guitar every year and parents to spend $2500 on a LP Standard for their kids?(the bit where hes talking about attracting mom and dad rather than just musicians).. Its just bonkers thinking as far as I am concerned.

 

He was the one who must have had the final say on buying all those electronic companies which now have all gone quite.. They should have remained with their core business, yes its a risk and you need to take certain risks in business but its failed.. I would have said for instance rather than spending all that money trying to diversify, Gibson would have been much better off making amps again.. It totally fits with what they do....

 

Then what about the failed $40 million they spent (and probably more) on an auto tuning system that wasn't even perfected when they released it?

 

Then he goes on to moan about the "purists" and because they have catered to them they have lost the opportunity to sell more modern guitars to new players who demand new things every year. What nonsense.. They don't do that? what about the auto tuners they have been trying to flog since 2014? The HP series with new updated designs (like the new carved neck heal).. Guess what.. They have been doing that for several years meaning they need TWO of each model in the shops putting yet more strain on the retailers as they only have a certain amount of wall space.. Its clearly not worked yet it seems to be everyone elses fault but his. What about the Firebird X (and others like the Dark Fire)? Total utter failure. So actually they have tried to sell modern guitars but it hasn't worked.

 

Even some of Henrys past comments about the company lead me to believe that they just totally went wrong.. When they changed the name from Gibson Guitar to Gibson Brands... I believe in one interview he said something like we no longer see ourselves as a Guitar company but a Lifestyle company.. He tried to make Gibson in to a brand like Apple... Whos fault is that then? Ours, the retailers or Gibsons?

 

As for being able to talk about it on here.. The reason most of us are here is we love our Gibsons... so what we aren't ever allowed to say how we feel about it.. or talk about other guitar related products? There would be no point to the forum if we weren't even allowed to do that?

 

And I don't say any of this because I hate... I really don't. I love my Gibsons and the history of the company and what they have done in the music world.. I don't know Henry and wouldnt say anything about who he is and its none of my business what he does with the company.. But I say this out of love for Gibson and what that word means to me. I worry what will happen because of all of this and only really want good things for their future and for the name to continue. But I still have to be honest about what I see going on.

[merciful-evans]

The violin hasn't changed in almost 500 years...

 

Of course, I've not seen too many stores devoted to violins.

 

Sorry zigzag, that is not true. Furthermore, some violin innovations appear more advanced than guitars of today.

 

Here is a 5 string carbon fiber model.

https://electricviolinlutherie.com/products/5-string-octave-carbon-fiber-electric-violin

 

Here is the FiddleForum. I was a member for about a year. They use all manner of weird looking violins for 'shred'.

http://www.fiddleforum.com/fiddleforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3fv18tgk4orslnra079oml3960&action=forum

Here is 'shredder' Alyson Montez with a Woods Viper

 

Beauchamp put his magnetic pickup on a production solidbody electric violin in the 30s, not long after the guitar.

 

But traditional violinists (classical & folk) are like everybody here. For example, putting geared tuners on a fiddle is seen as heresy. Here, geared tuners are correct, but robots are heresy.

 

I dont think any musical instrument ever reaches perfection, because new materials & tech are always providing new possibilities.

[Mr. Gibson]

1519672153[/url]' post='1919965']

Well, not ALL "Brick & Mortar" stores are higher, than the Big Box, or Warehouse stores. My dealer, for well over 30

years, is a family owned "Brick & Mortar" store, and it's consistently less expensive, than any of the Warehouse/on line,

stores, even with sales tax. Especially, on Gibson/Epiphone products! So, it's more a case by case basis, regarding

Brick & Mortar, vs. On-line or Warehouse type stores. My dealer also does a brisk on-line business, as well. So, if

the purchase is shipped out of state, there's no sales tax.

 

 

CB

 

Yes I'm sure not all brick and mortar stores are higher,I can only say what's going on here. I'm sure that someday we will be paying sales tax on our online purchases,it's already starting. As far as what Gibson should do now, I don't have a clue.

[SHO]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet but... I was throughly convinced about ten years ago or so that there is no one with any influence or power left at Gibson that is even remotely in touch with the guitar market or their own fan base.

 

I'm not talking about the prices, robot tuners, weird colours and ugly designs or poor QC. I'm talking about those official Hendrix branded strat copies that seemingly got pulled of the market at the last minute.

 

Or aren't we allowed to talk about those?

[badbluesplayer]

Can you point to the actual quote - a statement by Henry - in the article where he actually blames retailers for Gibson's financial problems?

I read it 3x and couldn't find it. Only the 'journalists' made-up headline - obviously meant to grab readers.

I actually came away believing he knows more about music stores than most of the Mom & Pops running them do.

The one I use to go to, that stocked 1 or 2 Gibson's (before the Oriental Onslaught in the 60s) went out of business because the owner was a violin guy who realized he needed to sell guitars to stay in business. Was put out of business by Sam Ash. Henry wasn't even on the scene yet.

This is probably the 10th thread on the Gibson Forums in the past 2 weeks. - apparently started to bash Henry directly and Gibson indirectly.

Ironically, many of the bashers freely admit they never have or would own a Gibson acoustic. Only buy electrics used. Are mad because he's closing a division that has nothing to do with his core business.

And, more ironically, many of the repeat offender bashers qualify their "Henry's an idiot, he should follow my advice...." with "I hope Gibson succeeds." Or "I hope this forum does't go away.".

Sort of like guys who only drive Fords hanging out on a BMW site to bash Beemers.

If you can't afford a Gibson, fine. Get something else. If you don't like their quality - fine, get something else. If you want to bash Gibson - do it on some other forum. So somewhere else.

Disagree? Don't think there's bias here? Go to the 3 page "Acoustic Considerations' thread here: 90% of the recommendations for a new guitar purchase - are Martin, Taylor and Guild.

Sure 'Diversity' is like motherhood and apple pie. But not when it's taken to the lengths where the guy who pulled Gibson out of bankruptcy and produces fine instruments is bashed regularly.

Sure - the company (marketing, et al) float some ideas some people don't like. And a few ideas most people don't like like Robo-tuners. (but some do). And most don't like neon pink J45s (but some do). And we get to hear about them every time one of us starts another one of these "Pile On Henry" threads.

 

I ponied up my money to be on this forum. Many times over. And I have an MBA too, boss. But he's been out of the house for twenty years.

 

Hey, wasn't it us engineers teaching you MBA's how to do schoolboy widget/profit/productivity math when you were a graduate students and we were sophomores and had never studied the math until we explained it to you guys? Or maybe that was somebody else.

[pippy]

Of course, I've not seen too many stores devoted to violins...

Nor have I. It's a problem for sure. I'd have to travel almost 20 miles to get to my nearest one.

Nice place, though!

 

https://craigviolins.com/

 

Pip.

[Pin]

Here is 'shredder' Alyson Montez with a Woods Viper

 

 

I found myself more interested in her legs and skirt to be honest.

 

I presume that makes me a sexist pig...which would not be far from the truth.

['Scales]

Its one of many industries that has struggled since the financial wake up call 10 years ago in a world rapidly changing but hard to pick just where to invest and which horses to back. So it looks like a lot of flailing around on 'hit and hope' activities, rather than betting the farm on one clear direction. Very tricky times for a CEO I'd say. He turns 65 this weekend and has more resilience than me - I'd be raising a glass in sincere heartfelt gratitude to Slash and then going fishing.