More Hot Water

[GIANTRobOT420]

UH OH

[ShredAstaire]

HA....also can be read like:

 

There's a big lawsuit against us for our high prices.....but yeah...this lawsuit will likely raise prices.

 

D'oh!

[Shnate McDuanus]

Whoops!

[Hector Arcadius]

HA....also can be read like:

 

There's a big lawsuit against us for our high prices.....but yeah...this lawsuit will likely raise prices.

 

D'oh!

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly that!

[djroge1]

Quote from the site

 

"Gibson believes in the American system of justice and believes that, through that system, the claims against Gibson will show to have no merit. Unfortunately, that process will undoubtedly result in high costs to many organizations that, like Gibson, strive to provide music lovers everywhere with quality instruments and aggressively compete on price."

 

There ya go, they are telling us right there that they now have a reason to raise their prices.

 

I would love to have a new LP but I don't want to fork out that much $$.

 

I'm saving for another Harley and I believe that will hold its value better than a current Gibson.

[duane v]

I'm saving for another Harley and I believe that will hold its value better than a current Gibson.

 

that's what people said about my orphan SG200 back in the 70's..... I paid $97 for it in 1974..... I've been offered as high as $1100 for the orphan.

 

you'll just never know

[FennRx]

buy used. gibson is their own worst enemy.

[charlie brown]

HA! Guess we're not the only ones, pissed about the prices of "the finest musical instruments"

(made in this country, anyway), these days. When a '61 SG reissue (for just one instance) almost

doubled in price, in less than 18 months...that's not inflation! And Fender?? Rickenbacker...seen

THOSE prices, lately? Wheweee! They're using the Government's ideas, about fixing their troubles...

just pass it off, to the tax payer/consumer! Guess my lusting for an ES-345 and VOS SG will be nothing

more, than a fantasy or "dream," now? ;>b ;>(

 

CB

[djroge1]

that's what people said about my orphan SG200 back in the 70's..... I paid $97 for it in 1974..... I've been offered as high as $1100 for the orphan.

 

you'll just never know

 

That is true - in the past I've been offered over 2 grand for my 78 Les Paul I bought in 1979 for less than $300.

 

But I still believe a HD is a better investment over all.

[RichCI]

I'm gonna get railed for this but...

 

When you look at Gibson's standard model guitars - not "limited" editions or signature models or relics or whatever - like a Les Paul Standard, they're not really any more expensive than they have been for decades when you account for inflation.

 

Granted, some of their models seem to be priced absolutely ridiculously. Here are my favorite examples:

 

Gibson Les Paul Jr. - $1199 MSRP

Les Paul Studio Faded - $1199 MSRP

 

How in the world can a Junior be the same price as a faded Studio? If you're looking for the most bang for your buck, the Studio is a much better value; if I were looking for just one guitar, it's no contest unless you really want a P90 but, even then, you get just one pickup with the Junior.

[tazzboy]

buy used. gibson is their own worst enemy.

 

Big Plus 1.

[Stew]

I just paid $3k (tax included out the door) for pictured CS336 from Sam Ash... was it really a good deal or maybe just a good deal on over inflated prices? Well I love her and that's all that matters I guess... but I also like to save MONEY when I can!

[L5Larry]

From a business AND legal standpoint, I'm sure this stems from the shakeup a few years ago of their dealer rules and regulations, along with the restrictions on advertising, photo and price publishing, etc.

[stevef]

Hmmmmmm. Your (US folks anyway) tax dollars at work protecting your retail purchasing power.

Attorneys, court costs, investigators, etc.

Who gets to pay for this either way in the end?

[charlie brown]

Interesting year, for Gibson, according to this source. Reliable...who knows?

 

FrugalGuitarist.com's Notes

 

A Horrible Year for Gibson Guitars...Share

Monday, December 21, 2009 at 9:23am

 

You've likely seen the stories regarding the illegally imported rosewood in the news lately and perhaps even heard the internet rumors of Peavey trying to purchase Gibson (which Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz denied back in October). Do a quick search regarding Gibson quality on any number of internet forums and you'll see a great many posts regarding questionable quality especially considering the top self price tag. So what's going on at Gibson?

 

In my opinion, Gibson is in serious trouble and likely won't make it though 2010 without some type of acquisition likely by a foreign group of investors. Why such a pessimistic prediction? Well, consider the following chain of events which have occurred in 2009:

 

 

 

March 20, 2009 - Gibson Lays of 50: Citing a 20 percent drop in worldwide sales, Gibson announces the layoffs of 50 employees.

 

March 23, 2009 - Gibson Increases Layoffs: Just days after announcing a 50 employee layoff, Gibson announces the layoff of an additional 70 employees.

 

July 17, 2009 - Gibson Sits Out Nashville NAMM Show: While attendance on a whole was down at the 2009 Summer NAMM show, being in Nashville home to Gibson guitars, you'd think they would have made the trip across town. Is this a sign that business is so bad that they couldn't afford to participate? Many of their competitors including Fender were there. The company has also announced it would not participate in the 2010 Winter NAMM show.

 

August 12, 2009 - Les Paul Dies: One must wonder the impact of Les Paul's passing on the company. Their biggest money maker by far bears the guitarist's name and while Les Paul the guitar has taken on an identity of it's own, this was a significant lose for the company.

 

September 23, 2009 - Gibson Proudly Announces, Then Retracts Hendrix Model: In a case of ultimate hypocrisy, Gibson announced a Stratocaster inspired Jimi Hendrix signature model complete with photos on their site showing the first batch of guitars in different states of construction on their website. After nearly a week of pretty much universal condemnation of the product on the internet, Gibson removes all traces of the guitar from their website. This was the most egregious example of a string of new products which seem completely out of touch with consumer expectations.

 

October 1, 2009 - Juszkiewicz Denies Rumors of Peavey Purchase - In a prepared statement to UK trade magazine MI Pro, Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz denied the rumor of the company being acquired by Peavey. However, reading into the statement are some interesting clues regarding the state of the company. In the statement, Juszkiewicz alludes to being affected by the economic downturn (back in March the company stated sales were down 20%) and the debt leveraged financial state of the company. Honestly, the very fact that this rumor was even addressed is curious and reads like a public relations move to make the company appear stronger than it actually is or a smokescreen to cover a failed deal. New rumors have surfaced on the internet of a new yet unnamed entity in acquisition talks with Gibson...

 

October 29, 2009 - Moody's Downgrades Gibson: Predicting weak 2009 performance, continued delays in issuing it's audited 2008 financials, and lack of access to revolving credit Moody's downgraded the Gibson corporation and warned of further downgrades. What does this mean? Credit institutions consider a company's credit rating (as graded by Moody's and others) when a company applies for credit. A lower credit rating means less access to credit and high interest rates. CEO Henry Juszkiewicz has admitted that the company is debt leveraged currently and the lower credit rating will result in less access to debt to grow...or keep the company afloat...

 

November 17, 2009 - Gibson Factory Raided: Federal agents raided the Gibson production facilities in Nashville seizing wood, guitars, files and computers as part of an investigation regarding the illegal importation of Rosewood from Madagascar. As a result, CEO Henry Juszkiewicz takes a leave of absence from the Rainforest Alliance.

December 16, 2009 - Gibson Named Among the Worst Companies in America to Work For: In it's annual best and worst list of companies in America to work for published by Glassdoor.com, Gibson raked among the worst. Reading though some of the reviews of the company by it's employees, it's no surprise that the CEO Henry Juszkiewicz scores an abysmal 13% approval rating with the overall company rating an extremely poor 1.9 out of 5. When a company's employees are this unhappy, it's no wonder Gibson guitars have a growing reputation for inconsistent quality...

[charlie brown]

Another interesting (but sad) story, regarding Gibson and the "Good Old Days."

 

Gibson Guitar's James "Hutch" Hutchins Leaves Behind a Legacy All His Own

01.26.2010

 

 

Nashville, Tennessee…January 26, 2010….One of Gibson Guitar’s most accomplished and dedicated luthiers, James “Hutch” Hutchins, who spent 45 years at Gibson, passed away from an undisclosed illness surrounded by his family last evening. “Hutch” as many of his Gibson friends called him, had a career that’s spanned two states, three changes of ownership, and thousands of priceless Gibson guitars. Hutch began his career in the original Kalamazoo, Michigan plant, making a name for himself there before transferring to Nashville in 1983. He had worked every job from maintenance to pattern making with an unflinching attention to detail and an abiding pride in the Gibson name. “Hutch” chose the Gibson family as his own often defining the company’s legacy, heritage and tradition by the many guitars and people he touched on a daily basis. He was 72.

 

Many a times while he walked the Gibson plant floors he would tell his fellow workers of his clear recollection of the day he was hired by Gibson on March 25, 1963. While working as a cab driver in Kalamazoo, Hutch stopped by Checker Cab to pick up his paycheck one afternoon, and spotted the Gibson smokestack billowing across the way. He said to his wife ‘I wonder what they do,” and the rest soon became history.

 

Though he didn’t play guitar Hutch was a well-trained machinist. His first interview for employment at Gibson was with Julius Bellson and Ted McCarty, two of Gibson’s most legendary executives, known for heading the company during the years that Gibson produced the Les Paul, ES-335, Flying V, Explorer, and the humbucker.

 

 

 

On his first day at Gibson in 1963, Hutch was assigned a work station nine benches down from “the senior guy at the front of the line, who had been there over 39 years.” He couldn’t have imagined then that his own longevity at the company would eventually surpass his boss’. Hutch often recalled the close-knit Gibson team that connected inside of work and out—on bowling teams, canoeing trips, and get-togethers that still exists today. Musical members of the staff even formed a couple bands, among them the venerable Green Valley Boys, fronted by Ron Allers, who worked for Gibson for 26 years.

 

During a part of Hutch’s tenure, Gibson was owned by the Chicago Musical Instrument Company, which acquired Gibson in early 1944. At the time there were nearly 1,000 employees stationed in several large plants in Kalamazoo but out of the 1,000 no one stood out more than “Hutch.” His longtime dedication would have him working double shifts, six days a week and always with a smile.

 

Blessed with the esteem of McCarty and Bellson, Hutch became the plant’s liaison for legendary artists who wanted custom guitars. He was integral to designing the Chet Atkins Country Gentleman, becoming friends with Atkins in the process. “Chet, I’ll build you whatever you want. You tell me what you want, and we’ll go from there’,” said Hutch recently. “I think that was the part that really hooked Chet on coming to Gibson—that we were willing to do whatever he wanted, much like we tried to do everyday.” Disenchanted after a partnership with Gretsch, Atkins met with Hutch over many a lingering lunch to determine the specs for the great Gibson signature model. During his tenure at Kalamazoo, Hutch saw the Atkins guitars through from design into their production in 1982. Over the years, Hutch also worked closely with archtop jazz giants like Howard Roberts, Johnny Smith, Wes Montgomery, and Herb Ellis to name a few.

 

In the meantime, CMI merged with Ecuadorian brewery ECI to form Norlin in 1969. Gibson’s new ownership signaled the beginning of a dark period in company history. “Norlin didn’t put anything in, just took everything out,” Hutch once said. “All they were after was money.” As the production naturally slowed, Hutch’s commitment to the company went unrattled. Over the years Hutch would spread the word of Gibson’s newfound dedication and commitment to quality when it was purchased in 1986 from Norlin by now Gibson CEO and Chairman Henry Juszkiewicz, Gibson President Dave Berryman, and Gary Zebrowski. Juszkiewicz rolled up his sleeves, and through hard work and determination, was able to restore the company to a position of unrivaled prominence in the industry. “Hutch was a remarkable man, with a talent all his own, said Henry Juszkiewicz, CEO and Chairman of Gibson Guitar. “His light will shine forever through every corner, every hall and with every team member of the company. His legacy will live on.”

 

Hutch was quoted in an interview a few years back as stating “Henry put every penny right back into it. This company didn’t grow by not putting a lot back in. Fortunately, when Henry bought Gibson he believed in the company and what it was going to take, which was the best people and the best wood. He said to me, ‘What do you need?,’ and I said, ‘Well, we need help,’ and Henry said, ‘Get ’em, and hire the best you can, So I did.”

 

Hutch’s dedication and newfound leadership in management from the new owners fostered a rebuilt Gibson with a highly skilled team and ramped up its production numbers. “Hutch” took great pride in showing anyone who would listen the carving instruments that were dated back to the turn of century yet still used to create some of the world’s best guitars. He took great pride in the product and his Gibson family. He never let the word “family” go away in anything he did. Hutch retired March 31, 2008.

 

“Hutch” loved to hunt and fish and spend time with his three grown sons, all of whom live in the Nashville area. He is survived by his wife Gail, sons Kim and Todd and grandsons Aaron and Jaimie. Many of Gibson team members and people across the industry agree that his contribution to the Gibson Guitar company was so incredible that it will take years to truly indentify all the ways he influenced it.

 

One can only imagine the depth of meaning in a recent quote Hutchins himself stated: “You’ve got to have pride. If you don’t have pride in what you’re doing, it’s not going to come out at the end of the line. Ain’t nobody ever gonna knock this name off,” he said, tapping the headstock of a nearby Custom Shop Les Paul. “I don’t know how much longer I’ll be around, but I know Gibson, and I know that’s a name that can’t be beat.”

[sexybeast14]

i love gibson but thier prices are way to high if the prices were reasonable like fenders i could have had a gibson instead of an epiphone (wich i love nonetheless) its so conflicting

[rocketman]

Well at least they aren't asking for a bailout...

[brundaddy]

I love the instruments and hate the corporation. Buy used.

[freak show]

I love the instruments and hate the corporation. Buy used.

 

+1

 

Here's a link to the USA Today interview with Henry that SOMEBODY :- quoted on the Gibson site:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-02-20-forum-gibson_x.htm

 

I wonder, if Gibson are going to delete the words of their very own CEO and owner...

 

:)

[Bender 4 Life]

Sad stories there, VERY sad..........but I can save Gibson, if they'd only listen.

1. FIRE 1/2 of your V.P.'s and Top Executive staff on grounds of non existing or at best dismal performance.

2. Tell the remaining 1/2 that if they don't get busy and take up the slack, you'll find execs. that WILL.

( I bet there are literally THOUSANDS of exec. caliber people, currently unemployed, that would be HAPPY to EARN a 6 figure salary)

3. Stop lying to the shareholders........tell them to be patient, or go belly up, THEIR choice.

4. Stop, Drop,& Roll, all these crazy, hairbrained "concept" guitars.......go back to building traditional, TOP QUALITY GIBSONS, the best guitars ever.

5. Fire the entire design team........they're insane.........LISTEN to older employees about designs.(they KNOW Gibsons!)

6. Split production modes.......$3000 & below, standard production, $3000 & above, special order only.

7. Make your guitars AFFORDABLE for people willing to pay a LITTLE extra for Gibson quality.

Lastly........ask YOURSELVES (Gibson Executives), If I were the average working class musician, supporting a family, would I be more likely to buy 1 American Gibson of now questionable quality, or 2-3 of the competitions American guitars (that don't SEEM to be having QC issues) for the same amount of money as 1 of ours?

 

Sincerely,

Love my Gibsons

[MojoRedFoot]

Glad I bought mine in 2008 before the prices went up.

 

My next one will be gently used.

[Hector Arcadius]

I truly hope that someone in Gibson, high on the chain, reads our comments, since we are proud Gibson Owners and lovers. And I will state my complains from the firm, stating at the beginning however that I firmly believe that Gibson is the best mass-producing guitar manufacturer on the planet, and I'm in love with their instruments and their sounds as from the first time I started truly listening to music:

 

 

1. Too many models saw the light of day in the past years, that were designed in a hurry, poorly constructed, just marketed, with the sole purpose to fetch cash in and that, IMHO, should never bear the Gibson name on their headstocks. Just to name a few: the goddess line, the BFGs (great sounds but not manufacturing), the Vixens and so on...

 

2. Models / versions of models that the working musician / devoted hobbyist would love to play and own, are not part of the standard line-up. Les Pauls with P90s, SGs with P90s for example...

 

3. Some great ideas / designs implemented only as small rubs / one-offs with infuriating prices and available only to few / mere collectibles: Les Paul silverbursts, Tribal Flying Vs and Explorers, some absolutely stunning colors of Les Pauls & SGs, etc...

 

 

4. The whole approach with Robots/ Dark Fire / Dusk Tigers:every year Gibson introduces a model, adding a couple of features to the last one, marketing them as ''collectibles'' with the only intention to create markets from them and fool customers to believe that they hold a piece of history being created at the moment. while every new model in this ''line'', automatically cancels the history value of the model it replaces.

 

5. Yes, pricing. It goes from over the top to simply infuriating to merely jokes.

 

6. Quality control. I've seen items that should have never left the factory. Not at this pricing at least...

 

 

Let me clarify that the above are merely MY OWN PERSONAL thoughts / ideas / critisims. No. I'm not a professional musician but I am a customer, an owner and I would like to own more Gibsons in the future, And I could be perfectly happy guitarist by owning nothing else but Gibsons. And that's exactly the reason I seriously wish someone from the management goes through the thread.

 

 

Thanks for the time anyway.

[Dazed]

Typically, aren't prices determined by the consumer for the most part? Some companies price their products for select markets like a Porsche or a Hyundai. Could Porsche be called for the same thing? How about Ralph Lauren or Debeers? The Diamond market has always been fixed.

 

I think I paid about $1000 for my Les Paul Std back in the 80's. I have seen people selling them for $1500-$1700. If you bought your Gibson years ago, it is one of only a handful of products that I can think of that actually appreciated. Today that has probably changed somewhat. But who knows what prices will be 20 years from now on a Gibson purchased today.

 

Personally I feel Gibson charges too much money now but the same is probably true for PRS and Fender. Many kids getting their first electrics want a Les Paul or an SG or whatever guitar their guitar god wields. Then parents face sticker shock. If you want the prices to go down, stop buying the product. With Gibson's history though, people will still buy regardless of the price because they are buying the name.

 

I stopped playing for years and sold my Les Paul. When I got back into it again, I debated on a new Les Paul. However the $2500 price just seemed a bit excessive to me since I was not sure how much I would play. I had a custom Carvin CT6M built for around $1600. Had the Gibson been in the same ballpark, I would have bought the Gibson. I can't help but wonder how many others were in the same boat?

[milod]

I'll put in my two bits here...

 

Gibson's strength has been the design of the instruments when followed up with high quality parts and construction.

 

One partial weakness is today's assumption by consumers that wood bits made with significant handwork can be as perfect as a stamped piece of plastic. Ain't gonna happen. If you look for "imperfection," you'll find it in a "perfect" handmade guitar from a top luthier. That, and expectations of individualized setup from a production guitar, are problems of image that are largely a matter of lousy PR concepts.

 

I keep wondering how it would work with an ad campaign of: "See this slub? I know real craftsmen made my guitar and tuned the woods to sing. You don't see that on a machine-built axe."

 

Internal Gibson PR? Somebody's apparently forgotten that the work itself is the biggest job satisfier, not even the paycheck. The biggest dis-satisfier? Micromanagement and a feeling that the worker isn't respected. That's been shown in management surveys for years.

 

Frankly, right now I tend to think that the best guitar bargains I've seen on "new" are Epis. Why? Gibson design, decently built and rational price points. Yup, I think "the real thing" Gibsons have too high a price tag for me to personally consider right now.

 

I do worry a bit about an anti-business federal agency and assumptions of "X" in terms of overall business decisions. The proof should be in the pudding. Does the company do what it's supposed to do, in this case, design, build and market guitars to make a profit for shareholders and, in a "morality" sense, to pay its employees a day's pay for a day's work?

 

I dunno. I think stockholder expectations and "financing," tend to be driving a lotta business nowadays and to me the result is a lack of focus by lots of "companies" in what it is that they do to create money.

 

m