Jinder Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 This is a topic I’d like to debate. I last bought a new Gibson in 2016, my SJ200. It’s my primary live instrument and has been on a great many sessions for both myself and other artists. It’s a 2015, and, whilst I played, had been superseded by the revamped model with the Anthem etc fitted by the time I bought it, so got a very good deal on it (£2500 new). Now, in the UK the SJ200 Standard sells for £4399. That’s $5330. The Studio for around a grand less. A standard style non-cut J185 anywhere from £3200 to £3800. Even a J45, the “Workhorse”, is a good way north of £2000. Below that there are the G45 and the Sustainable models etc, but to get your hands on a “real” Gibson is almost impossible for the working musician. To give this some context, I am a musical odd job man-I’m a songwriter for myself and other acts, recording artist, session player/singer, touring artist, function band musician, MD, guitar tech and tour manager. I’ve worked in music full time for 25yrs and am not workshy-I’m always doing something. I cannot ever see a time, especially in the post-Covid restrictions world, when I would ever be able to afford to buy a new Gibson again. Used, perhaps…but the new prices are absolutely unattainable for us road dogs who are out there working in music full time. I find this impossibly disappointing for Gibson themselves-their guitars have been in the hands of so many emerging artists over the last century, and they have essentially written themselves out of that reality going forwards. I KNOW Gibson have always been a premium product, but for owning one to now be beyond the bounds of aspiration for those who could actually use a solid, world class instrument is sad, to me at least. If I was in the position I was in 20yrs ago now, I’d be playing an Epi IBG model and not my first SJ200, the guitar that changed my life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhanners623 Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I guess somebody is paying that kind of money because Gibson keeps offering guitars with price tags that are arguably hefty. When I bought my J-35 in 2016, I thought its price of $1,600 was relatively affordable. At Sweetwater, an SJ-200 will set you back $5,299 (£4,368). The average American monthly salary is $4,422 (£3,645) and keep in mind all that comes out of that, like healthcare, rent/mortgage, food, taxes and cruises to the Bahamas. So if you want an SJ-200, it is going to cost you more than a month’s pay. Some people are comfortable living with debt. I’m not, so I don’t. If you’re a pro, I understand the need and desire for pro gear. But I think there are some really nice and affordable instruments available today that are both “pro” and roadworthy; they just don’t say “Gibson” or “Martin” on the headstock. We just have to come to terms with how we feel about where they are built. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalex Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I suspect a lot of folks go the financing route. You can pay $221/month for 24 months and get yourself an SJ-200. So why purchasing outright is probably not an option for many folks there is a way to get a guitar you've always dreamed of owning. If people want something they'll find a way to get it. Though I agree prices are I insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) This must be a rough time to buy any US products in the UK with such a strong dollar, it has gone up about 14% relative to the pound in the past 12 months. I also see predictions that the dollar and euro will reach parity by the end of the summer. Edited July 4, 2022 by Boyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 There are two sides to this equation. While the manufacturing costs go up - material, labor, all costs of production - the consumption side of the music business is broken. Artists get laughably little income from streaming - physical sales of CDs, vinyl and the like are tough. - Seems to me you tour, or go broke. House concerts, music venues, and the like. And perhaps biggest of all is figuring out how to produce, promote and monetize your presence on the internet - building engagements and followers and the related advertiser clicks. If folks on Tic-Tok / YouTube can generate 5 figure incomes from the videos they post, performing artists need to figure out how to play the game. I don't know how, but its a wholly different world. Guitar manufacturers make their dough selling to working stiffs like me - hundreds of thousands of us - and we tend to pay attention to instrument brands and models that our favorite artists play. But the competition for endorsement deals is probably unrealistic for most working artists - but perhaps there's room for a true artists discount - after all, I think that's where the best promotion of an instrument brand comes from. Complicated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Since 2009, I've bought many (40+) new guitars. Mainly Gibson and Martin. It used to be easier, calculate 40% of MSRP and find a 5 Star dealer that would sell it for that price and get it. Since the pandemic and supply shortage it has gotten more difficult but not impossible. Dealers do not deal as much for in stock guitars because they're flying off the walls. I don't think that's going to change unless the in stock supply replenishes, if that ever happens. Additionally, the MSRP is no longer listed which makes it a little more difficult. Gibson now lists the guitars on their site at the MAP which is elevated percentage-wise than pre-pandemic . I've found the M2M option to be a much better route if you don't mind the wait. Dealers are more open to negotiating prices when you put a down payment or full cost payment when you order. They do not have any money tied up in the guitar. M2M can be as simple as changing one feature on a standard model which may not affect the MSRP. or just ordering an out of production model. Using this method, I feel I could order a new J200 and it come in within $200 of what I paid 10 years ago for a J200. Just something to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) If you want the real truth - Gibson probably doesn't care. They know there are people with enough money to buy their guitars, and if you can't, another person will. Gibson are still here, and almost went under a few times, but didn't like Guitar Center, still around. As a thanks for keeping them around they will build guitars you want at prices you can't afford. End of story. Edited July 4, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Rolex and Rolls Royce make products I can't afford. Even 'used'. But I don't want them to go under. Bozeman has finite space, people and equipment. Limited quantities = higher relative demand = higher prices. I would be curious how a price for a J45 has performed to standards like the Whopper, or the F-150. Regardless, it is unfortunate that New Retail prices are out of reach of at least 90% of us. Back in the day of starving artists - they would have to paint over previous paintings when they couldn't afford new canvas. Money doesn't always flow in the direction you think it should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalex Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) As long as people can finance Gibson's they'll keep on selling them. The actually MSRP is irrelevant. Just like buying a vehicle, it's all about the monthly payment. Buyers just think a hundred bucks a month for a couple of years to get a J-45 no problem. Edited July 4, 2022 by Jalex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 It used to be that only guitar players bought expensive, good guitars. Now they sell them to anybody and everybody. The McMansion impresses the co-workers so much more when there is a $5000 guitar on a stand in the small family room, just another piece of furniture, another I Have. I've seen it myself, many times. rct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG4927 Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 32 minutes ago, rct said: The McMansion impresses the co-workers so much more when ... rct Dentist guitars? Lawyers in love The old Delta blues players couldn't afford the nice Gibsons, so they bought the ladder braced off brands and ended up immortalizing a tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I don't know. It seems that for much of my life I played "tag your it" with guitars because it seems every time my wallet got fatter Gibson would match it with a price increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) Really not sure, but I think I paid about $375 for my J-50 Deluxe in 1974, although it might have been a little more. The CPI Inflation Calculator says that would be $2,352 today. The 60's Original J-50 sells for $2600 at Sweetwater today (last year Gibson bumped it up by $100 from the original $2500 price). Anyway, that is not so terribly different after all these years - $2,600 is the equivalent of $434 in 1974. I don't know... would a J-45 or J-50 not be good enough for a "working musician"? If somebody could afford a $400 guitar in 1974, are the economics such that they couldn't afford $2,600 in 2022? Edited July 4, 2022 by Boyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, JWG4927 said: Dentist guitars? Lawyers in love The old Delta blues players couldn't afford the nice Gibsons, so they bought the ladder braced off brands and ended up immortalizing a tone. Not always the case. Son House once noted in an interview he could earn as much in one recording session as he could working the fields for a year. A popular artist like Charley Patton got paid $40 to $50 per side and could rake in $300 per session. H.C. Speir who ran a music store and recording studio in Jackson, MS and who served as a "talent scout" for the record companies once recalled the players tended to steer away from Gibsons and Martins because they would not hold up to life on the road. Guitars such as the Oscar Scmidt Stellas were not only cheap but could be found for sale everywhere, sounded good and were sturdy enough to stand up to anything you could throw at them. Edited July 4, 2022 by zombywoof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 28 minutes ago, Boyd said: Really not sure, but I think I paid about $375 for my J-50 Deluxe in 1974, although it might have been a little more. The CPI Inflation Calculator says that would be $2,352 today. The 60's Original J-50 sells for $2600 at Sweetwater today (last year Gibson bumped it up by $100 from the original $2500 price). Anyway, that is not so terribly different after all these years - $2,600 is the equivalent of $434 in 1974. I don't know... would a J-45 or J-50 not be good enough for a "working musician"? If somebody could afford a $400 guitar in 1974, are the economics such that they couldn't afford $2,600 in 2022? Makes sense. Also add the headaches of Rosewood, Mahogany, Ebony and such due to the same people who want higher fuel prices. I have a deep respect for my Walnut J-15 and figured that would be the future of affordable Gibsons. I think it was like $1400.00 U.S. back around 2018 or so, It's my Walnut J-45. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 There is the working guitarist playing pop and then there is the working blues guitarist.... Nothing but whining whiners! 😁 Go buy them while you can. Have a look at the price here - almost double! https://skymusic.com.au/collections/guitars/products/gibson-custom-shop-1952-j185-vintage-sunburst https://skymusic.com.au/collections/guitars/products/gibson-hummingbird-vintage-cherry-sunburst-2019 https://skymusic.com.au/collections/guitars/products/gibson-j-45-standard-vintage-sunburst BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 9 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Have a look at the price here - almost double! I don't understand your math. One Australian dollar is only worth 68 cents in US dollars at current exchange rate, so that $4799 AUD J-45 Standard would be $3263 USD. The same guitar goes for $2849 at Sweetwater in the US. So you are paying 14.5% more, which doesn't seem too unreasonable considering international shipping/fees. Looks like you had parity with the US Dollar back in 2011 and it has gone way down since then. I don't think we could blame Gibson for that. 🙂 https://www.macrotrends.net/2551/australian-us-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 36 minutes ago, Boyd said: Looks like you had parity with the US Dollar back in 2011 and it has gone way down since then. I don't think we could blame Gibson for that. 🙂 Gibsons are an inflation hedge. Like gold and silver. The worse the economy gets, the more they're worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 "Nothing but whining whiners! 😁" Not sure what this means... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, fortyearspickn said: "Nothing but whining whiners! 😁" Not sure what this means... It's like "losing losers". Or, maybe "Winning winners". Or "broccoli eating broccoli eaters" "dumb dummies" I can go on.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Boyd said: I don't understand your math. One Australian dollar is only worth 68 cents in US dollars at current exchange rate, so that $4799 AUD J-45 Standard would be $3263 USD. The same guitar goes for $2849 at Sweetwater in the US. So you are paying 14.5% more, which doesn't seem too unreasonable considering international shipping/fees. Looks like you had parity with the US Dollar back in 2011 and it has gone way down since then. I don't think we could blame Gibson for that. 🙂 https://www.macrotrends.net/2551/australian-us-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart Uh, you don’t like my rubbery accounting? All the same $4799 is still $4799 here. For a standard dread/jumbo... The locally made Cole Clark and Maton have mid range dreads for about $2,200....both makes with sensational pickup systems included, so you really, really have to want that Gibson J45 Standard. (I got my 2002 J50 at a pawn shop for about $2500 a couple of years ago). BluesKing777. Edited July 5, 2022 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyd Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 Things are only getting worse for international Gibson lovers, the Euro just hit a 20 year low against the dollar at less than $1.03. I was visiting a friend in the EU back in 2014 when it was peaking at almost $1.40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 If you’re a young, good looking, super talented, a highly motivated self starter, outstanding Singer, Dancer, ultra Tech savvy, total extrovert, with fantastic charisma, charm, personality it would still be tough to make Money in the Music Industry today. My advice if you want to make Money don’t become a Musician.. If you’ve already got Money, by all means, become a Musician.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhanners623 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 13 minutes ago, Larsongs said: If you’re a young, good looking, super talented, a highly motivated self starter, outstanding Singer, Dancer, ultra Tech savvy, total extrovert, with fantastic charisma, charm, personality it would still be tough to make Money in the Music Industry today. My advice if you want to make Money don’t become a Musician.. If you’ve already got Money, by all means, become a Musician.. To re-purpose a saying I’ve heard applied to farming, “You can make a small fortune in the music industry. Unfortunately, you have to start with a large fortune….” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 2 hours ago, dhanners623 said: To re-purpose a saying I’ve heard applied to farming, “You can make a small fortune in the music industry. Unfortunately, you have to start with a large fortune….” I remember a Steve Martin quote, Something like; How YOU too can become a MILLIONAIRE!!!! First… get $1 million dollars then………… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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