The story never ends......

[Buc McMaster]

Here's a disscussion on the AGF of the financial/quality state of Gibson acoustic guitars. The usual mix of bashers and defenders of the Gibson flame. For me, the two things that stand out is consumer distrust of Gibson's consistancy and sticker shock at Gibson's pricing........two very important issues for any company making product for the public. I agree with much of what is written here. It is sad to see such an American icon spiral downward toward an uncertain fate......

 

Gibson's Demise on the AGF

[albertjohn]

They love it over there!

 

I only joined a couple of weeks ago. I'm bored with the Gibson bashing already.

[ajsc]

I dropped my membership, a long time ago. Don't really care what they have to say!

[Gilliangirl]

I used to love the AGF but I left because I got so tired of others demeaning my choice of guitar. The bottom line is that it's all opinion. You can argue til you're blue in the face and it won't get you anywhere. It's a waste of valuable time. As for the reported (by the media) demise of Gibson, I haven't seen any real evidence yet that this is true? Is this along the same lines as conspiracy theories and weapons of mass destruction? The media is very powerful.

At this time my Long & McQuade is stocking a wall of Gibsons.

[larryp58]

Yea, you know what they say about opinions! I would, however, love to get a comment or some kind of response from Gibson Montana on these recent discussions. 'Cause you know that they're monitoring the Forum. It seems to me that it would be in their best interest to make some sort of statement, whether it be good or bad. And if problems are occuring, what is being done to rectify them. Like someone said before, I'd hate to see an American Icon like the Gibson Guitar Company go down in flames.

[Paul E]

I don't believe that Gibson would vanish from the scene forever. We all have read about the supposed problems with financial managemnet, price fixing, and personnel management that are going on at Gibson. I think the Gibson name has too big a place in music to disappear. They still build quality instruments, it's just as hard to find the right Gibson that sounds just right to a person as a Taylor or Martin, so for some one to say that Gibson is putting out an inferior product is wrong. Their pricing for guitars is in the pallpark with Martin and Taylor. The demand is there. What may happen is change in ownership and there are probably a few companies chomping at the bit whating to pick Gibson up.

Just my opinion which doesn't matter to a hill of beans.

[bkharmony]

Well, folks have gone from "Gibson has quality control problems; every once in a while a bad one gets out," to "Gibson has quality control problems; you can only find one or two good guitars in every 100 they make." It's freakin' ridiculous. And of course there's not one whit of evidence to back it up. Just.... "I played a bad one once."

 

But yeah, Gibson has a huge problem, at least with acoustics. Their public perception is that their product is poorly made and way overpriced. And that's in their desired market. Let's face it - not a whole lot of folks can afford a Gibson. But the ones who can don't trust them. And now there aren't enough of them out in the shops to change anyone's mind. I'm surprised they still sell any guitars at all. I would never, ever buy a GIbson from GC, which is the only place I can find one.

 

Maybe they should just Let Epiphone make the vast majority of the acoustics and Gibson should just do Custom Shop orders. They've failed as a maker of mass-market guitars. Maybe they can make it as a boutique shop.

[Buc McMaster]

The Gibson bashing-for-bashings-sake doesn't bother me - everyone has their favorite guitar brand and many will defend it to the death and slander everything else. Some have no tolerance for anything but what they see to be the best. Look no further than fanatical fans of team sports in the USA to find unreasonable human devotion to a brand. There is no denying that Gibson as a company is and has been for many, many years a difficult brand to defend. Their distribution policies are draconian to say the least. I worked at a retail Gibson dealership during the 90's and used to laugh at the ridiculous demands placed on us........we laughed until it wasn't funny anymore, at which point we dropped Gibson. And that was 15+ years ago. I am a Gibson player......I love my guitar. But I also realize that Gibson's quality of construction varies wildly from one instrument to the next. I can attest to this from personal experience, as can many of you if you're honest with yourself. It's the nature of the beast. Why? God knows. For me it's part of the appeal........searching for that one, knowing when I find it, it will be a gem. Certainly all mass-producing guitar builders have consistency issues, but Gibson takes it to another level. Therein lies the rub for non-Gibson people. Word has gotten around the guitar playing world that an exceptional Gibson acoustic guitar is not easy to find. Old players are settled in their ways with their Martins or Taylors or Guilds or whatevers, just as we are settled into our Gibsons. New players, and those that want to be, hear these stories and are wary of the Gibson brand, not to mention that Gibson has no entry-level instruments bearing their name.

 

But news of retailers like Buffalo Bothers, Elderly and others dropping the line is not a good sign for the company. Fuller's can no longer advertise their Gibson inventory on the web, and if any dealer has been supportive of the brand, they have in spades. How can Gibson defend this thinking? As suggested in the AGF postings, perhaps Gibson has bowed to the pressure of GC and the volume they generate. Of this I have no first hand knowledge but it certainly seems plausible. This is the tail waggin' the dog if it's true.

 

What is really going on at Gibson and what will be the outcome? Only Gibson knows (I hope they know!), but given the above, it looks like Gibson as a company is swimming upstream, and that will wear you out over the long haul.

[yaz1009]

Yes, AGF, a lot of interesting topics, and good info too, and plenty of Gibson bashing. I find a heavy amount of snobbery there as well. Exclusivity if you will, perhaps well "reasoned/sounded", perhaps only because they can. I have two Gibson's both purchased from GC - different ones btw, years apart. One a 1996 J-30 Rosewood the other a 2007 AJ. The first was a gift the latter my own purchase and one that was not initially planned.

 

As for the AJ purchase - I'd simply gone into the used room to play a variety of guitars that were unlike my J30 - that is truth be told, non-Gibbys. I played many that day - Martins old and new, Larivees, Breedloves, Collings, Huss/Dalton, Santa Cruz and others. I spied the AJ and played it and it stood out above all the rest. I would return it to the wall and play others but kept going back to it. It should be said at this point I had no intentions of buying - just playing some nice guitars. In the end I returned home and that damn AJ would not leave me alone. I eventually bought it. While slightly used and purchased at a discount GC gave me the full 3yr Gibson warranty.

 

Funny how many classic musicians have composed and continue to play Gibsons - John Fogerty, Tom Petty, Bruce (in studio and home anyway) etc... Fact goes unmentioned on the AGF. Cheers Yaz

[BigKahune]

The Gibson bashing-for-bashings-sake doesn't bother me - everyone has their favorite guitar brand and many will defend it to the death and slander everything else. ... But news of retailers like Buffalo Bothers' date=' Elderly and others dropping the line is not a good sign for the company. Fuller's can no longer advertise their Gibson inventory on the web, and if any dealer has been supportive of the brand, they have in spades. How can Gibson defend this thinking? As suggested in the AGF postings, perhaps Gibson has bowed to the pressure of GC and the volume they generate. Of this I have no first hand knowledge but it certainly seems plausible. This is the tail waggin' the dog if it's true.

What is really going on at Gibson and what will be the outcome? Only Gibson knows (I hope they know!), but given the above, it looks like Gibson as a company is swimming upstream, and that will wear you out over the long haul.[/quote']

 

Buc - Very well put. And my thoughts run on those lines. (Short quote, but I agree with everything you've said)

 

I happen to live by Elderly, and when they dropped Gibson retail (they, of course, still deal used Gibsons) I was upset to say the least. Sure, there's a couple other "authorized" Gibson dealers in the area, but their stock is to low for me - they very few models and usually the one on the wall is the only one they have. This is what really gets to me. There's a couple GCs in the state, but they're stock is nothing to write home about either. The situation with Fuller's is about all I can take. I hope they come up with a better distribution scheme, the current one is chasing customers away.

[lespaulj45]

Rules for selecting guitars......

 

1. Don't buy guitars you haven't played

2. I have bolt on neck SG's that sound terrific and I have played $3K Les Pauls that werent up to it

3. Until all guitars are built in the same room by the same guy at the same time follow rule #1

[Hoss]

15+ years ago there were problems with consistent quality-- why wouldn't there be? A brand new factory-management turning over every year, workers to train and worker turnover.... I saw some 'interesting' stuff in stores back then.

 

That's changed these days. True, I don't necessarily want to buy every new Gibson I pick up, but so what? I have a similar reaction to every other brand that I try out. I don't find Gibsons to be overpriced, either. They aren't inexpensive, but neither is a Martin of similar quality.

 

 

Play the guitar. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, try another.

[BigKahune]

...the financial/quality state of Gibson acoustic guitars. ... For me' date=' the two things that stand out is consumer distrust of Gibson's consistancy and sticker shock at Gibson's pricing........two very important issues for any company making product for the public. ... It is sad to see such an American icon spiral downward toward an uncertain fate...[/quote']

 

I'd like to see more comments on the financial viability of Gibson Corp

 

Instead of comments on 'how to buy a guitar'.

[kebob]

I frequent AGF occassionally. It does have some snobbery overtones to it, but it's just a message board. Not worth getting anyone's undies in a bunch over.

[rar]

15+ years ago there were problems with consistent quality-- why wouldn't there be? A brand new factory-management turning over every year' date=' workers to train and worker turnover.... I saw some 'interesting' stuff in stores back then.

 

That's changed these days. ...

[/quote']

 

+1 Gibson obviously had some major consistency problems in the '90s. But for the last, say, five years, there's been no real difference in consistency between the big guys. There's plenty of variability in tone -- as long as there's plenty of variability in tap tone of the boards, there's going to be plenty of variability in tone of the finished acoustic guitars -- but that has nothing to do with inconsistency in the production processes.

 

What I think the AGF Gibson discussions illustrate is (1) a lot of people's opinions of Gibson acoustics are based on past experiences that are no longer relevant (the bad old Norlin days, in some cases) and (2) a lot of people's opinions of Gibson acoustics are based on what they've heard from other people rather than what they've heard playing recent Gibsons. I suppose, given that there aren't a lot of shops around with large stocks of well-maintained Gibsons, that's no big surprise.

 

-- Bob R

[jgwoods]

AT the company I work for we used to laugh at some of the stupid corporate moves and say that we made money in spite of ourselves. No matter how dumb we did things we still made money- not nearly as much as we might have- but still profitable because we did a few things very well and all the dumb stuff never canceled that out. Well in the end it did and we got sold.

 

I think Gibson is kind of the same way- and the important thing is that they make some really nice guitars along with duds. I bet they shake their heads and laugh about it, knowing there are better ways but until the current owner sells out it ain't gonna happen.

 

I find the idea that Guitar Center (aka Musicians Friend as well) drives their marketing policies to be interesting- the idea that one big customer for their guitars has put them in a position where they treat all of the others poorly has a ring of truth to it, even though it may not be so. I think they would be a lot better off if they went the other way- tell GC/MF to drop dead and put their guitars in all of the mom and pop small shops, Fullers, Elderly. Gruhns Buffalo Bros and so on. They would get better representation from people who love music than they will get from GC/MF who love marketing and profit above all.

[Buc McMaster]

The experience I was refering to in the 90's did not concern the quality of Gibson's work.......it was the demands placed on dealers to stock instruments of Gibson's choosing. You will order and maintain stock on these instuments in these quantities. No, you cannot buy that model unless you buy this one as well. No, you cannot return that Les Paul Custom with the finish flaw......deal with it. All manufacturers push product on their dealer network, but very few assume to know the dealer's marketplace and what product it will support. Gibson was then and sounds like they still are of this mind. You're market's requirements be damned.......you will stock our guitars as we want. Set the consistancy issues aside. Gibson's business model was broken, chasing off dealers with demands without regard for the dealer's knowledge of his market. This is not good business practise, not for Gibson nor it's dealer network.

[dhanners623]

Is Gibson publicly traded? I suppose if it is, we could look up its financials.

 

Not that anyone asked me, but here's my opinion. While the guitar/music community can be quick to spread the good word about some new product, it is terribly slow at correcting untruths or changing old attitudes. There's definitely a lag -- sometimes measured in years or even decades -- before some products can shake a bad reputation. It may not matter what Gibson does with its acoustics at this point. Their guitars will just have to prove their worth in the marketplace and among musicians.

 

Plus, I think it's just easy for people to believe the worst about Gibson, unlike a Martin or other brands. Ever played a Martin from the early '70s? Some of those are among the doggiest guitars ever made. I had a friend who had a D-18 from '73 (or it might've been '74) and it took a miracle to get it in tune. And if you did manage to get it in tune, God forbid you put a capo on it. It was one of the countless Martins that had the bridge in the wrong place.

 

I don't recall people at that era gnashing their teeth and asking, "What the hell has happened to Martin?!?" and saying the brand's guitars were no good. Martin fixed the problems, and in many ways, I think Gibson has, too. Played an AJ Saturday that was as fine an instrument as you'd ever want to play. And as I've said before, my '98 J-45 is an amazing guitar.

 

As far as pricing goes, how much do the complainers think a Gibson acoustic ought to cost? Have they priced other guitars lately? I have, and for the most part, I don't think Gibsons are ridiculously priced for a solid-wood American-made guitar.

 

I think those of us who play good Gibsons just have to keep going out there and showing other guitarists just how good a Gibson can be. It's the only way we're going to change attitudes.

 

That said, if Gibson is making unrealistic demands of retailers, then that's a whole other issue. They need to get some good marketing people to fix that one.

[DanvillRob]

Guess it's time for my 2 cents.....

 

I have 3 Gibson Acoustic guitars... 1969, 1979 & 2003. I like them all. None were "overpriced", in fact, I don't know how Gibson makes the guitars they do make for so little money, (knowing there are mark-ups all along the way).

 

Last year I purchased two 2009 Epi's from GC....expecting "marginal" guitars, I was prepared to get them worked on before I gave them away for Christmas. Sonofagun if both of them weren't fabulous guitars. The both cost me about $300, (not counting hard cases, Couch Straps, tuners, picks, etc.). I think I got one hell of a deal.

 

I bought my 2003 Gibby from GC. I have nothing bad to say about 'em, or my guitar.. They treated me fairly, they did what they said they'd do, and they made it VERY easy to buy my guitar, (shipped to my home THE NEXT DAY!).

 

I'm SURE there are quality issues with some guitars, so if you're buying new, that's what warranties are for....if you buy used, you'd better look it over carefully and make sure it suits your expectations.

 

Nothing is perfect in this world except for the fondness I have of my guitars!

 

Okay...maybe that was 4 cents.

[rar]

The experience I was refering to in the 90's did not concern the quality of Gibson's work.......it was the demands placed on dealers to stock instruments of Gibson's choosing. ...

 

Well' date=' [i']some[/i] things don't change.

 

I wouldn't care to try to defend any details of any specific version of the plan. I wouldn't be surprised if there have been some fairly absurd requirements. But the basic idea -- that, if you want to be a Gibson dealer, you should stock the full line (in some appropriate sense of "the full line") rather than cherry picking what you think will sell -- seems perfectly reasonable to me. If I visit a shop that's advertised as an authorized Gibson dealer, I expect to see a nice variety of Gibsons.

 

Obviously, some stores can't handle that requirement, for various legitimate business reasons. Maybe they can only move the low-end. Or only move the high-end. Or only move guitars with plain tops. Whatever. Then they don't get to be Gibson dealers. Such is life.

 

-- Bob R

[rar]

Is Gibson publicly traded?

 

Nope. So stories of Gibson's financial straits are based partly on speculation -- outsiders haven't seen the books. But' date=' on the other hand, if my credit rating were to take a nose dive, speculating that I was in financial trouble wouldn't be [i']entirely[/i] unfounded.

 

-- Bob R

[rar]

I think they would be a lot better off if they went the other way- tell GC/MF to drop dead and put their guitars in all of the mom and pop small shops' date=' Fullers, Elderly. Gruhns Buffalo Bros and so on. [/quote']

 

That was tried, briefly, not that long ago. (Although I don't think that the words "drop dead" were used.) For whatever reason, the experiment was judged less than successful.

 

When I got my first guitar at GC in Hollywood, they'd just opened their second location in San Francisco. Since then, they have pretty much crushed the competition and taken over the world. That may have something to do with it.

 

-- Bob R

[Buc McMaster]

Here's some info from the horse's mouth, so to speak - employees, current and former, speak their minds about working for Gibson. Nothing to do with the quality of the product........nevermind that for now. This is about the company as a functioning entity. This stuff sounds quite dreadful and does not speak well of the future of Gibson. And between the lines it also speaks to the quality of product being produced.

 

This is from an outfit called Glassdoor that reviews companies.......salaries, work environment, benefits, etc........through the eyes of the employees.

 

Gibson Employees Speak

[bkharmony]

I think those of us who play good Gibsons just have to keep going out there and showing other guitarists just how good a Gibson can be. It's the only way we're going to change attitudes.

 

I'm going to go ahead and decline being a Gibson evangelist. I'll happily tell someone how much I like mine, but I really can't get behind the company. Until they start looking out for me, I won't be looking out for them.

[ksdaddy]

Lord, what horrific reading!