filipem Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Hi everyone, I found this forum in hope of getting some advice on a vintage Gibson J45. I want to know if it's worth restoring and repairing it. It's definitely seen better days I've attached pictures of the guitar. I've tried to highlight some of the problem area's the but some of the faults are difficult to see in the pictures. Essentially here is a short list of the problems -The wood on sides of the body is spilting in some spots. -No picture but the neck is twisted -Some wear on the frets overall it will need a dressing and crowning at the minimum -The neck heel is separating from the body -Overall body condition is rough shape several dents and scratches all over the guitar. The case remarkably is in very good condition. If it worth going through the trouble to fully restore this guitar or am I better off buying another one. Also what roughly would be the value of the guitar given the state that it is right now? I really appreciate the advice. Thanks, Fil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) I'll go first... not really knowledgeable regarding the cost or difficulty of bringing it back - but it looks fine to me for a 75 year old instrument made of wood and glue. Since you seem to have a handle on things like twisted necks and fret crowning - you probably already know this is 'valuable' . Whether to you, or to someone else. I think it was Will Rogers who told people to "Buy Land. They're not making it anymore." The majority of the wear is cosmetic. Some people prize vintage guitars that look like they've been well used. Like antiques - you are always warned not to strip and re-finish it. You state 'should I buy another one... don't know if you mean to replace it or instead of buying this one .... BUT - If this is yours - Congratulations! Oh, and WELCOME ! Edited October 4, 2020 by fortyearspickn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I'll add that the case is likely from a later period. My guess is that it's from the 60's. Also the bridge looks like a slightly oversized replacement. What is the condition of the bridge plate and bracing? I see nothing serious that can't be fixed. Cool guitar! Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Is there an FON on the neck block? No matter though. Whether it be a 1945 or 1946 if it were me, it would be worth every penny you would have to put into the guitar to have it fixed up. And yes, I have been there so am talking from experience. As noted the bridge looks to be a replacement and case the type Gibson started using in 1961. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG4927 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Why don't you just tell us what the asking price is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filipem Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 56 minutes ago, JWG4927 said: Why don't you just tell us what the asking price is. I'm asking for a friend the guitar is his father's who is the orginal owner. 2 hours ago, zombywoof said: Is there an FON on the neck block? No matter though. Whether it be a 1945 or 1946 if it were me, it would be worth every penny you would have to put into the guitar to have it fixed up. And yes, I have been there so am talking from experience. As noted the bridge looks to be a replacement and case the type Gibson started using in 1961. No FON on the neck block. The owner is not sure if he wants to keep it and get it fixed up or sell it. 2 hours ago, Lars68 said: I'll add that the case is likely from a later period. My guess is that it's from the 60's. Also the bridge looks like a slightly oversized replacement. What is the condition of the bridge plate and bracing? I see nothing serious that can't be fixed. Cool guitar! Lars Thanks the bridge plate and bracing when I looked at it was in good condition nothing stuck out as unusual or damaged. Thanks for information about the case. 2 hours ago, fortyearspickn said: I'll go first... not really knowledgeable regarding the cost or difficulty of bringing it back - but it looks fine to me for a 75 year old instrument made of wood and glue. Since you seem to have a handle on things like twisted necks and fret crowning - you probably already know this is 'valuable' . Whether to you, or to someone else. I think it was Will Rogers who told people to "Buy Land. They're not making it anymore." The majority of the wear is cosmetic. Some people prize vintage guitars that look like they've been well used. Like antiques - you are always warned not to strip and re-finish it. You state 'should I buy another one... don't know if you mean to replace it or instead of buying this one .... BUT - If this is yours - Congratulations! Oh, and WELCOME ! Thanks for the welcome. I do know the guitar has some value what that is I'm not sure. I'm more familiar with gibson electrics. I'm asking about the guitar for a friend. His father is the orginal owner of the guitar. His father is in his 90's now and it's been passed down to his son who is not sure what to do with it. I looked around on reverb but I'm seeing pricing from $1600 all the way to north of 20k Canadian. Obviously there must be differences but my knowledge on vintage acoustics is next to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Okey, I'll give the value a shot. As is without repairs, $4500, plus or minus a few hundred. In solid repaired condition, $6500, but what do I know 😳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Where you located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75 Hummingbird Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Looking like a 1946 ...early 47 ...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 A lovely 1946 J-45, with replaced bridge and tuners, that is well worth some luthier's attention. Alas, I do not offer evaluations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filipem Posted October 5, 2020 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holiday Hoser Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 I got a beater like this at a pawn shop for 850 but alas not a D45 and mine I think is FUBAR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Ignore some of the more light-hearted responses here. Folks mean well, but until you have spent time on the forum, some responses may be a bit off-putting. By that logo, conventional wisdom says 1946. As has been pointed out, the tuners are non-original Grover Sta-Tite, which are common replacement for the originals. The bridge is definitely a replacement, and is not period-correct. Nothing shown in the pictures is an obvious major issue, but the guitar would require proper inspection by a repair person knowledgeable about vintage Gibsons. The top interests me, as the wood grain looks more like mahogany than spruce. Mahogany was sometimes used for tops during WW2, but I have not seen it on a post-war guitar. It may just be the lighting that makes it look like mahogany. The rosette around the soundhole is atypical of a J-45 from this period, which would more typically be a simpler white/black/white combination. The fancier one on this guitar is more typical of the fancier Southern Jumbo, but Gibson was probably using up a lot of war-period material when this guitar was built. The sapwood in the fretboard also suggests they were using up remnants of wood. You do not "restore" a guitar like this, as much of the vintage character would be lost. You repair it as necessary to make it playable and to ensure longevity. The value can only be determined after the cost of repairs is known. It is a very nice guitar, in any case, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, j45nick said: Ignore some of the more light-hearted responses here. Folks mean well, but until you have spent time on the forum, some responses may be a bit off-putting. By that logo, conventional wisdom says 1946. The rosette around the soundhole is atypical of a J-45 from this period, which would more typically be a simpler white/black/white combination. The fancier one on this guitar is more typical of the fancier Southern Jumbo, but Gibson was probably using up a lot of war-period material when this guitar was built. The sapwood in the fretboard also suggests they were using up remnants of wood. My '42 J50 has a seven ply rosette although it lacks the outer ring you see on early J45s. When did Gibson shift to the simpler purfling? Edited October 5, 2020 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, zombywoof said: My '42 J50 has a seven ply rosette although it lacks the outer ring you see on early J45s. When did Gibson shift to the simpler purfling? I'm not sure, and I could be wrong on what was used in 1946. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Looking at that top again, it looks more and more like mahogany. The areas where the finish is worn off around the soundhole would normally be near-white if it were spruce, and the worn areas on this top appear to be darker. The grain, including the striping, looks very much like mahogany. Looking at the Banner registry, several J-45s are listed as having mahogany tops in virtually every banner year, so this could very well be a left-over top, particularly if the guitar is late1945 or early 1946. The replacement bridge is much later--drop-in saddle rather than slot-through--and this belly-down style of bridge would totally cover the footprint of the original rectangular bridge, which would be roughly1" (25.4mm) by 6" (152mm). Do not let anyone touch this guitar except someone with a lot of experience with vintage Gibsons. They could easily do more harm than good, both technically and in terms of value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, zombywoof said: My '42 J50 has a seven ply rosette although it lacks the outer ring you see on early J45s. When did Gibson shift to the simpler purfling? Sometime in 1943. You can scroll down my Banner Registry and see the simpler rosette appear right around FON 916. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 34 minutes ago, j45nick said: Looking at that top again, it looks more and more like mahogany. The areas where the finish is worn off around the soundhole would normally be near-white if it were spruce, and the worn areas on this top appear to be darker. The grain, including the striping, looks very much like mahogany. Looking at the Banner registry, several J-45s are listed as having mahogany tops in virtually every banner year, so this could very well be a left-over top, particularly if the guitar is late1945 or early 1946. The replacement bridge is much later--drop-in saddle rather than slot-through--and this belly-down style of bridge would totally cover the footprint of the original rectangular bridge, which would be roughly1" (25.4mm) by 6" (152mm). Do not let anyone touch this guitar except someone with a lot of experience with vintage Gibsons. They could easily do more harm than good, both technically and in terms of value. Yes, like Nick said, don’t let anybody touch it that is not a fully renowned card carrying vintage Gibson acoustic guitar expert. Get some recommendations here for someone in your area. Phew. Is it ok to play? If it is playable, it is worth a lot. Painted blue, nothing. I was watching a re-run of a show called Wheeler Dealers and one partner bought an original VW Kombi splitscreen and showed the other partner repair guy and thought the car might get this and that done to it. But the expert said the car was too valuable as it was to do anything but repairs with original parts. And he mentioned the old Mark Twain quote: ‘Buy land - they don’t make it anymore!’ The old J45 is just like that! There are plenty of self proclaimed experts too, so get 3 recommendations and 7 quotes and think it over. BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 13 hours ago, filipem said: Canada Where in Canada? I have a fair amount of experience with luthiers in Nova Scotia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filipem Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 16 hours ago, j45nick said: Ignore some of the more light-hearted responses here. Folks mean well, but until you have spent time on the forum, some responses may be a bit off-putting. By that logo, conventional wisdom says 1946. As has been pointed out, the tuners are non-original Grover Sta-Tite, which are common replacement for the originals. The bridge is definitely a replacement, and is not period-correct. Nothing shown in the pictures is an obvious major issue, but the guitar would require proper inspection by a repair person knowledgeable about vintage Gibsons. The top interests me, as the wood grain looks more like mahogany than spruce. Mahogany was sometimes used for tops during WW2, but I have not seen it on a post-war guitar. It may just be the lighting that makes it look like mahogany. The rosette around the soundhole is atypical of a J-45 from this period, which would more typically be a simpler white/black/white combination. The fancier one on this guitar is more typical of the fancier Southern Jumbo, but Gibson was probably using up a lot of war-period material when this guitar was built. The sapwood in the fretboard also suggests they were using up remnants of wood. You do not "restore" a guitar like this, as much of the vintage character would be lost. You repair it as necessary to make it playable and to ensure longevity. The value can only be determined after the cost of repairs is known. It is a very nice guitar, in any case, LOL thanks for heads up it's my first time here but I've been on other forums for years I know the drill. Thanks for your response I believe the top is mahogany to me as well definitely not spruce. 14 hours ago, j45nick said: Looking at that top again, it looks more and more like mahogany. The areas where the finish is worn off around the soundhole would normally be near-white if it were spruce, and the worn areas on this top appear to be darker. The grain, including the striping, looks very much like mahogany. Looking at the Banner registry, several J-45s are listed as having mahogany tops in virtually every banner year, so this could very well be a left-over top, particularly if the guitar is late1945 or early 1946. The replacement bridge is much later--drop-in saddle rather than slot-through--and this belly-down style of bridge would totally cover the footprint of the original rectangular bridge, which would be roughly1" (25.4mm) by 6" (152mm). Do not let anyone touch this guitar except someone with a lot of experience with vintage Gibsons. They could easily do more harm than good, both technically and in terms of value. thanks for the information. As i mentioned the guitar is not mine but a friends. I gave him the same advice about seeking out a reputable Luthier about regarding the repairs. 13 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Yes, like Nick said, don’t let anybody touch it that is not a fully renowned card carrying vintage Gibson acoustic guitar expert. Get some recommendations here for someone in your area. Phew. Is it ok to play? If it is playable, it is worth a lot. Painted blue, nothing. I was watching a re-run of a show called Wheeler Dealers and one partner bought an original VW Kombi splitscreen and showed the other partner repair guy and thought the car might get this and that done to it. But the expert said the car was too valuable as it was to do anything but repairs with original parts. And he mentioned the old Mark Twain quote: ‘Buy land - they don’t make it anymore!’ The old J45 is just like that! There are plenty of self proclaimed experts too, so get 3 recommendations and 7 quotes and think it over. BluesKing777. I didn't play it. The strings on it looked really old I didn't want to try to tune it in fear of snapping a string, that and coupled with the fact that the neck heel is separating from the body gave me reservations about playing it. I was shown the guitar and took a quick look over, took some pictures and put it back in the case. To be honest I had no idea of how rare and valuable it is (still don't) and I didn't want to mess around with much. 12 hours ago, tpbiii said: Where in Canada? I have a fair amount of experience with luthiers in Nova Scotia. I'm located in Ontario in the GTA area. Anyone know of a good luthier in the area that knows their way around vintage acoustics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 36 minutes ago, filipem said: To be honest I had no idea of how rare and valuable it is (still don't) and I didn't want to mess around with much. When I bought my 1937 Gibson L-0 which looks like a box of splinters, I had to really impress upon friends and relatives that the guitar was going to stay that way, please! I just had a thought of the father in law so proud of refinishing the old table he gave us (we liked it a bit shabby - shabby chic!), that I imagined coming home to find he had come over and give it a coat of something to make it look a bit better and more respectable. I-I-Yi- I- Yi. But the old L-0 was half ruined by previous owners and the J45 above is perfect! Just needs a tweak! BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle fester Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 I can't add anything technically, but the pieces of advice I'd latch onto is (1) it's definitely worth repairing (2) find a trusted luthier w/ Gibson experience to do it, and give them the time and pay to do it right, it will be worth it. If you go this route, this will be a phenomenal guitar. my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Interesting coloration on the fretboard - the lighter shading on the 6 frets above the sound hole. I assume it's rosewood? I've seen small streaks, not that light, before but nothing like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 27 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said: Interesting coloration on the fretboard - the lighter shading on the 6 frets above the sound hole. I assume it's rosewood? I've seen small streaks, not that light, before but nothing like this one. The sapwood of Brazilian rosewood is often near-white. When rosewood was plentiful, that piece might not have been used for a fretboard, but at the end of ww2, Gibson was probably using whatever was on hand. Some of the banner guitars had red gum fretboards, but the ones I have seen with red gum fretboards are pretty uniform in color. On modern guitars built using Brazilian, there is often a lot of wild grain and white sapwood. The mahogany top reinforces the idea of using what was on hand at the time to build the guitar, but that's part of the charm of Gibsons from this period. I like this guitar a lot. If it were mine, I'd be sorely tempted to go back to the original bridge configuration and tuners. Other than that, it looks pretty original and is not beat up, even if it may need significant structural repairs that we can't see in the photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75 Hummingbird Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Folkway Music in Waterloo On . would be a great place to take the guitar for a check up. Twelfth Fret in Toronto would be trustworthy as well . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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