Skill level, and Specific Guitar importance?

[bigneil]

i have always preferred the shorter scale length of les paul guitars, and from the first electric i ever owned the sound of a humbucker crunching up tubes was what made me want to keep going because i just loved the noise it made.

 

Hence my love of les paul guitars and my indifference to classic strat style guitars.

 

so, Basically IMO, a learner just simply has to choose a type of guitar that suits his/her intended playing style, and don't buy Utter rubbish because it will probably be horrible to play and put you off.

 

once a person becomes adept at playing, while true that they can make a nasty guitar sound good. I also truly believe that if you have a nice, well playing instrument, that compliments your playing style, then you will be inspired to really make sing.

[larkin38]

My first guitars were cheap (for the time) Kay`s and Harmony`s. With high action which I didn`t know I could change (at the time). As I started learning more and more, the guitars were better. Easier to play, I subscribed to Guitar Player and learned how to adjust string height and alot of other tricks.

After all the guitars that passsed thru my hands over the years, I always had a harder time playing the Fender neck scale.

The Gibson or Epiphone scale length was much easier to play.

[rafaelh]

Had a thought...as you progress "skill wise" does the specific

type of guitar you play' date=' neck shape, pickup arrangement, etc.,

become more or less important. [/quote']

 

I wouldn't call it more or less important for me, but I've become more aware of what all that means in terms of playability as I've gotten older....scale length, radius, and such. Or the right tool for the right job sort of speak....I'll still sound like crap no matter what, but some just makes it less strenuous for me to sound like caca.

 

However I guess now a days one specific area I would prefer NOT to have on my guitars would be vintage frets, or small frets. I don't necessarily care for high action, but do want to feel some kind of resistance from the strings when I press on them.

[Notes_Norton]

The more experience I get on my guitars, the easier it is for me to try another guitar. But I still don't like those short radius necks like the ones on some Fenders.

 

Notes

[mbberry]

Guitars matter.

Has this ever happened to you:

You play a song or a lick' date=' on one guitar just right. Ten seconds later you pick up a different guitar, play the same song/lick, and it just isn't played as well.

Guitars matter.[/quote']

 

interesting thread. just the other day i swapped tubes in my old tweed and played a strat, dot, and casino just to hear the difference in tones. i played the same lick from one of my bands songs and played all three with ease. the only difference i have noticed as i have progressed (ive been playing for about fifteen years now) is that i require a professional setup on any guitar i play.

[Boxxymary]

Some great, really interesting stuff in this post.

With this purchase of my own quite recently, overall cost of amp and guitar were definitely a factor for me. That being said, at my level, I don't really imagine that I could make more magic come out of the amp with a better guitar than the one I have. I liked the look of the guitar and the superb price gave me that final shove to buy it. I think for many of us, this is the case, where somewhere along the line the cost becomes a limiting factor.

Before buying, I asked many questions, perhaps the most foolish of which was 'which type of guitar might be 'easier' for me as a beginner'?. I got the same odd look from all of the store guys...........all of whom said something along the lines of 'none of them are easy' for someone beginning' and so-on, and that it was about which one 'felt & looked' right for me. I still can't believe I asked such a question, where the answer was so blatantly obvious.

Whilst I do understand that there are so many variables within guitars, I believe that at beginner level it's mainly all about aesthetics and what we can afford. We want the Gibson but the Epiphone is still a thing of more than ample great beauty & good quality. To a point, we can be led by the feel of a guitar but in a much less emotional way - Les Paul's are a heavy guitar and others can be less-so, or, "my butt looks way too big with a Strat copy' etc.......but until we can actually sit down with a wide variety of guitars and play something in the shop, well..........for me, at least, it was about asking the sales guy to do that part for me while my eyes and ears did the rest, along with quite a bit of internet reading and research beforehand re; brand etc. I liked the look and sound of the rig and it was within my budget.

I strongly believe, though, that as my skills advance, I will become much more discerning & it will become much less a mainly aesthetic choice and much more about how the neck feels, the many tonal & other intrinsic aspects that make one guitar a very different animal than another. Of course, I'm never going to tire of looking at them and drooling.

Having had an 'almost as decent' guitar & amp before some 6 years ago and only very occasionally picking it up, to play the same 8 - 10 chords badly, over and over, before eventually selling it on, I was determined this time to 'make it count'. I am in a much less able position financially to have bought this rig than was the case when I bought the previous one, but that isn't what will motivate me to this time actually learn, practice and play the guitar - it's very definitely about me now being ready to play it............that along with me not getting any younger.

It's way beyond overdue that I need now go further than simply marvel at the ability of others, and begin to make some sweet sounds of my own.

[Steven Lister]

Good players sound impressive no matter what they're playing....

No. The difference between good/bad players is that a good player can tell by a little warm-up test if what they are holding can sound impressive... and if it can't there is no way in hell they will let you hear them have a go at it.

 

 

And then there is the argument that a seasoned pro can make a $99 El-Cheapo sound fantastic.

No. Well probably not fantastic' date=' but better than the un-seasoned amateur hack.

 

These "it's all in the fingers" type phrases are cop-outs for those who are unwilling to sacrifice whatever they have to in order to play like the Devil himself.

 

If you're in that group, it's okay. Just know that you're not doing the music community any favors by keeping alive these meaningless notions that lend ready-made cop-outs to up and comers when the going gets tough (and it always gets tough at times).

 

Creatures of habit, we develop prefences. I prefer LPs and play one so much that it is "known" to me nearly as well as I know my own body. But as I've developed, along with skill comes a smattering of experiences on different models/types so that their differences are no longer intimidating. It's a guitar for cripes sake. With adequate practice, I can play Strats or Teles, etc. and achieve a reasonable facsimile (w/unique flavoring particular to the model) of whatever I would normally choose to play on my LP.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[LHC- Jr.]

 

myth & blather wrote:

Good players sound impressive no matter what they're playing....

 

No. The difference between good/bad players is that a good player can tell by a little warm-up test if what they are holding can sound impressive... and if it can't there is no way in hell they will let you hear them have a go at it.

 

 

 

No, "myth & blather" didn't write that. I did.

 

Obviously you don't agree, but that doesn't change the fact that old blues players sounded pretty good playing cigar boxes, and I've read that Robert Johnson could get a juke joint rocking with a wire nailed to the wall, the so called "diddley bow". That was back before he bought a guitar from a mail order house. I think he was pretty impressive, despite the fact that his rig wasn't the best money could buy, and others seem to share this opinion. You don't, but on what grounds?

 

And yes, I've heard good players sound really good playing very mediocre instruments. That's not to say that they should play mediocre instruments, but history, as well as my own personal experience, confirm that the player is the crucial factor, not the guitar.

 

In the future I would appreciate it if you could express your opinions without the disparaging sarcasm. You are not the final authority on anything, and I think you should at least try to be polite.

[w1av]

OK after reading this very interesting subject I have to agree that it is much less gratifying to play a guitar (a cheapo)that doesnt "feel" right. BUT I have played $2500 Gibson LP's at Guitar Center that were so badly set up that the $300 Epiphone G-400 next to it felt and played like the $2500 guitar should have.

Most of my playing and recording involves using all 5 electric guitars I own. My most expensive is the Gibson SG and least expensive is my Vinci Stratocaster copy (cost:$0). My newest guitar, the one in my avatar pic is an Epi LP Classic. I am still not real used to playing it yet and stumble a little playing it. But it is set up nice and plays good. The guitar I play the most has to be my Squier Telecaster because it feels good to hold, and I absolutely LOVE the sound of the neck pickup. I replaced the crappy stock pups with Fender vintage noiseless a while ago. I seem to be able to play fast and smooth with that guitar. The least played is my Washburn Delta King semi hollow body. I originally bought this guitar off Ebay in 2007 for $150 so it is one of the low priced guitars. BUT after setting up and installing better pups it feels great to hold and play and sounds like a NICE real 335. It ended up being my gigging guitar when my Girlfriend and I were playing out. This guitar was stricktly for gigs, however I did use it on a few songs I recorded. It usually sits in it's case. I will on occasion take out my SG but I want to keep it clean and in good shape cause it cost alot of money. I do use it to record mostly and NEVER would take it out to gig! I guess what guitar I choose to record with depends on the type of song I am doing and the sound I want. I normally use the single coil guitars for rhythm and the humbuckers for lead. But I am flexible. All my guitars are set up to play the way I like and I can play the same riff/scales/solos on all of them almost equally. The strings are a little more harder to bend on the SG tho.

I did discover under the bed a nice G&L Stratocaster!!!!! I didnt even know it was there till my girlfriend said there was a Strat in the house. We have alot of guitars and stuff everywhere so this guitar was sort of forgotten. She bought it a few years ago and didnt play it. She is all acoustic too. So I took it out of the case, replaced the strings and it is a super guitar. I liked it so much I posted 3 videos on YouTube last night. I was all fired up and played some backing tracks, blues. I couldnt resist and set up camera. Just do a search for "w1av" on YouTube and the videos are the 3 newest ones posted April 16th. This guitar was setup real nice and feels and plays like butter. I did however use my little Fender Frontman amp tho so the sound isnt perfect but close enuff for YouTube.

I think for RECORDING, I can make a crap guitar sound fine. My girlfriend did comment once on how I could pick up a crappy guitar and make it sing. But it depends. Depends on the mood. My mood.

[Steven Lister]

No, "myth & blather" didn't write that. I did.

 

Obviously you don't agree, but that doesn't change the fact that old blues players sounded pretty good playing cigar boxes, and I've read that Robert Johnson could get a juke joint rocking with a wire nailed to the wall, the so called "diddley bow". That was back before he bought a guitar from a mail order house. I think he was pretty impressive, despite the fact that his rig wasn't the best money could buy, and others seem to share this opinion. You don't, but on what grounds?

 

And yes, I've heard good players sound really good playing very mediocre instruments. That's not to say that they should play mediocre instruments, but history, as well as my own personal experience, confirm that the player is the crucial factor, not the guitar.

 

In the future I would appreciate it if you could express your opinions without the disparaging sarcasm. You are not the final authority on anything, and I think you should at least try to be polite.

 

Politeness was shown -- the quote was challenged not the poster (which you have now identified as yourself).

BTW you are not THE AUTHORITY on polite so save your lectures for someone who cares what you think.

 

Your argument was ---> "Good players sound impressive no matter what they're playing...."

but now you want to change that to ---> "old blues players sounded pretty good playing cigar boxes."

Do you see the difference? If not, look harder b/c you should.

 

Then you add ---> "the player is the crucial factor, not the guitar."

Yes b/c guitars don't play by themselves (yet). But your notion is still overbroad and not comparing apples-to-apples.

 

You can choose to go on repeating your initial myth, nobody can stop you.

But anyone who thinks about it for more than three seconds will realize that good players can sound bad on both good and bad rigs. My challenge was spot-on -- the quote, your quote, is myth and blather.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[zombywoof]

As I hit geezerdom weight has become more of a factor - my idea of heaven these days ain't standing on a stage with a 10 pound piece of lumber strapped on.

 

The rest of it - nope. I can pretty much pull what I want out of most guitars. Have nights when I suck and those when I am in the zone which for reasons I cannot pinpoint my hands do stuff I did not know they could do. Has nothing to do with the guitar though. Think it has more to do with getting my ego and brain the heck out of the way.

[LHC- Jr.]

I've had enough of your belligerence and stupidity. There's absolutely no logic in your statements, "Steve". I think someone being able to sound good on a cigar box or a diddley bow proves my initial statement that "good players sound impressive no matter what they're playing". Does your medication keep you from seeing the connection?

 

In the future I'll make sure to avoid forums frequented by the rude and ignorant.

 

 

Have fun with your house troll, guys, and be patient: He just needs a way to deal with his frustration.

[duane v]

I've had enough of your belligerence and stupidity. There's absolutely no logic in your statements, "Steve". I think someone being able to sound good on a cigar box or a diddley bow proves my initial statement that "good players sound impressive no matter what they're playing". Does your medication keep you from seeing the connection?

 

In the future I'll make sure to avoid forums frequented by the rude and ignorant.

 

 

Have fun with your house troll, guys, and be patient: He just needs a way to deal with his frustration.

 

 

 

Mr LCH I understand your feelings, as I have been a target of certain members BS so I understand your frustration. My advice is ignore it, it's really not that difficult. Not every member here is going to hit home with the way you feel, nor should we expect that......

 

Then there are the very small minority that just cant communicate at a high level and have to resort to name calling or insults.... But you can be sure that myself, sexygibson and shadow are watching certain members very closely.

 

Then there are the certain members that like to pontificate on certain subject matter. It's really easy to steer clear of those lofty types..LOL!!! However they have a right to post their opinions as well.....

 

Pick and choose your battles wisely...

[Dr. Rock]

A good guitar won't make a bad guitarist good, but it will be a lot easier to learn on, and the player will be more likely to stick with it if he's not constantly fighting against his instrument.[/quote

 

+1

[zombywoof]

 

 

No, "myth & blather" didn't write that. I did.

 

Obviously you don't agree, but that doesn't change the fact that old blues players sounded pretty good playing cigar boxes, and I've read that Robert Johnson could get a juke joint rocking with a wire nailed to the wall, the so called "diddley bow". That was back before he bought a guitar from a mail order house. I think he was pretty impressive, despite the fact that his rig wasn't the best money could buy, and others seem to share this opinion. You don't, but on what grounds?

 

The old players themselves probably would have objected to this kind of assessment - as Lonnie Johnson once blurted out to an interviewer - "are you another one of those guys that wants to put crutches under my ***" meaning that he was sick of the white perception that a blues player to be the real deal had to talk in plantation dialect,grown up strumming a cigar box guitar, and be afflicted with some kind of disability.

 

Many of the pre-War blues players made darn good money for recording sessions - ranging from $40 for the session to $40 a side - about what they could make working the fields in one year. The guitar most associated with the pre-War blues players - the Oscar Schmidt-made Stellas were over built but still good sounding instruments (not to be confused with the later Harmony-distributed versions). But a fair share of players used fairly expensive guitars such as Memphis Minnie and her National Style 1 Tri-cone and Rev. Gary Davis' Miss Gibson (a 1942 SJ-200).

 

They also knew how to manipulate a guitar to get a sound they were looking for. Guys like Blind Willie McTell and Lightnin' Hopkins tuned down to a C sharp or A because they liked a fat A7. Charlie Patton tuned his guitar up a step and half to get his guitar louder and keep up with his voice which was said you could hear from 500 yards away. Barbecue Bob Hicks favored a 26 1/2 scale Stella 12-string cuz he could get the sound he wanted using lighter guage strings. And so on.

[jozluck]

LOL!

 

Conway Twitty: "Its the driver, not the car..." and he could play well....

 

The real thing is this: If your serious, then get the best you can rather than constantly trading up or trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear...I know, I have over 200 in a Joe Pass lemon I got on ebay...but ended up with good gibson parts deals on ebay. On my end, I made it an experiment after going to MITs acoustic site and placed tone boards and additions to the platform of the guitar. So, it is one of a kind off a lesser base....in that respect its ok as it will produce the sound quality I want. I have a mahogany Tele body which I rewired and configured to have a unique sound...but it's a sound I want and can't buy. On that end, you only need a quality base platform to work with...but:

 

A good guitar is a good investment...any high end guitar will bring your money back to you. Guns, guitars and women all cost; but, only the first two will give you your money back....LOL!

[LHC- Jr.]

The old players themselves probably would have objected to this kind of assessment - as Lonnie Johnson once blurted out to an interviewer - "are you another one of those guys that wants to put crutches under my ***" meaning that he was sick of the white perception that a blues player to be the real deal had to talk in plantation dialect' date='grown up strumming a cigar box guitar, and be afflicted with some kind of disability.

[/quote']

 

It wasn't my intention to depict these guys as "handicapped". My point was simply that some of old blues players did an awful lot with instruments which would be considered pretty "difficult to play" by today's standards. I could have used country musicians as the example, but I like the blues. To be honest, I still don't understand how a diddley bow works or how someone could get enough music or volume out of one to fill a room, but supposedly Mr. Johnson did. And he wasn't the only one.

 

As far as the successful blues players' instruments go, here's a cool list of "who played what":

 

http://www.earlyblues.com/blues_singers.htm

 

As one can see, these guys weren't playing any "crutches", Mr. "Zombiewoof".

 

Never in my wildest dreams did I expect to cause such a stir with a simple little comment like: "Good players sound impressive no matter what guitar they play." That's been my experience, but if I had known what I was getting myself into, I wouldn't have written anything. I won't make that mistake again! But is it possible that some people are simply overreacting?

[jozluck]

LOL, didn't even view it as such....guess politics has dripped over into the human arena of life....I simply met that Conway Twitty could actually play...no more no less ....LOL! and I don't like country twang picking..but appreciate the skill level... It's just a quote he used to make.

 

I think in the long run, people are better off getting the best they can...unless they want to work on them...and if you do, then go with fender...they are much easier to work with, beleive me. They are the legos of guitars...

 

I'm looking at the new Grudins now, handmade in Canada at under 2k....much better quality wood then Epiphones for a more mellow sound and less than Gibson..much more versitility in electronics also....Maple sounds tinny no matter how you make them....unless you put a mahogany wood center block in them....so you still have a mahogany base...and an ES price tag to go with it.

 

A good lesson is to not personalize any comment or take it as such. Even if it is, ignore it on any site or blog. No one is that important to waste your time on...be well, play well...

[Thermionik]

Don't beat yourself up LHC, Jr. - the original question (As you progress "skill wise" does the specific

type of guitar you play, neck shape, pickup arrangement, etc; become more or less important.) was a good question (CB often does that.....) and your initial response was both humble and echoed by several other people, myself included. The little 'diversion' in mid-thread was no big deal, and don't forget that Steven has his opinion as others have theirs, and is 'strong' in his expression of it sometimes. Personally, I agree with you - a good player can make nice sounds on a mediocre guitar, but a good guitar will not make a mediocre player sound good.

 

However - best approach, well, jozlukc has a nice way with words.....

 

be well, play well

[zombywoof]

 

Never in my wildest dreams did I expect to cause such a stir with a simple little comment like: "Good players sound impressive no matter what guitar they play." That's been my experience, but if I had known what I was getting myself into, I wouldn't have written anything. I won't make that mistake again! But is it possible that some people are simply overreacting?

 

 

No - you are 100% correct and I apologized if it seemed I was overreacting. Lightnin' Hopkins would probably sound better plucking a piece of piano wire strung on a board than most folks playing a '57 Strat. Ya put the most expensive guitar in the world in the hands of a hack and he is still going to sound like a hack.

 

My point was - the old players - Skip James, Barbecue Bob, Curley Weaver, Black Ace, Memphis Minnie, Big Bill Broonzy - knew what a good guitar was and how to bring out the best in them. The ability to stay in one piece and pump out volume was more of an issue that tone. They knew things like raising the action and using heavy guage strings would drive the top and give a guitar more punch and presence. This is a lost art today as most players want a lightly braced guitar with an action as low as an electrics.

 

I am one of the lucky ones. I have been using the same electric and acoustics for alot of decades. I originally got them when they were simply "used" guitars because I could not afford new instruments. Somewhere along the way they became "vintage" guitars which I could not afford to buy these days.

[RenegadeMaster]

This conversation has got a little out of hand hasn't it :D

 

I think at the end of the day it is all about mentality

 

If I know I am holding a good guitar, I am going to play better

 

It's going to sound better, and I am going to play better because I know it is a good guitar :)

 

That is a little psychology for you guys

 

But obviously a person who can't play guitar can't make the best guitar in the world sing

 

And a seasoned player can make a cigar box sound good :) Which has been proven :P

 

So there you go :)

[Steven Lister]

I've had enough of your belligerence and stupidity. There's absolutely no logic in your statements, "Steve". I think someone being able to sound good on a cigar box or a diddley bow proves my initial statement that "good players sound impressive no matter what they're playing". Does your medication keep you from seeing the connection?

 

In the future I'll make sure to avoid forums frequented by the rude and ignorant.

 

Have fun with your house troll, guys, and be patient: He just needs a way to deal with his frustration.

Logic has eluded one of us, but it’s not me brother (more on that below)..., and are your insults and name calling (in bold above) efforts to flame/inflame? Try elsewhere -- like other forums if you can't abide the rules here.

 

Review all my comments and see that I challenged your opinion/statement as myth and nonsense. You can, and probably will, choose to go on believing it. It was really other members who may benefit from my logical dissection of your statement.

 

Once again your statement is: “good players sound impressive no matter what they're playing.”

And you added, “I think someone being able to sound good on a cigar box or a diddley bow proves my initial statement.” Here is why it does not.

 

Some of my (and yours too?) blues influences played many instruments quite well. Some were even crude/archaic. Put EVH’s rig in their hands. Impressive? Doubtful. Better than EVH? No way. Does this mean they are not “good players” anymore? No. It shows that good players can sound bad even on top-end, high $$$ gear. Some gear just won’t yield what a good player wants to play. Being King-of-the-Diddley-Bow & Cigar-Box doesn’t mean you can play shyte on XXXX. If that is true, then it follows logically that good players can/do sound less than impressive on good gear and also on junk gear.

 

Sounds like what you want to say is that if “average player” and “good player” both play the same guitar on their best days, the good player will sound better on that instrument. That is likely a true statement – logically speaking (or as far as we can be logical on any subjective notion).

 

Now LHC, Jr. if you want to stay bent out of shape, you’ll be bent alone. duane v’s directed his comments to you since you are the only one who is name-calling and flaming.

 

Now it’s really all about the music – so grab a plecktrum and start sounding impressive.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby/..., I'm going to play on:-"

[floydpink7]

Hmn... this thread reminds me of that topic a little while ago about Li'l Wayne with that Gibson Dark Fire...

 

Speaking of which, the Gibson site is down ;)

[LHC- Jr.]

Sorry about resurrecting an ancient thread, but I couldn't resist, especially since I took so much heat for my pretty much self-evident statement that a good guitar player can sound impressive no matter what he plays.

 

Billy Gibbons says:

 

"Good players can get great tone out of a cheap guitar from the mall."

 

I'm sure some "experts" will call that "myth and blather", but so what?

 

The rest of the interview is here: http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/the-man-behind-the-beard-501/

 

Definitely worth reading! I didn't know Hendrix had called Gibbons the best American guitar player.

[Lord Summerisle]

I haven't read the whole thread, nor do I have time to right now, so please excuse me if I'm re-treading old ground.

 

It seems to me that the "base-line" (no pun intended) for new guitars is just so much better than it used to be, years ago. I started off with a Hohner Strat copy in the late '80s that was total (and I mean, total) crap. A new player today could select one of the mid-range Squiers and have a good, serviceable instrument.

 

Same with Epis. I have gigged with my G-400. Any player (including professional musicians, and players far more skilled than I) could also gig with it and not be embarrassed or worried at all.

 

I think we are fortunate to live in times where anyone with around $250+ can buy a good guitar. After that, it all comes down to preference rather than necessity...You can choose to buy an American Standard Stratocaster (I did!)...but you can own a Squier Classic Vibe Strat without feeling hampered or disadvantaged, or feeling as though you are having to "make do" with a grossly inferior instrument