Silly question about "opening up"?

[generaldreedle]

So I've read about opening up with guitars etc and wanted to know what the process is for that- how and why does it happen?  Also in what way does it open up?  The reason why I'm asking is that I've had my Southern Jumbo for about four years now and the tone seems to have changed- I've always liked the guitar but sometimes it was a struggle to find the right strings etc., But now the tone is just uniformly deeper and richer no matter what, not as choked.  Does this make sense in terms of opening up? 

[Sgt. Pepper]

The guitar's tone will start to change due to the top of the guitar being vibrated when played. Guitar makers try to speed up the process by baking the top.

[dhanners623]

I'm admittedly no expert, but in my experience, I would posit that it has to do with the top becoming more flexible over time, i.e., the more it is played.

I also want to recall some discussion among violinists that the aging of the varnish has a beneficial impact on sound. No idea if the same is true with guitars.

[peter l]

There’s also a belief that as a guitar ages, the wood dries, making the top more flexible.

[zombywoof]

While I was lucky to pass a Chemistry test in high school I have always thought of it as  a matter of time and vibration,  As wood ages it loses some of  hemicellulose through evaporation while the vibration causes the wood grain to become more flexible.  Pretty much these two together are generally referred to as the grain loosening.   While I often hear exaggerated claims of guitars sounding dramatically different after a month or two this process generally takes many years for a guitar to take on that parched dryness and hair trigger response associated with old instruments.   While you can lock a guitar away in a closet and the wood will continue to dry in terms of vibration think of it like a rubber band.  When you play a guitar it is like stretching a rubber band.  But the rubber band will then return to its original shape once you stop stretching it.  But give it enough time and that rubber band will lose its elasticity and "loosen" up.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by zombywoof

[Larsongs]

Age + Play = Tone

[E-minor7]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:06 PM, generaldreedle said:

So I've read about opening up with guitars etc and wanted to know what the process is for that- how and why does it happen?  Also in what way does it open up?  The reason why I'm asking is that I've had my Southern Jumbo for about four years now and the tone seems to have changed- I've always liked the guitar but sometimes it was a struggle to find the right strings etc., But now the tone is just uniformly deeper and richer no matter what, not as choked.  Does this make sense in terms of opening up? 

Yes, you are on your way - wait till you pass the 8 year mark - then the thing will play.

[J185cat]

My limited observations with modern guitars is that this function is somewhat logarithmic. In other words the greatest gains are early but then the improvements continue on a slower rate. So decades are required to get to that 90 plus percent level.

[E-minor7]

5 hours ago, J185cat said:

My limited observations with modern guitars is that this function is somewhat logarithmic. In other words the greatest gains are early but then the improvements continue on a slower rate. So decades are required to get to that 90 plus percent level.

Interezting - but what is early in your acoustic calendar ?

[J185cat]

My definition of early has been anywhere from 3 to 6 years to hear a difference and then gradually until one day 15 years later you go “man this guitar sounds really really good.” Highly scientific! I had a 94 Centennial Jumbo that my wife gave me and that thing was tight and brittle sounding when she gave it to me. If not for being a gift I probably would not have kept it. But in three years it had changed greatly and today i am glad I kept it.  Had a koa J185 that i sold after about 5 years and I don’t think that guitar had”opened” up much at all. They all seem to have their own timeline. Would be interesting to hear what some other like DaveF who have opened lots of guitars has experienced. It’s all fun ain’t it?

Edited October 2, 2021 by J185cat

[BoSoxBiker]

All of my guitars were new when I got them. They varied from a few weeks old, straight from the factory to almost a year old sitting on a Music Villa wall(lucky me). Every one of them broke in differently. The D41 had a 3 week period after unboxing where the tone went from flat with no bottom end to well rounded. Biggest difference was just a week. I later saw this was not uncommon for that brand, per CFM himself on a Martin video.

D41, HB and so far with my J45, the big battle was containing the brightness. They each developed a better balance as time went on, and I think the J45 is showing hints of that as being likely. Remember that "nectar" thread? Mine was slow to arrive and is still slowly showing itself. The Dove was on a wall for a year. I've had it for 5 months, and it just now has started to really sing with full tone. My baked CS SJ-200 HC RW just got richer and richer as time went on.

I read folks here talk about 7-10 years or something like that. Knowing I've got more tonal development coming my way is pretty cool. More excuses to practice. 🙂

[E-minor7]

My definition of early has been anywhere from 3 to 6 years to hear a difference and then gradually until one day 15 years later you go “man this guitar sounds really really good.”              Highly scientific!

Sounds real to me.

I had a 94 Centennial Jumbo that my wife gave me and that thing was tight and brittle sounding when she gave it to me. If not for being a gift I probably would not have kept it. But in three years it had changed greatly and today i am glad I kept it.

Great story.

 Had a koa J185 that i sold after about 5 years and I don’t think that guitar had”opened” up much at all.

Assume the top was koa as well.  

They all seem to have their own timeline.

Agree - individual creatures, , , , though there are general templates to steer after. 

Would be interesting to hear what some other like DaveF who have opened lots of guitars has experienced.

Yea, the more that chimes in the better.

It’s all fun ain’t it?

It is - living with acoustics is an ever intriguing game. Not least when entering a shop with a wall full of splendid guitars for then to find out how much your own have grown. 

 

[Dave F]

19 minutes ago, E-minor7 said:

My definition of early has been anywhere from 3 to 6 years to hear a difference and then gradually until one day 15 years later you go “man this guitar sounds really really good.”              Highly scientific!

Sounds real to me.

I had a 94 Centennial Jumbo that my wife gave me and that thing was tight and brittle sounding when she gave it to me. If not for being a gift I probably would not have kept it. But in three years it had changed greatly and today i am glad I kept it.

Great story.

 Had a koa J185 that i sold after about 5 years and I don’t think that guitar had”opened” up much at all.

Assume the top was koa as well.  

They all seem to have their own timeline.

Agree - individual creatures, , , , though there are general templates to steer after. 

Would be interesting to hear what some other like DaveF who have opened lots of guitars has experienced.

Yea, the more that chimes in the better.

It’s all fun ain’t it?

It is - living with acoustics is an ever intriguing game. Not least when entering a shop with a wall full of splendid guitars for then to find out how much your own have grown. 

 

I had a 94 Centennial Jumbo that my wife gave me and that thing was tight and brittle sounding when she gave it to me. If not for being a gift I probably would not have kept it. But in three years it had changed greatly and today i am glad I kept it.

I had the same guitar. I bought it used at about 20 years old. When I got it, it sounded like it was stuffed with socks. That usually tells me it has too much moisture. I put some humidipaks in the case and closed it up and monitored  it for about a year. After a year it sounded good but not great. That's when Slim brought it to my attention that the 94 Centennials had lacquer sprayed on the the inside of the body. I had three models from that year. Believing they'll never get to the condition I want being sealed on both sides, I sold all three.

My belief is aging helps great sounding guitars sound better but it doesn't help mediocre sounding guitars sound great. But always keep in mind the moisture factor. I also believe that when guitars get old and go through the seasons for a number of years, they're affected less by the ambient conditions. I'm guessing once the sap in the wood crystallizes the wood is more stable.

The '42 LG1 I have is the best sounding guitar I have but these new aged tops are impressing me. My latest guitar is one of the '42 SJ Rosewood with the aged top and in my opinion it sounds like ones I've played from the 50's. I had a Martin with the aged top that sounded good but didn't sound vintage. It sounded more like a 30 year old guitar.

I have a Gibson custom L00 on order that will have the aged top that I'm anxious to try.

[generaldreedle]

Thanks for all the replies.  The Southern Jumbo now has become the one I reach for due to the changes.   

[BoSoxBiker]

To a side topic of getting a little extra something out of younger guitars, I've had some extremely good success using hybrid string gauges. A few examples with the thicker strings in bold font. A standard Light set for comparison leads off. I've tried some others that I did not list because I was not convinced they were an improvement.

• Standard Gibson Lights = 12-16-24-32-42-53
• DR Vertitas Bluegrass = 12-16-24-34-45-56  
• John Pearse BlueGrass = 12-16-24-35-45-56   (Hummingbird Standard and old SJ-200 Standard loved them)
• John Pearse New Mediums = 13-17-24-32-42-55  (80/20's on SJ-200 is favorite)
• Cleartone EQ Lights      =    12-16-26-33-43-53  (mixed bag, but big sounding)
• John Pearse Medium Light = 13-18-22-32-42-52 (not tried yet)
• La Bella (honorable mention) - There are a few odd hybrid sets even within "standard" sets. Ranged from undecided to loud without purpose.  

The big one for me was the New Mediums by John Pearse. It made sense as soon as I tried them. Take the two thinnest strings and beef them up a tiny bit. It adds a little thickness to the two lightest sounding strings. If your one of the folks that does not like weak sounding thin E-B strings, this is your ticket out, thought the 55-e string can be a bit much if you're dealing with already high nut slots.

The Bluegrass gauges worked well, too, with the three thickest strings a bit thicker. Overall balance of a strum was a but thicker sounding, but without being muddy.

None of them had a total effect on a guitar that happens when going from Lights to Mediums, but the EQs gave me a fit, but that nut was a little high anyhow. I've got another pack, but not re-tried yet. A slight raising of the tension can have a small effect on the strings' parallel positioning with the fret-board. I suspect this helped even the thinner strings sound better on the Bluegrass sets.

One added benefit to some of these hybrids is realized in the dry air of the Winter heating seasons. Sometimes one gets caught in between setups and Winter/Summer saddles where it does not quite need that extra height yet. The Hybrids will put a tiny bit more tension on the neck. Little amounts can and sometimes does matter.

[QuestionMark]

Thanks for sharing your positive finding  of the John Pearse New Mediums on your J-200.   So far in my use of them, I’ve only tried them on my small bodied Martin 00L 2XE, and the results have been great.  I have been so pleased with them that I plan on the JP New Mediums being my go to strings for that guitar.

 

QM aka “ Jazzman” Jeff

[generaldreedle]

2 hours ago, BoSoxBiker said:

To a side topic of getting a little extra something out of younger guitars, I've had some extremely good success using hybrid string gauges. A few examples with the thicker strings in bold font. A standard Light set for comparison leads off. I've tried some others that I did not list because I was not convinced they were an improvement.

• Standard Gibson Lights = 12-16-24-32-42-53
• DR Vertitas Bluegrass = 12-16-24-34-45-56  
• John Pearse BlueGrass = 12-16-24-35-45-56   (Hummingbird Standard and old SJ-200 Standard loved them)
• John Pearse New Mediums = 13-17-24-32-42-55  (80/20's on SJ-200 is favorite)
• Cleartone EQ Lights      =    12-16-26-33-43-53  (mixed bag, but big sounding)
• John Pearse Medium Light = 13-18-22-32-42-52 (not tried yet)
• La Bella (honorable mention) - There are a few odd hybrid sets even within "standard" sets. Ranged from undecided to loud without purpose.  

The big one for me was the New Mediums by John Pearse. It made sense as soon as I tried them. Take the two thinnest strings and beef them up a tiny bit. It adds a little thickness to the two lightest sounding strings. If your one of the folks that does not like weak sounding thin E-B strings, this is your ticket out, thought the 55-e string can be a bit much if you're dealing with already high nut slots.

The Bluegrass gauges worked well, too, with the three thickest strings a bit thicker. Overall balance of a strum was a but thicker sounding, but without being muddy.

None of them had a total effect on a guitar that happens when going from Lights to Mediums, but the EQs gave me a fit, but that nut was a little high anyhow. I've got another pack, but not re-tried yet. A slight raising of the tension can have a small effect on the strings' parallel positioning with the fret-board. I suspect this helped even the thinner strings sound better on the Bluegrass sets.

One added benefit to some of these hybrids is realized in the dry air of the Winter heating seasons. Sometimes one gets caught in between setups and Winter/Summer saddles where it does not quite need that extra height yet. The Hybrids will put a tiny bit more tension on the neck. Little amounts can and sometimes does matter.

I love hybrid strings.  I have a maple Guild JF 30 and the DR Rares bluegrass gauge are the best

[Larsongs]

In July 1975 my wife bought me a new Martin D-35 for my Birthday.. This coming July it will turn 46 years old… I don’t recall it ever sounding anything but great! Though Age & Playing has improved it’s Sound & Tone… Now in 2021 it sounds better than ever! 

[jt]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:55 PM, peter l said:

There’s also a belief that as a guitar ages, the wood dries, making the top more flexible.

Wood is a porous substance. It cannot become drier than its surrounding environment. To test this, put a guitar, any guitar no matter how old or new, in a very humid environment. The wood will take on moisture and as a result the top will belly and the action will rise. Put the same guitar in a very arid environment. Moisture will move from the guitar to the surrounding environment. The wood will shrink, the top will sink, and if you give it enough time, the guitar will crack.

What can happen with time is that the resins in the guitar will crystalize. Again, the wood cannot be drier than its environment, but that crystallization of resins may affect tone.

[jdgm]

....."this process generally takes many years for a guitar to take on that parched dryness and hair trigger response associated with old instruments."

Superb. I've never heard it put better.

 

[Kwlsky]

Does the later improvements in sound come from the back and sides finally opening up? I have read that some feel the b/s open up over time and some people don't. I'm certainly no expert, but I can feel the back of the guitar vibrating against my belly when I play.  There must be some long term effect from this on the b/s becoming more flexible over time, albeit at a slower rate.