COME ON HENRY!!! Gibson gets D minus...

[cwness]

The last new Gibson I bought was in 75 was a 55-75 Special and it had a bad

neck. QC is not even close to what it should be, we see it on here almost every

day so this BBB D- should not be a surprise. I have my own business and it

a customer has a complaint I make sure he is satisfied no matter what. In business

bad new gets around a lot faster then anything good you have done.

 

CW

[Flight959]

Why are people sitting up and listening now? Gibson has been pumping out bad workmanship or poor QC or whatever you wanna call it for sometime now... I have had problems with a new Gibson, and as much as I was shocked the guitar even left the factory I was thankful for Gibson Customer Service Team who were only too happy to help...

 

I wonder what alot of people would make of big corperations if they dug around reading about them all the time.

 

As much as I think Gibson has its failures, for me they still get it right too.. and their product gets me pumped!!

 

Just saying,

 

Regards

[Flight959]

BTW Great thread NEO,

[Cruznolfart]

So I guess lunch in the Gibson Cafeteria is OUT of the question!!

 

There's always Givson's, a very nice Chinese restaurant across the street.

[NeoConMan]

I dunno.

I was just appalled to see that BBB rating - I honestly had no idea.

 

Imagine the kid who has parents who support his playing, and he's damned good at it.

He gets good grades, stays out of trouble, and keeps his room clean.

He's played in contests and such, done some small shows where everybody raves about him.

Has a bright future in music, a shot at actually living the dream.

 

So he tells Mom & Dad he wants a new Gibson Les Paul Custom.....

 

Now Dad is trying to find out from his friends at work why a LP Custom is so damned pricey.

Mom looks at the budget and tries to figure out how to make it happen.

Both of them get on the web to learn more about them and they find the BBB rating of D minus.

 

Now what?

 

Do they make him settle, and buy him Fender?

Or do they take the advice of ONE SALESMAN who says "Yeah, well, have you looked at Paul Reed Smith?"

 

What if I had done that 20 years ago?

What if I had bought over a dozen Paul Reed Smiths, and only one Gibson - instead of the other way around?

 

I waited over two years to get my PRS Custom 24, and I was plenty pissed off.

When I finally got it, I had in my hands more than they ever promised.

They delivered - in spades.

 

I've ordered guitars from Gibson too, and it turned out great, but how many people haven't been so lucky?

I've NEVER heard PRS having that sort of QC trouble.

 

 

In a nutshell, I doubt I'll ever order a guitar from either factory again - but for very different reasons.

PRS, because of the excruciating wait.

Gibson, because it's a fxcking crapshoot.

 

[Blackie]

get me .........the generals chicken...........mmm...........

[NeoConMan]

Hah!

Funny how nobody can pronounce General Tsao - not even the people who work there!

 

[crying]/

 

 

I think I'll have Chinese tonite Blackie.

Thanks!

[pauline]

Interesting thread.........

 

 

Just one thought about the quality of Gibson

 

Maybe there are some problems out there, but I think if your dealer (local or internet) is doing his job well, no crappy Instrument should reach you.

My preferred dealer really checks every instrument - the cheapest and the highend ones -before shipping.

I think this is the right way, 'cause we have contracts with our dealers and not with Gibson.

 

If there are real problems, the dealers have to act with Gibson, 'cause they are losing their customers.

If your dealer is offering you a 30-day money-back guarantee and a 3-year warranty, no one of us should have a problem.

 

The Dealer speaks for hundrets or thousands of (his) customers!

 

Just my personal opinion.

 

Peter

[NeoConMan]

My dealer in Phoenix, Bizarre Guitar, offered me plenty of insight into this very issue.

They've shipped plenty of Gibsons back to the factory.

 

He's an independent.

He can't take them back later, and try to resell as new (illegal) or take the loss by selling it used.

He won't mess with it, he calls Gibson and tells them it's coming back.

 

Most dealers, and ALL of the Big Box chains will refuse to bother with it.

Somebody will be dumb enough to buy it.

[tartanbeastie]

this thread could have a patch or link to a previous thread regarding the purpose of gibson...

for most of us who have bought gibson, i'm guessing we have done so because a gibson guitar was our dream guitar or the guitar that our heroes played.

It is dissapointing to read so many have had trouble and dont rate the business, service or guitars anymore, I can only speak from personal experience and say that i love my gibson sg and have had no trouble with it. as for customers services.. never had to deal with them but i know i would first take the guitar back to the store i bought it.

[Blackie]

Yeah seems it is kind of similar to Harley Davidson enthusiasts, they had (AMF) and have, their bad years

but for some they still have to have one.

 

Others make faster more reliable bikes .............and possibly more consistant and problem free guitars...........

 

But to be taken seriously you have to own a few of the real deal ..........before you go all exotic.

[charlie brown]

Well, in all honesty, every Gibson guitar I bought, was as near perfect, do to having a good dealer

that made sure all was as great, as I could have hoped for. However, the last Gibson I purchased,

was in 2002. I still have couple, on my "Bucket List," but...if what I've seen recently, is ANY indication,

of what can be expected on a consistant level, of their New guitars, I'll be bying "used, but not abused."

The dealer I buy from, is an independent, family owned business, as well. They never sell a bad guitar!

They even set it up, per your preferences, and supply new strings, and an extra pack, of those, as well.

They too, send back any guitar that doesn't meet with their approval. So, Peter's right on, about dealing

with a great dealer. Still...a LOT of what I've seen, in other stores is God Awful, especially for the price

point! Terrible, really. They (truly) should have never left the factory, in that condition. These have

been much more than a loose part, here and there. ;>b

 

CB

[milod]

Okay... I probably shouldn't, but...

 

First, BBB is more than anything else, itself a business. It's one that I have very mixed emotions about. It makes money by selling memberships to other businesses. If a business operation does not purchase a membership, one almost can guarantee that it will receive a poor rating one way or another.

 

Second, I don't want to sound as if I'm defending either Gibson the corporation or any officers or employees thereof. But the BBB ain't who I'd rely on.

 

As to QC issues, it's a lot easier to see on a guitar that in a car like... Hmmmm... Toyota. Yeah, I agree that a store, with a storefront or a Web front, should do sufficient checking on an instrument or anything else before it is sold or shipped. That's regardless whether the manufacture is wonderful or horrid at a given period of time.

 

I hate to say this, too, but I think Gibson in this case may not be the villain but yet another canary in the mine shaft reflecting the "bad air" in the whole economy. I have a feeling that a lot of companies are falling far short of traditional quality expectations as well as sales figures. I personally have a problem with any firm producing any sort of product that does not maintain quality by its own standards - but I think a lotta companies today are doing just that to their own detriment and that of the general world economy.

 

Also, note that Gibson functionally won a patent infringement lawsuit against Ibanez in the 1970s over designs. Whether such is appropriate or not is, I guess, up to a company deciding if it's worth attorney fees.

 

As I said, I'm so far from a Gibson dealer that I ain't seen one new in a story in decades. But there are criticisms I take seriously, such as from someone who got a lemon and was treated badly, and praise from those who weren't.

 

m

[dem00n]

Guitars are still good.

Why do i give a **** again?

[deepblue]

Yep, and the guys who ruin the company image cash in the biggest bonus. Usually right before they jump ship.

 

Plunder and Scuttle is the business model of the 21st Century.

 

 

Its a shame but you are so right.

[milod]

Yeah... I think the problem with many, many current corporate entities is that they end up with various levels of "management" being ordered to cut costs which means people. At a certain point those "managers" see that their own jobs are considered of little worth and there's an additional breakdown.

 

Then those with sufficient initial juice to have a "parachute" keep squeezing until they see an end to what can be done to cut costs and keep a company going at a functional level and bail themselves.

 

Those who stay take the heat. Meanwhile so many have gone - frequently the more experienced who actually do the work of the corporate entity since cutting one experienced worker makes hiring a replacement worker cheaper - that there's not much to restore the corporate product or image.

 

In a sense this is likely worst in businesses that traditionally have relied on skilled workers in thousands of fields.

 

My fear personally is that whether or not that's Gibson's problem, it certainly is a problem internationally and especially in the more developed economies.

 

IMHO additionally, the larger the corporate entity that has products produced by skilled employees of any sort as opposed to robots mechanical or otherwise, the more likely the problem.

 

I'll freely admit my increasing degree of cynicism, but bureaucracies, governmental or "corporate," are self-perpetuating; businesses aren't. When businesses aren't, ain't it interesting how government bureaucracies grow regardless?

 

m

[charlie brown]

It's interesting too, that Rickenbacker has pretty much maintained it's quality, over the past decades,

and made it a point to do just that, even with their (sometimes amazingly) long waits. Neo mentioned

having to wait a long time, for his PRS. But, when he got it, it exceeded his expectations. Gibson..rarely

does that, anymore. Maybe, it's time they took Ric's and PRS's example, and keep the quality high, even

if it means we (consumers) have to wait, a bit longer. The ones that don't want to wait, can buy used,

or some other. They only do themselves, and their customers a disservice, by pumping out less that optimum

quality merchandise, and again, especially at the prices they're demanding.

 

CB

[Riffster]

Is this about the Gibson brand itself? or MusicYo.com?

 

Copy and paste from that page:

 

Products and Services of Gibson Guitar Corporation

According to BBB files, MusicYo is a division of Gibson Music Instruments. MusicYo offers the sale of musical goods over the internet.

 

BBB maintains a seperate file on Gibson Musical Instruments which is available upon request.

 

This company is engaged in the manufacture and sale of musical instruments.

[milod]

http://www.musicyo.com/thankyou.htm

 

It says it's a closed web page since 010109. That's over a year ago.

 

That page offers a jump to local dealers that gives this page:

 

http://www2.gibson.com/Support/Dealers/North-America.aspx

 

So... it sounds if nothing else that BBB is a bit behind the times.

 

Kramer guitars from Musicyo, eh?

 

m

[retrosurfer1959]

The BBB is only one complaint but sadly it's one of many terrible stories, what was it a month or so ago when they were rated the worst place to work in America. The only press you see about Gibson is bad press when was the last time anyone heard or read a article about what a great company it is or how great it is to work for like the other companies employee's all seem to brag about? I have several friend that work for Fender here in AZ at the corporate office site and love it say it is the best job they have ever had Gibson everybody loves the guitars period.

 

I still used to defend Gibson every time anything was said until my wife pointed out that I only buy the high end custom shop stuff and that I won't buy any Gibson no matter what without seeing it and playing it first, the only exception was the Traditional Pro and I went through three at MF before I got one I would keep. Gibson is still my favorite guitar bar none but it's interesting that my last four guitars were not Gibson and as my wife pointed out I would never buy one that I can't see.

 

Still love the guitars but it will be interesting to see if history remembers Henry as the savior of Gibson or just one of the list of villains that ran it into the ground. It seems to me that Gibson is one of those rare companies that is successful in spite of the leadership and not because of it.

[milod]

Retro...

 

As I said, I wasn't commenting to defend Gibson...

 

But here's another thought as to "why," perhaps. It comes from some personal observations.

 

Sometimes corporate entities with more than one "factory" or "product" will be in trouble with one, perhaps because of being overleveraged in buying the place when they really shouldn't have, and then the rest of the corporate structure takes a hit too.

 

Hey, I'd personally like to be in a position as a Gibson PR guy to be able to dig and find an answer beyond corporate bullpookey that is too popular with bureaucracies for us all.

 

But again, it's my observation that too often the bureaucracy becomes the business for a lot of managers.

 

It's also my observation that real public relations folks are a dying breed over the past 25-30 years to be replaced by copy writers who are good at that job, but not at explaining the corporation or defending it with a real explanation.

 

That also means that corporations and governmental agencies have taken the same route of lessening communication other than that necessary to do "X" priorities as opposed to truly "getting the word out."

 

I'm not really a Fender fan from a design standpoint, but if the company does a better job with employees? More power.

 

m

[tulsaslim]

My personal dealing with Gibson began in 1962. I'm pretty sure Ted McCarty was still president of the company. I fell in love with Gibson guitars and was as loyal as any customer could be.

I witnessed the first demise which eventually led to the Norlin takeover. I watched the quality go down and all the other terrible things that happened.

I was there when Henry bought the company. Brought the quality back but not before he doubled the prices for everything.

Still, things really looked up pretty much all the way through the '90s. Then, I dunno, I just started noticing things that were reminicent of bad times past. Horror stories of terrible service. Guitar models that , to me, seemed idiotic (reverse flying V?). Other, little things. $49 t-shirts. Little stuff like that that just seemed to show contempt for the customer.

I, too, can tell you stories of GREAT customer service from Gibson but I will admit it was a long time ago.

[Lowdown]

[milod]

Lowdown...

 

I like the poster. Unfortunately I think darned few "cowboys" outside of the rangeland of our respective nations believe any more in "riding for the brand."

 

I was taught to do so throughout all of my youth, and taught unfortunately by experience while still in my teens that such outlook is not necessarily felt by very many "brands" nowadays. When I was 16-18, that was true mostly in urban areas. Today, it's encroaching everywhere, I fear.

 

It's sad. Wyoming, USA, "the cowboy state," is going so far as to seek a "cowboy way" of integrity resolution in its state legislature. But I think even in Wyoming, from personal experience, a person's word doesn't seem to be all that good if money is involved.

 

That last is the bottom line. Or perhaps I'm simply an aging idealist.

 

As one raised that a handshake is a contract, I'm glad I won't be around much more than another decade or two. When I sold my first car at age 13 for my Dad's car dealership, I knew that my handshake would be honored even had I made a mistake. Luckily I didn't. <grin>

 

That sort of integrity seems lost in the international corporate world.

 

m

[zigzag]

There is never an excuse to let quality slide. A company is only as good as its reputation, and its reputation is what suffers with bad product. What I've seen in the company I work for is that, in our own economic recovery plan, management has addressed reduced sales by cutting out dead weight and run leaner. That's what recessions do for a business. In a business like Gibson is in, you cut production, not quality, and raise prices. You buy smarter and reduce waste. Gibson has already proved that their name sells, regardless of price. Unfortunately it seems that Gibson is not motivated to care about quality, the customer, their reputation, or their dealerships.

 

The only authorized dealership in my area is Guitar Center. There have been others, but they either dropped Gibson or went out of business. I bought my LP Studio by mail order in '98, and it is flawless, although when it arrived the lead/rhythm toggle switch was busted due to poor packaging and rough handling. Easily repaired. I bought my ES-335 from GC and I returned two of them because of neck problems. The Gibsons I play at GC are mostly garbage. I think the demos are all returns. As much as I love Gibson guitars, I'm not sure I'll buy another one.