Thoughts on the tone of trapeze-tailpiece guitars versus stud-mounted

[Sheepdog1969]

Merciful-evans asked for this discussion, so let's not disappoint.  Assuming all other things being the same, (admittedly tough to do), how do you think tone is different on guitars with trapeze-tailpieces compared to guitars with stud-mounted ones? Does "edge tension" versus "middle tension" truly change the tonal quality of a guitar? Any thoughts?

[Murph]

I think "everything" changes tone.

Some a lot, some a little.

Some for better, some for worse.

I "knew" a semi hollow, like my ES-339 would sound different than my SG, but "how" was hard to determine. And describe...

[Pinch]

What's a trapeze tailpiece? A Floyd? 

[Whitefang]

14 minutes ago, Pinch said:

What's a trapeze tailpiece? A Floyd? 

Something like this maybe....

                                                                               

 

Whitefang

[Pinch]

19 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Something like this maybe....

                                                                               

 

Whitefang

Oh... Okay. I'm guessing it makes the sound about 4" longer then. 

Don't think I've seen one of those in the wild. 

[Whitefang]

I've only had one guitar that had that sort of tailpiece.   A $15.00  no-name piece o' crap that had a sound no different type of string holder would improve.

Whitefang

[kidblast]

my ES135 came stock with a trapeze,  the guitar has Gibson Classic 57s.   It sounded pretty nice, but the TP did make some noise on certain notes.

Then I decided to put a Bigsby B7 on there and ditch the trapeze tail piece.   The difference in the transformation of tone was massive to my ears.

 

[jdgm]

I have 3 trapeze tailpiece semis, one of which is an ES-175 with a Bigsby.  All have bridges on wooden bases which are held in place by the string tension. 

The feel is different and the sound is too, depending on how your guitar is set up, the bridge material (wood or metal), mounting and length of string between bridge and tailpiece.

I have had one of these guitars since 1979. The break angle across the bridge is shallow (of course, most trapeze tails do this) and the strings behind the bridge pick up considerable resonance, to the extent that I put a piece of felt there to stop it.   Also did this on the 175. 

The Bigsby changes the feel again from a regular trapeze tail 175 (I've  compared mine with a friends) and I feel as if I'm fighting it a bit, but that might change with different strings.  Bigsby users - lighter or heavier strings?   Tape/flatwound or regular?    I have a Reverend 'soft-touch' spring in there so I might change that back too at some point.

My experience is also that trapeze tailpiece guitars generally do not - or may not - sustain a note acoustically as long as a stop tail guitar.  YMMV.

I am unfamiliar with the terms edge tension and middle tension. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by jdgm

[kidblast]

19 hours ago, jdgm said:

 

The Bigsby changes the feel again from a regular trapeze tail 175 (I've  compared mine with a friends) and I feel as if I'm fighting it a bit, but that might change with different strings.  Bigsby users - lighter or heavier strings?   Tape/flatwound or regular?    I have a Reverend 'soft-touch' spring in there so I might change that back too at some point.

 

I'm just using 10s,  same strings as I have on all my electrics. (xl110s)

I have a LP, and SG, the 135 and a Gretsch all with Bigsbys.  the Gretsch doesn't have a roller bar that the strings pass under before going over the bridge

the LP and SG are installed via a Vibrate, which lifst the bigsby up off the top about 1/8  the 135 I installed the B7 directly, the gretsch cam stock with the B60, which is a B6 but made in Asia

the rest do have the roller bar.

I think that may make a difference in string tension. 

I tried to soft touch spring, it didn't make a world of difference for me, it's noticable, but I can't say if it's a big plus, a minus ,, more like  - different?

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by kidblast

[jdgm]

Found this -

 

[sparquelito]

In my opinion........

😐

[kidblast]

That video talks about all the things I've learned since using the Bigsby's.  I think he's pretty much "right" on all points

I found I do have to refresh the lubricant every now and then as it does tend to dry up / wear off.

But the beeswax is a great idea.. I've used Nut Sauce which is great, but 15 / 20 bucks for the small about they pack in there, is a bit of a rip off.

 

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Here is one on a '67 ES-225TD. I hated the tailpeice. Light as a feather, the P-90's hummed and  squealed like a banshee when close to an amp, and it would not stay in tune. 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[Pinch]

17 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Here is one on a '67 ES-225TD. I hated the tailpeice, and the bridge that did not stay in place, and you had to devise a way to keep it where it is. Like not changing all the strings at once, or putting blue tape where the bridge is, so it can go back in the same spot if intonated correctly. Light as a feather, the P-90's hummed and  squealed like a banshee when close to an amp, and it would not stay in tune. 

 

I can even make out the album titles! Although I first thought "Concert for Bangladesh" was "Concert for Bananarama". 

[Sgt. Pepper]

8 minutes ago, Pinch said:

I can even make out the album titles! Although I first thought "Concert for Bangladesh" was "Concert for Bananarama". 

Yeah I have seen those albums for years and know what is what. I can tell right where The Grateful Dead - Skull And Roses is. If you can spot it you can even see I have culture. There is the opera Carmen by Bizet.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Sgt. Pepper

[sparquelito]

Sweetwater has this one with a trapeze bridge for just $2,700. 

🙂



I'm gonna shut up now. 
😞
 

[merciful-evans]

The trapeze style tailpiece purpose was to respect the sanctity of the acoustic chamber. ie;  keep stuff out of it ! It attaches to the tail pin so it doesn't have to invade the chamber. Same with the bridge & pickup in this 1st pic. The wooden bridge is held in place by string tension only (as per jdgm's description). The pickup is attached to the pickguard. This was obsessive in guitar design once. When you take all that trouble to build a large resonating chamber, you don't spoil it by putting things inside it.

Pic #1 the tail piece is hidden by the ebony cover. The cover also helps to mute the metal tail piece resonance (its not always wanted) 

 

Pic #2 is also a fully hollow body (I no longer have it) with a plain trapeze tail piece. This time screws invade the body.

 Pic #3

Not a trapeze, but a 'finger' tail piece. The fingers have adjustment screws. This HRF iii is semi-hollowbody so the acoustic chamber is hopelessly violated already. So why mount it outside the body? I dont know. Maybe Howard Roberts or Gibson do?

The trapeze (uncovered) can resonate (sympathetic) at certain pitches. It never bothered me with the Epi Casino Coupe (Pic #2).

I never considered the sustain difference between trapeze and invasive designs (tune-o-matic). I assumed more material mass  added sustain. I'll keep it in mind though.

I think sustain is impeded by the floating wooden bridge. It has minimal mass and density and makes minimal contact with the body. I think the resultant dampened tone is part of what makes a traditional archtop (Pic #1) so nice. Its a soft bell like tone. Consider the difference between a piano tone (felt covered hammers) and a harpsicord. The archtop chamber focuses the midrange (or minimises the top & bottom) to complete it. 

Its one reason (among others) I don't chase sustain.

[merciful-evans]

I use (brackets) too much

[Sheepdog1969]

On 10/23/2022 at 7:58 AM, merciful-evans said:

The trapeze style tailpiece purpose was to respect the sanctity of the acoustic chamber. ie;  keep stuff out of it ! It attaches to the tail pin so it doesn't have to invade the chamber. Same with the bridge & pickup in this 1st pic. The wooden bridge is held in place by string tension only (as per jdgm's description). The pickup is attached to the pickguard. This was obsessive in guitar design once. When you take all that trouble to build a large resonating chamber, you don't spoil it by putting things inside it.

Pic #1 the tail piece is hidden by the ebony cover. The cover also helps to mute the metal tail piece resonance (its not always wanted) 

 

Pic #2 is also a fully hollow body (I no longer have it) with a plain trapeze tail piece. This time screws invade the body.

 Pic #3

Not a trapeze, but a 'finger' tail piece. The fingers have adjustment screws. This HRF iii is semi-hollowbody so the acoustic chamber is hopelessly violated already. So why mount it outside the body? I dont know. Maybe Howard Roberts or Gibson do?

The trapeze (uncovered) can resonate (sympathetic) at certain pitches. It never bothered me with the Epi Casino Coupe (Pic #2).

I never considered the sustain difference between trapeze and invasive designs (tune-o-matic). I assumed more material mass  added sustain. I'll keep it in mind though.

I think sustain is impeded by the floating wooden bridge. It has minimal mass and density and makes minimal contact with the body. I think the resultant dampened tone is part of what makes a traditional archtop (Pic #1) so nice. Its a soft bell like tone. Consider the difference between a piano tone (felt covered hammers) and a harpsicord. The archtop chamber focuses the midrange (or minimises the top & bottom) to complete it. 

Its one reason (among others) I don't chase sustain.

Thanks so much for the detailed info. Not sure which I enjoyed more, the data or the guitar pics!

[Sheepdog1969]

I have a 1950 something Harmony "F-hole" acoustic with a trapeze tail piece. (I haven't done any research on it) It was my Grandpa's, (who could pick up ANY instrument, and learn to play it almost immediately, and who played with his parents and siblings in bars growing up literally so they could eat.). It was left to my father, when he died, but it just sat and never got played. My Dad had told me that it was broken, because the bridge was not attached to the guitar. Decades ago, I cleaned it up with Murphy's wood oil soap and Old English wood oil, and strung it with the lightest acoustic strings I could find. I just set the bridge in the same spot it looked to have originally been in, but did not "attach it", (with glue or what ever), because it was obvious that it had never been "attached". I used the "lightest strings" I could find, because the bridge was so tall on the arched topped beast, that the resulting high "action" made it nearly impossible to play beyond the 5th fret.  Some in my family claimed that, "it is a rhythm guitar, and Grandpa only played chords on it below the 5th fret.", (a "Three chords and the Truth" guitar). I would love to put a lower bridge on it, and somehow work out the intonation issues with said change, but I'm not sure if that is possible/practical.  It is a beautiful instrument, but the light strings destroy it's tone, and it's hard to play even with light strings. Any thoughts?

[merciful-evans]

9 hours ago, Sheepdog1969 said:

I have a 1950 something Harmony "F-hole" acoustic with a trapeze tail piece. (I haven't done any research on it) It was my Grandpa's, (who could pick up ANY instrument, and learn to play it almost immediately, and who played with his parents and siblings in bars growing up literally so they could eat.). It was left to my father, when he died, but it just sat and never got played. My Dad had told me that it was broken, because the bridge was not attached to the guitar. Decades ago, I cleaned it up with Murphy's wood oil soap and Old English wood oil, and strung it with the lightest acoustic strings I could find. I just set the bridge in the same spot it looked to have originally been in, but did not "attach it", (with glue or what ever), because it was obvious that it had never been "attached". I used the "lightest strings" I could find, because the bridge was so tall on the arched topped beast, that the resulting high "action" made it nearly impossible to play beyond the 5th fret.  Some in my family claimed that, "it is a rhythm guitar, and Grandpa only played chords on it below the 5th fret.", (a "Three chords and the Truth" guitar). I would love to put a lower bridge on it, and somehow work out the intonation issues with said change, but I'm not sure if that is possible/practical.  It is a beautiful instrument, but the light strings destroy it's tone, and it's hard to play even with light strings. Any thoughts?

Ok, you have a floating bridge; and it seems you need it lowered. It may be possible depending on the design. 

Assuming you find or adapt a bridge to the suitable height, you then need to position it for intonation. The 1st pic in my last post is such a bridge. I have marked the position with a small piece of tape. Lucky that guitar has a poly finish. I wouldn't try that on nitro. A pencil mark will do as well. Oh you can use whatever gauge strings you want too.

Of course you have to find the correct position also. The 'rough' position is measured from the 12th fret. Measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret and use the same measurement to position the bridge from the 12th fret. Do that for the middle of the bridge. Then you may need to angle the bridge to correct for gauge difference. It depends on whether your bridge is compensated design too.

check this vid for better info

 

[Sheepdog1969]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:43 AM, merciful-evans said:

Ok, you have a floating bridge; and it seems you need it lowered. It may be possible depending on the design. 

Assuming you find or adapt a bridge to the suitable height, you then need to position it for intonation. The 1st pic in my last post is such a bridge. I have marked the position with a small piece of tape. Lucky that guitar has a poly finish. I wouldn't try that on nitro. A pencil mark will do as well. Oh you can use whatever gauge strings you want too.

Of course you have to find the correct position also. The 'rough' position is measured from the 12th fret. Measure the distance from the nut to the 12th fret and use the same measurement to position the bridge from the 12th fret. Do that for the middle of the bridge. Then you may need to angle the bridge to correct for gauge difference. It depends on whether your bridge is compensated design too.

check this vid for better info

#1. Can I say I love you without it sounding weird?

#2. This vid and the info you provided gave me more data than 30+ years of begging for help elsewhere, which resulted in nada.

#3. I found a friend who is willing to 3D scan my existing "floating bridge" and 3D print a new bridge with the correct height needed to achieve a playable "action", whilst maintaining the appropriate width/string separation and string seating depth that matches the original bridge. He can also incorporate an adjustable mechanism (x 6) that allows for fine intonation adjustments, patterned off my Gibson bridges, insuring accurate intonation regardless of string gauge or environmental variations that may effect OAL (over all length) of strings from nut to bridge, such as swelling of the arch top due to humidity, (or the opposite), which would effect intonation. Said printed bridge could potentially be used as a template for a "wood/material" correct bridge, that could be "routed out/carved", if needed for tone issues resulting from said "plastic" 3D printed bridge. (Obviously, some "trial and error" is to be expected.)

#4. Unfortunately, it appears that there is some separation of the back of the guitar from the side structure around the upper/neck area of the guitar, and lesser (but similar) separation of the arch top from the side structure in a few places, as well. I am currently using a high quality wood oil, applied to the entire guitar, to "hydrate" the wood, (a process that I will repeat over and over, until the wood becomes less "brittle/dry"), to see if I can get it to relax into it's original position for "re-gluing". A "steam" (on the body only), may ultimately be required to do said. 

#5.  If the body repairs go well, a Luthier friend suggested that I may want to forgo the bridge mods and simply make this a dedicated "slide guitar", rather than going thru all the trouble to modify the bridge. I will provide an update as the repairs progress.

PS  -  My Luthier friend is having trouble finding a "floating pick guard" and an associated pick-up that attaches to said, for a similar guitar. Apparently these pick-guards and pick-ups are hard to acquire. Anyone with some leads on these could help him!

[merciful-evans]

2 hours ago, Sheepdog1969 said:

PS  -  My Luthier friend is having trouble finding a "floating pick guard" and an associated pick-up that attaches to said, for a similar guitar. Apparently these pick-guards and pick-ups are hard to acquire. Anyone with some leads on these could help him!

When I replace my pick-guard pickup my luthier had to adapt the fitting on the pickguard. This was replacing the chinese 'copy' with a Kent Armstrong one. A guitar this old will need a similar approach I think. You existing pickguard may be suitable to adapt. Its not just case of buying 'off the shelf'. 

Quote

#4. Unfortunately, it appears that there is some separation of the back of the guitar from the side structure around the upper/neck area of the guitar, and lesser (but similar) separation of the arch top from the side structure in a few places, as well. I am currently using a high quality wood oil, applied to the entire guitar, to "hydrate" the wood, (a process that I will repeat over and over, until the wood becomes less "brittle/dry"), to see if I can get it to relax into it's original position for "re-gluing". A "steam" (on the body only), may ultimately be required to do said. 

Careful with overdoing the oiling. I'm no expert but assess whether it needs repair, and if so the cost. I have a split in an acoustic guitar that has not impacted on tone at all. You may be able to live with it hopefully.

[fortyearspickn]

Completely irrelevant info  - arch top acoustics during the War (World War II)  had wooden trapeze tailpieces.  I'd guess ebony for the pictures I've seen. 

[Larsongs]

I have Guitars with & without Trapeze Tailpiece.. Also, Guitars with different Bridge setups & some with Bigsby’s & other dkinds of Tremelo’s..

It’s hard to say that the Trapeze causes a different Sound because there are so many other factors to consider.. For example I have 2 Casino’s with Trapeze.. Each sounds different but I think it’s because of the Pickups more than anything.. Both are Gibson USA P90’s also..