SteveFord Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 If you've ever wondered what they were talking about: http://www.gibson.co...016/Custom.aspx I, for one, am holding out for the Historically3 series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 I think they're doing the right thing. Only time (and sales figures) will tell. No weight relief [thumbup] . And I'd like one though they're not cheap. Yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 I've never seen so much BS. The things they say 'Multi-Step Setup Process', 'Vintage Body Radiuses and Edges Throughout and Vintage Cutaway Contour and Body Thickness'. So all of the other Les Paul's of the last 20 years are sh*t and wrong? The body of it is the same as it has been for decades. As glue and procedures get better, the guitar should be better. Why do they need different tiers of them? According to their spiel all of the Sig and CC models are wrong. On the Gibson site there are 22 different 59 Les Paul's ranging from $6332 to $13500. That's $7168 difference for the same guitar. A 59 spec Les Paul. All are made in the Custom shop so quality and wood should be the same. So what makes a guitar thousands more? Just profiteering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Yeah its just nonsense... I think the idea is that instead of paying £100,000 for i.e. a real 59 standard, these guitars are the nearest thing you will get to owning the real thing but at a fraction of that price... Of course it doesn't make it a better guitar.. BUT if you are into that and want that detail, well I guess that's who they are made for (and obviously if money is not an issue for you)... I don't hate.. id just never buy one myself unless I won the lottery or something... Until then I will just have to make do with non historic Gibsons.. Poor me how will I live with myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 " I, for one, am holding out for the Historically3 series." at the very least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 How historically correct is not right or wrong, it's a matter of effort. The more we learn what IS the EXACT details of the vintage individual guitars, the more effort it takes to duplicate exactly. The more effort put into it, the more it's gonna cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 How historically correct is not right or wrong, it's a matter of effort. The more we learn what IS the EXACT details of the vintage individual guitars, the more effort it takes to duplicate exactly. The more effort put into it, the more it's gonna cost. But...wait. In the early-mid 90's, when we were first treated to that awful "R9", "R8" bullsh1t they claimed to have made these historic re-issues EXACTLY as the old ones, down to the actual weight of each guitar. The newsgroups were full of people weighing and comparing their "R9"s to see who got closest to the "sweet spot" of Les Paul weight. These guitars were "indistinguishable from the originals", said guys on usenet that had never even seen an original. Within 2 years they had everyone saying "R9" and they had even more precisely exact exactly precise knock-offs of their own guitars. If I paid for one of these things and had to keep seeing the ever more precisedness of the rendering I'd be sitting with a real pile of stool today, that's how much "better" they get every iteration. They really are just guitars you know, there is no magic there. A decent Les Paul in competent hands is what made all the great records we all love so much and strive to mimic. Micrometers and postal scales had nothing whatsoever to do with it. That's been my story for a very long time and it will die with me. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 But...wait. In the early-mid 90's, when we were first treated to that awful "R9", "R8" bullsh1t they claimed to have made these historic re-issues EXACTLY as the old ones, down to the actual weight of each guitar. The newsgroups were full of people weighing and comparing their "R9"s to see who got closest to the "sweet spot" of Les Paul weight. These guitars were "indistinguishable from the originals", said guys on usenet that had never even seen an original. Within 2 years they had everyone saying "R9" and they had even more precisely exact exactly precise knock-offs of their own guitars. If I paid for one of these things and had to keep seeing the ever more precisedness of the rendering I'd be sitting with a real pile of stool today, that's how much "better" they get every iteration. They really are just guitars you know, there is no magic there. A decent Les Paul in competent hands is what made all the great records we all love so much and strive to mimic. Micrometers and postal scales had nothing whatsoever to do with it. That's been my story for a very long time and it will die with me. rct Well, first off, as a disclaimer, I don't know that "more accurate" is any better or worse than another. Also I haven't seen, felt, inspected, or compared these and therefore have NO OPINION whatsoever IF they are "accurate", OR worth the money. So...So what? IF they made or make a more accurate reproduction, does that make all the previous ones less so? Does it make them any less good? I don't think so. In fact, I think it's actually quite silly to think of ANY reproduction as perfect and 100% accurate. That's a tall order. There will ALWAYS be details that will be learned and found. All this works both ways, too. At one point about 15-20 years ago, Fender was making guitars really close to being really accurate, and now the reproductions are LESS accurate than what they used to make, and more money! It's an art, and a hobby in itself. While you or I might have our own criteria for good or bad, one thing for sure is we have ALL benefited from nuts taking an interest and TRYING to make the most accurate reproductions possible, as a lot of the quality we enjoy today is what was learned from taking us out of the Norlin era and everything "wrong" with those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Well, first off, as a disclaimer, I don't know that "more accurate" is any better or worse than another. Also I haven't seen, felt, inspected, or compared these and therefore have NO OPINION whatsoever IF they are "accurate", OR worth the money. So...So what? IF they made or make a more accurate reproduction, does that make all the previous ones less so? Does it make them any less good? I don't think so. In fact, I think it's actually quite silly to think of ANY reproduction as perfect and 100% accurate. That's a tall order. There will ALWAYS be details that will be learned and found. All this works both ways, too. At one point about 15-20 years ago, Fender was making guitars really close to being really accurate, and now the reproductions are LESS accurate than what they used to make, and more money! It's an art, and a hobby in itself. While you or I might have our own criteria for good or bad, one thing for sure is we have ALL benefited from nuts taking an interest and TRYING to make the most accurate reproductions possible, as a lot of the quality we enjoy today is what was learned from taking us out of the Norlin era and everything "wrong" with those. The constant iterations of ever more accurate Les Pauls benefits the company only. The only people interested in that are people interested in having a more accurate Les Paul than their buddy. The rest of us just want a decent guitar in something other than sunburst for say, I don't know, is $2500 retail fair today? That's all. These aspirations to historic perfection do nothing but pull the prices of the ordinary guitars up, same scam they've all been running for decades now. Put a perfectly re-produced Pre-War Martin, R9,or Leo built Esquire into the hands of someone not so experienced and they all pretty much sound like crap. Don't get me wrong, I think it is perfectly reasonable to have a perfectly reasonable portion of your business tied up in accurate reproduction of our legacy, that's just fine. As for Norlin, CBS too, an awful lot of great records got made using those guitars. Nothing inspires spending more money than getting away from some imagined dark ages of guitar making. There wasn't one. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Seems to me that these days there is no single "stock" LP, Strat or Tele. I am bewildered by all the Strat variants in particular. But I think Gibson have got this right - they are reproducing some of their most legendary designs, paying attention to detail (I don't think that's BS) and charging more for it. So they did it before (starting with the Heritage series of LPs which are still quite sought after) and they are doing it again - well of course - why does that matter? It's a BRAND with an historic name and rep, but in the 21st century marketplace now. Consider the price of some 'artist' models which are more. How much would an 'exact' repro vintage car cost? (I know nothing about vintage cars) Quite a lot I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 The guy in the back of the bar will never know if you are playing a historically correct Gibson or an Epiphone ... just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 I've always wondered about the real "Historic" accuracy, of any of those models. Because, it would depend on which guitar, of that era, they chose to copy? They were all a bit different, regardless of the original "blueprint" or "template." More "hand made" then, with all the irregularities, that would entail. So, WHICH spec's, or version, IS truly "Historic?" It's really just "Marketing," beyond some (possible) tweaking of some details, (headstock shapes, rolled finger board edges, "long neck tenons, etc.) that more "approximate" of one/or more, of the originals. Sure, there are differences, from 50's and the 1960 model. But, even within those various years, they differed a bit, if for no other reason than they were more "hand built," back then. Technology has made it much easier/simpler to be more consistent, nowadays. But, even so, no 2 necks are exactly alike, as they are "hand shaped," still. So, paying thousands more dollars, per guitar, for a minimal amount of difference is a bit of a "Fool's Errand," IMHO. You are as likely to find a awesome sounding and playing Les Paul, in the USA variety, as with the CS versions. But, there's always that "Mystic" and feeling, that you're getting something "better," the more you pay for it. This is not even limited to Gibson, or guitars. It's Marketing, for all kinds of goods, and services. I've had some experiences, buying Gibson's all these years, with this very thing. My SG "Original" is a much nicer/"better" guitar, than the CS version, that I played along side it, and which was 2000 dollars more, in nearly every detail. I had the money, at the time, to buy the CS version, so finances were not the issue, when making that purchase. I've (personally) always felt, that the Gibson USA models should be made (normally) like the CS models are made, spec wise. And the CS should be for very limited editions, "one of kind," or special order versions/models, that the normal production couldn't/wouldn't normally produce, due to production schedules, etc. But the "Quality" of overall workmanship, correct="best" parts, fit and finish, should be the same. But, that's just Me! So...??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 The guy in the back of the bar will never know if you are playing a historically correct Gibson or an Epiphone ... just sayin' Agree and would you want to risk taking an expensive guitar like that out and getting a ding or much worse? You'd have to insure. I take my nice LP out, it's insured. I have to - no point in having the thing if I don't gig with it far as I'm concerned. And OTOH perhaps someone in the audience does know a bit about guitars, there are a lot of guitarists out there and we don't always introduce ourselves (playing or not! ) @CB - You would be paying for the very best they can make. I'm fairly certain that as LPs go these will be top-notch. Agree with what you say about 'Custom Shop' should be, too; but it doesn't really mean much any more as so many mfrs have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 I've (personally) always felt, that the Gibson USA models should be made (normally) like the CS models are made, spec wise. And the CS should be for very limited editions, "one of kind," or special order versions/models, that the normal production couldn't/wouldn't normally produce, due to production schedules, etc. But the "Quality" of overall workmanship, correct="best" parts, fit and finish, should be the same. But, that's just Me! Not just you. That makes a ton of sense. I agree and I think a lot of others would too. Though we are not Gibson executives, so what do we know? ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Well, I guess I just meant that Gibson (IMHO) should be more like PRS, only in that there's no real difference, in their USA made models, quality wise. Sure, there are differences in the spec's, and models. But, not in overall quality. IF they have a Custom Shop, they don't advertise it, as such...but, I know they make special editions, or "one of kind" versions, for those that require that. As to being "sure" you're getting the absolute best, Gibson can produce? I don't necessarily think that's true. My previously related SG "Original" story, is proof enough, for me. And, just to be clear, I'm NOT "bashing" CS guitars, at all! Many ARE outstanding! But then, so are many Gibson USA models. The thing they all have in common, is their individuality, even within the same models/spec's. What I do question, is the vast (sometimes insane...IMHO) price differences, between the Gibson USA versions, and CS versions. A little difference, maybe...but, not in the thousands of dollars! If it's that "precious," it should come in a hermetically sealed glass display case! I just don't buy into the idea that you have to pay many thousands of dollars, for a "better" Les Paul, or SG, ES, etc. It's like they continue to try to marginalize even their loyal fan base, buy catering to that "elitist" mentality, even more. And, laughing all the way to the bank, in the process. But, again..that's just my opinion, and we all know about "opinions!" And, don't even get me started on Fender! Cheers, CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I love historic Les Pauls because they are great sounding/feeling/looking guitars but I don't care for Gibson's marketing. I never once craved or bought a reissue because of it's 1950s association. Few USA models I have played measure up but they are out there. As for you guys who complain about new prices, look at the flip side, if guys continually want Gibson's newest offering, that means fewer people will pay top dollar for older models with less accurate specs making them more affordable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I dont know of course, but this is the way it 'seems' to me. Its easy for a successful guitar maker to add a budget tier to the range. Find a Far Eastern manufacturing plant and supply designs & quality system. As per Sqier, Epiphone, SE etc. Adding an upper tier to tempt people who have a lot of disposable income takes more imagination. Enter Custom Shop/ Private Stock etc. I am not saying these instruments are some sort of con. I have not played one (that I can recall anyway). But I'm quite sure that the law of diminishing returns has to be measured on a microscopic level where they are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I dont know of course, but this is the way it 'seems' to me. Its easy for a successful guitar maker to add a budget tier to the range. Find a Far Eastern manufacturing plant and supply designs & quality system. As per Sqier, Epiphone, SE etc. Adding an upper tier to tempt people who have a lot of disposable income takes more imagination. Enter Custom Shop/ Private Stock etc. I am not saying these instruments are some sort of con. I have not played one (that I can recall anyway). But I'm quite sure that the law of diminishing returns has to be measured on a microscopic level where they are concerned. But...wait...but that "upper tier" is just making them like they did 60 years ago. Somebody tell me what's so freakin hard about that that I have to pay them three, four times the money for a good les paul to get a good les paul made exactly like they used to make them before we all even knew they were good les pauls? rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 But...wait...but that "upper tier" is just making them like they did 60 years ago. Somebody tell me what's so freakin hard about that that I have to pay them three, four times the money for a good les paul to get a good les paul made exactly like they used to make them before we all even knew they were good les pauls? rct Certainly (I agree I opened this up beyond Gibson). Also, nobody can agree on what period guitars were 'better or best'. Nevertheless anybody here can write advertising copy for this sort of guitar. Just liberally sprinkle some of these phrases & words in: Period correct Hallowed authentic vintage historic appointments historically accurate legendary convincing classic playing experience Vintage Original Spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveFord Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 Don't forget Vintage Aroma. I imagine that would be a musty case smell to simulate years of living under weird Cousin Bob's bed in the basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I love how the web site describes the newer versions as "the most historically correct YET!" LOL So, next year's models will be even MORE "historically correct," and ever MORE expensive??! WTF??! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I love how the web site describes the newer versions as "the most historically correct YET!" LOL So, next year's models will be even MORE "historically correct," and ever MORE expensive??! WTF??! CB Perhaps in 10 years time there will be a reissue of this years historically correct version? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Perhaps in 10 years time there will be a reissue of this years historically correct version? ;) Well, Fender did that with the "Blues Deluxe" reissue. I don't have a really high opinion of them, but reissuing something made like crap using crap methods is more accurate than reissuing the older stuff using the same crap methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmis Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 I own what must be the most historically correct Gibson available, a 50s tribute SG, huh, the SG wasn´t even released back in the 50s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Well, they keep doing it, and substantially upping the prices, each generation, as well... so, they must be selling them, at least to the well heeled "cork sniffers!" Frankly, if it's the upper crust buyers, they're really after, why not make all Gibson's "Custom Shop," at 10 Grand+ a pop! Leave the Asian made "Epiphones" for us lowly "working musicians?" (JUST KIDDING!) CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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