FMIC closing New Hartford

[cookieman15061]

History repeats itself. Fender did it to Tacoma. They are doing it to Guild and Ovation. They acquire companies, mis-manage them, strip any kind of ingenuity and haphazardly apply it to an Asian or Mexican made import that eventually dies as well. In another 10-15 years I hope that someone saves the Strat and most of the Gretsch line from a similar fate.

 

The Gretsch line coming out of Japan and Korea are beautiful looking and playing instruments. In fact I'd put 'em up against any of the American made counterparts.

[milod]

Cookie...

 

I think that's part of the problem.

 

Some of the MIC/MIK instruments are incredible values. Some are far beyond "nice guitars," into the "excellent playing instruments."

 

That means additional corporate pressures on US folks who have been making these designs with great skill and care - but that the economy and tax structures are such that it's significantly less expensive from the "corporate bureaucrats'" perspective to do it overseas.

 

I'll add that it obviously ain't just guitars.

 

Also, there is an increasing gamesmanship caused by US taxation policies that almost force much manufacture of goods and performance of services overseas far more profitable Even If The Cost Is Identical.

 

You can say the corporate bureaucrats are scum, but you also have to figure that a company doing multinational business will by nature utilize that position in such as way as to minimize costs and maximize profits - and tax structures are a great example of keeping a lot of potential business in the U.S. overseas. India, especially, seems to benefit from this due to English skills being quite common, although China ditto.

 

So I'd suggest that to a large extent it's tax policies of the U.S. government making it more profitable for companies to move significant profit centers overseas than to keep them in the country. There are sections of the body politic who think that can be changed either by adding more taxes to the U.S. nexus of such a company, regardless that such action has increased the "flight" of capital; and other sections of the body politic think it would be better to lessen taxes to recover overseas cash reserves into investment in the U.S.

 

And I ain't just talking about guitar companies. There are significant banking, software, "customer service" and other firms doing the same thing.

 

m

[RevDavidLee]

Cookie...

 

I think that's part of the problem.

 

And I ain't just talking about guitar companies. There are significant banking, software, "customer service" and other firms doing the same thing.

 

m

 

I think there's a bigger problem going on here...

 

[charlie brown]

I think there's a bigger problem going on here...

 

 

We've certainly embraced that philosophy, whole heartedly!

 

CB

[quapman]

 

Also, there is an increasing gamesmanship caused by US taxation policies that almost force much manufacture of goods and performance of services overseas far more profitable Even If The Cost Is Identical.

 

 

 

I don't believe that for a second. What policies?

The only policy that would change anything is to tax the living shite out of any imports to make the cost equal

that which they sell for here. That's what would change things.

 

It's got nothing to do with tax policy. It's because they pay the Chinese workers a $1.50 an hour(on a good day), and

make them work 10 hour days.

 

What is has to do with is the North American consumers appetite for cheap crap.

From everything to garden tools to toasters to coffee mugs to poisonous children's jewelery.

 

Tax the crap out of any imported stuff and watch the average consumer scream bloody murder because

their precious box store is now just as expensive as everything else.

I challenge you to go into a dollar store and find one single item made in America. You won't.

 

Nobody cares about quality. The majority want it cheap.

 

And I don't care what jargon you come back with. I hear it everyday with people around me.

They want the best deal on everything they can find.

They don't care. It's a disposable world. They just go buy another.

They could care less if it lasts 20 years. They are happy saving 5 bucks every 5 years.

 

I bet 1 out of 30 people I know would pay for quality.

The rest want it as cheap as they can find.

[PingPongBob]

I don't believe that for a second. What policies?

The only policy that would change anything is to tax the living shite out of any imports to make the cost equal

that which they sell for here. That's what would change things.

 

It's got nothing to do with tax policy. It's because they pay the Chinese workers a $1.50 an hour(on a good day), and

make them work 10 hour days.

 

What is has to do with is the North American consumers appetite for cheap crap.

From everything to garden tools to toasters to coffee mugs to poisonous children's jewelery.

 

Tax the crap out of any imported stuff and watch the average consumer scream bloody murder because

their precious box store is now just as expensive as everything else.

I challenge you to go into a dollar store and find one single item made in America. You won't.

 

Nobody cares about quality. The majority want it cheap.

 

And I don't care what jargon you come back with. I hear it everyday with people around me.

They want the best deal on everything they can find.

They don't care. It's a disposable world. They just go buy another.

They could care less if it lasts 20 years. They are happy saving 5 bucks every 5 years.

 

I bet 1 out of 30 people I know would pay for quality.

The rest want it as cheap as they can find.

 

Well said quap!

[rct]

So I'd suggest that to a large extent it's tax policies of the U.S. government making it more profitable for companies to move significant profit centers overseas than to keep them in the country.

 

No offense Milo. As of 2011, the realized corporate tax rate, that is, the actual rate paid, averaged 12%. That's the lowest it has been since before World War 1.

 

On average, labor is generally twice the tax rate, and labor is one of the hardest things to weasel out of. When you look at how accounting works for corporations as compared to the individual citizen, you get a better picture of what corporate rights are and just how much more a citizen they are than you and I.

 

Crafty accounting can and does overcome tax burdens every single day. In fact, it overcomes every burden placed on a corporation. If you can manage to keep your head from exploding, take a course in Inventory Accounting, you'll see just what they get away with every day, stuff that would land you or I in jail.

 

Labor and employee obligations, that is what is driving companies out of this country. They don't want to pay us to work, don't want us to have decent group rates on health and life insurance, they don't want to pay when we get hurt on the job, and they don't want us to be able to retire, and it makes us feel better to say it is taxes than to grasp just how valueless we are to the 1%.

 

I pay .8% to my retirement. After 2014, the new employees will pay 6.75% to their retirement, for less than I get for working 30 years they'll have to work 35 years. Between the elections of 2020 and 2024 they will probably finally end federal retirement system altogether, tell the employee to go to the stock market and good luck with that.

 

As we say every day, the American Dream is ending.

 

rct

[EVOL!]

I don't have much to add other than this is the largest group of Ovations I have seen that did not have cracked tops, cracks around the bridge, or a belly-buldging top.

[charlie brown]

Regardless of the reasons, it's still Very SAD, to see Guild doing this!

 

I LOVE their acoustic (Jumbo) 6, and 12-string guitars! Maybe even especially,

the 12-strings! Always have! They're a "bucket list" dream acoustic, for me...

among other's, Gibson, Martin, etc.

 

CB

[Jimi Mac]

***Entire Rant Deleted again*** (this one was real long too)

 

Dammit!!!

 

I said I wasn't gonna do this...

 

I gotta stay away from anythin' that even looks political!

 

I hate this!

 

Where are those blood-pressure pills...

 

---

More guitar talk... Less politics!!! (especially in/from myself)

 

I too am saddened by the mass exodus of our American shores for guitars or any manufactured goods, but yes, especially guitars!

[RevDavidLee]

I too am saddened by the mass exodus of our American shores for guitars or any manufactured goods, but yes, especially guitars!

 

Amen Brother Jimi

[milod]

Here's the problem with the concept of "tax structure."

 

There's a lot more involved than corporate "income tax rates" involved.

 

And as I learned ages ago covering my region's export market in Europe, entire tax and regulatory structures are involved.

 

And beyond that are "hidden" sorts of taxes and costs, not to mention other legislated regulations or even non-legal practices that add to costs.

 

Yeah, the Chinese - and before them Koreans and Japanese - are currently happy with lower wage scales than US workers. But it ain't all as simple as one might choose to think.

 

I used to really try to promote Korean markets for American beef producers. In theory, it should have worked like a charm. In practice, a combination of factors made it about as practical as trying to use blowing your nose as a rocket engine to pull yourself into orbit.

 

You can call it "greed" if you wish, and I'll be the first to say I wish this and other bits of international economics were different, but the bottom line is that all of us regardless of our politics want to get the best return on our investment we can get according to our own abilities, skills and ethical perspectives.

 

The U.S. and Canada lost much of their European marketplace for grain and beef roughly at the time of the fall of the Soviet Union and rise of Brazil and Argentina economies because the South American beef was less expensive by far - lower costs of production due to various factors including taxation - and basically processing ownership was in few hands. "We" lost much of the small grains market to Eastern Europe. That latter wasn't so much taxation, but as one German diplomat told me, "If the North American farmer goes broke, it doesn't hit us much, but it the Eastern European farmer goes broke, he can walk here to take advantage of our welfare system."

 

It's a tough world out there. Taxation directly and indirectly plays a huge role in who does business where and how.

 

I've just been working on one where I'm convinced that the major reason a big French international company tried to buy an important mineral firm in my region is that they could put the costs of the purchase against their French taxes and the profits elsewhere in the world.

 

If it's your retirement investment firm or labor union with big votes in a given company, they want the most profit possible for their constituencies. That's why corporations often do as they do. Call it greed or whatever...

 

But even theoretically pure communist societies have similar concerns and needs, even if couched in different terminology.

 

m

[jannusguy2]

Oh don't I know it...

 

I just don't want to go-off on a tangent as I'm inclinded to do in political debate... I get easily riled being a conservative minded individual surrounded and outnumbered here in uber-liberal New England. The Northeast is the poster-child for how not to cater to businesses (and society or civilization for that matter) small or large. They are treated as cash-cows to gang-rape at-will for every pet political pandering entitlement project they can fund and walk away from; taking manufactured credit and kudos for from those that win the politically correct lottery of socialist wealth redistribution...

 

Trust me, I get it!

 

It is the fault of politics and politicians that every good American thing is fleeing for parts unknown where they won't be used as a political revenue source pin-cushion to fund welfare bribery both corporate and to the illegal invasion that is being promoted for voter-block security by power mongering polititards of every persuasion...

 

It is patently unsustainable!

 

Without them fleeing our shores a guitar won't be attainable by the common man!

 

Lots o' folks complain about how much a Gibson costs vs other guitars... Hello... Can you say; "daylight working hours raid by automatic weapon armed para-military federal agents?"

 

Hmmm, I wonder if there's a connection Mr. Obvious???

 

Gibson said no to the insanity and we saw what happened...

So, is your soap box made of Sitka spruce, Adirondack spruce or cardboard? My guess is cardboard as it doesn't hold up.

[cookieman15061]

So, is your soap box made of Sitka spruce, Adirondack spruce or cardboard? My guess is cardboard as it doesn't hold up.

Gotta be rosewood.

[SteveFord]

Just so long as it isn't Richlite...

[cookieman15061]

We've certainly embraced that philosophy, whole heartedly!

 

CB

Speak for yourself CB.

It's not my philosophy.

[Bender 4 Life]

i'm going to say something that will be very unpopular, but, if the average American worker wasn't demanding $40 an hr, plus retirement and free healthcare for tightening 6 screws over and over on a daily basis, American products would become affordable again.

Yes, corporations are insanely greedy, but that's NOT ever going to change, but when you add in ridiculous salary, healthcare, 401k match, paid vacation, etc etc, making product costs companies a fortune,

Then, add in obscene management salaries and perks, advertisement, etc.....and is it any wonder that prices are nearly unpayable?

 

Now, look to other countries, where product is either made by prison labor, or by persons earning the equivalent of $5 a day w/no benefits.....and managers that live well on $40,000 a yr, that make decent useable products under the same name for 1/10-1/4 the price of the American version........considering the economy which do you REALLY think is going to sell more?

 

It's taken 50 yrs but we've done it to ourselves.....our workers are lazy, demanding, and in a large part unethical.....and our management is even worse.

WE THE PEOPLE......have priced ourselves into non competitiveness.

[charlie brown]

Speak for yourself CB.

It's not my philosophy.

 

Was thinking more of the current political, and corporate "big business" climate,

more than anyone here, personally.

 

But, come to think of it, any of us that have more guitars, amps, and

pedals than we actually need/use, might be considered "greedy" in a

different way, maybe? And yeah, including me!

 

CB

[Jimi Mac]

So, is your soap box made of Sitka spruce, Adirondack spruce or cardboard? My guess is cardboard as it doesn't hold up.

 

 

Gotta be rosewood.

 

Ebony or Rosewood!

 

And it holds-up just fine! It's built on the foundation of American Exceptionalism it was forged-from!

 

Just 'cause some folks don't like it don't mean it ain't real!

 

Bender's right about alot of what he says too! It's all politically tied-together... The truth is there to see for anyone with the balz to wanna know and see it starin' 'em in the face!

[jannusguy2]

Love it or leave it.

[milod]

There are some real problems in running a country like the U.S., Russia, China, India, Brazil... Canada even.

 

One major problem is that they're huge countries with different regional perspectives and challenges - yet there's an increasing tendency for central government to promulgate one-size-fits-all "solutions" in law and policy. In the U.S., the founding fathers saw that as a "given," and sought a system that would recognize regional needs. However, variables have added to the difficulty of maintaining that "balance" and we're tending to see the result in current politics that one might suggest is often "urban vs. rural" as well as "regional." That's not a value judgment, but something I think that analysts of most political stripes might agree with.

 

Economics are not at all simple. Running a small business or farm is far more expensive and complex today thanks to tax and regulation at all levels. I started a sports magazine in the '80s and ran it for 15 years - but were I to be those 35 years younger than I am today, I'd likely not even try, at least not if I knew what I know now about what has happened the past 20 years in terms of the hidden costs of taxes and regulation. I'd instead more likely go back to college in search of a government job.

 

China kinda gets around it with strong provincial governments, but they're having problems too with regional variations in profitability vs. regulation. Dunno that much about India, but there and in Brazil, "wage gap" and urbanization get dumped in the mix. Russia - I think they have problems not dissimilar to the US, except that in a time of extreme change, they're in far worse shape on policy. Canada "gets by" with a lot central governance in a hugely variable bunch of subcultures largely, IMHO, because of such a relatively small population and great natural resources, but... ain't all always smooth sailing.

 

The US simply can't figure at this point how to compromise among regional interests because they've become so heavily tied to "party" politics, too. Add the rise of urban majorities and perspectives along with the trend of centralized regulation which brings huge hidden costs, and it's no surprise to me that there would be an escapist perspective among businesses that can offshore production.

 

Does that make me happy? Of course not. But if anyone thinks that speeches or two or three national laws would make a difference, he or she is naive.

 

m

[cookieman15061]

There are some real problems in running a country like the U.S., Russia, China, India, Brazil... Canada even.

 

One major problem is that they're huge countries with different regional perspectives and challenges - yet there's an increasing tendency for central government to promulgate one-size-fits-all "solutions" in law and policy. In the U.S., the founding fathers saw that as a "given," and sought a system that would recognize regional needs. However, variables have added to the difficulty of maintaining that "balance" and we're tending to see the result in current politics that one might suggest is often "urban vs. rural" as well as "regional." That's not a value judgment, but something I think that analysts of most political stripes might agree with.

 

Economics are not at all simple. Running a small business or farm is far more expensive and complex today thanks to tax and regulation at all levels. I started a sports magazine in the '80s and ran it for 15 years - but were I to be those 35 years younger than I am today, I'd likely not even try, at least not if I knew what I know now about what has happened the past 20 years in terms of the hidden costs of taxes and regulation. I'd instead more likely go back to college in search of a government job.

 

China kinda gets around it with strong provincial governments, but they're having problems too with regional variations in profitability vs. regulation. Dunno that much about India, but there and in Brazil, "wage gap" and urbanization get dumped in the mix. Russia - I think they have problems not dissimilar to the US, except that in a time of extreme change, they're in far worse shape on policy. Canada "gets by" with a lot central governance in a hugely variable bunch of subcultures largely, IMHO, because of such a relatively small population and great natural resources, but... ain't all always smooth sailing.

 

The US simply can't figure at this point how to compromise among regional interests because they've become so heavily tied to "party" politics, too. Add the rise of urban majorities and perspectives along with the trend of centralized regulation which brings huge hidden costs, and it's no surprise to me that there would be an escapist perspective among businesses that can offshore production.

 

Does that make me happy? Of course not. But if anyone thinks that speeches or two or three national laws would make a difference, he or she is naive.

 

m

 

 

I still say rosewood! Dangblammit!!!

 

 

 

 

[Bender 4 Life]

Love it or leave it.

 

oh, I love it, and have served it proudly, but i'm also sick and damned tired of seeing 80% of todays workforce refusing to put their smartphone away long enough to do the job, let alone a GOOD job of it.......and demand ever higher wages for ever diminishing work effort.

 

love THAT?

[Jimi Mac]

There are some real problems in running a country like the U.S., Russia, China, India, Brazil... Canada even.

 

One major problem is that they're huge countries with different regional perspectives and challenges - yet there's an increasing tendency for central government to promulgate one-size-fits-all "solutions" in law and policy. In the U.S., the founding fathers saw that as a "given," and sought a system that would recognize regional needs. However, variables have added to the difficulty of maintaining that "balance" and we're tending to see the result in current politics that one might suggest is often "urban vs. rural" as well as "regional." That's not a value judgment, but something I think that analysts of most political stripes might agree with.

 

Economics are not at all simple. Running a small business or farm is far more expensive and complex today thanks to tax and regulation at all levels. I started a sports magazine in the '80s and ran it for 15 years - but were I to be those 35 years younger than I am today, I'd likely not even try, at least not if I knew what I know now about what has happened the past 20 years in terms of the hidden costs of taxes and regulation. I'd instead more likely go back to college in search of a government job.

 

China kinda gets around it with strong provincial governments, but they're having problems too with regional variations in profitability vs. regulation. Dunno that much about India, but there and in Brazil, "wage gap" and urbanization get dumped in the mix. Russia - I think they have problems not dissimilar to the US, except that in a time of extreme change, they're in far worse shape on policy. Canada "gets by" with a lot central governance in a hugely variable bunch of subcultures largely, IMHO, because of such a relatively small population and great natural resources, but... ain't all always smooth sailing.

 

The US simply can't figure at this point how to compromise among regional interests because they've become so heavily tied to "party" politics, too. Add the rise of urban majorities and perspectives along with the trend of centralized regulation which brings huge hidden costs, and it's no surprise to me that there would be an escapist perspective among businesses that can offshore production.

 

Does that make me happy? Of course not. But if anyone thinks that speeches or two or three national laws would make a difference, he or she is naive.

 

m

 

Spot-on!

 

Legislators that think a new law is the answer to everything to justify their status/position/job don't think about the consequences and fallout of a new law!

 

It's like when Obammy said "U can have your old policy back until we fix the F-ups with Obamacare..." Sorry Barry, but Obamacare is law, there is no possibility of going back, the old insurance policies simply don't exist anymore because they are scrapped because they didn't meet the criteria of the new "law"... It's akin to outlawing all paper money to go to say Platinum as the new currency... The law requires the destruction of all paper money, so we burn large reserves of paper money to comply with the new "law" and suddenly Barry says "Whoops, the new money machines aren't working we don't have the requisite Platinum to replace the paper money yet, go ahead back to paper money for now... Well that would be fine if it didn't go up in smoke already...

 

How does a law equate a healthcare and medical care system? Simply, it cannot! Anyone that thinks it can is short-sighted and untenably naive!

 

Health insurance policies require many legal agreements and contracts between many parties and entities and when those contracts are voided they simply no longer exist, you cannot simply go back, it literally doesn't exist any more!

 

Legislating every whim or popular fancy into law has never been an answer, let alone a good answer! We have shackled ourselves to failure by over-regulating every little thing and instead of repealing and starting over, we simply pass another bill that cannot possibly address all the dynamics or needs! It is dooming us to an impotent self-imposed slavery...

 

And BTW, I love America to the core, and I'll stack that up against anyone's similar claim; anywhere, anytime!!!

[badbluesplayer]

You guys say the same stuff over and over and over.

 

Blaming everybody for something. I don't even know what we're blaming people for. 'Cause Ovations are out of style? Cause Fender owns a bunch of troubled brands? Was that "His" fault too? You guys'd blame him if your farts smell bad.

 

You guys in the back row sit up straight and stop being hoodlums or I'll give you all an economics quiz right now.